Talk:Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements

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 Treaty of Waitangi claims and settlements was the New Zealand Collaboration of the Fortnight from 16 July, to 30 July 2006
For details on how the article improved, see the NZCOTF history
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Contents

[edit] Term

The term was coined long before Brash came along, I think Winston called it the "Waitangi Grave Train" numerous times in the 1990s. --Midnight tonight 09:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought that too. I'm sure it was a Peters invention. --Lholden 09:52, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that it is completely inappropriate and offensive that the term 'grievance industry' has been used here. Is there some way that it can be removed so that it doesn't come up on a relevance search? I did a search for 'Treaty Waitangi' and the 'grievance industry' came up in the search. I'm absolutely disgusted that some one would have the audacity to use such a value-laden and misrepresenting phrase in wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.57.32 (talk • contribs)

In both instances in the article where the term is used, it is in quotes and cited from verifiable sources. That is what is required for inclusion in Wikipedia. --Lholden 07:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV dispute

Brian queried why I removed a large part of this article. This was simply because the text was virtually all POV, and while some of the claims were sourced, objectively reading Don Brash's Orewa speech, the claims made by this article have little to do with the content of Dr Brash's speech, or the alleged "Treaty of Waitangi Greivance Industry". --Lholden 10:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Nothing to do with it? That's nonsense. I included the claims because they were examples of claims that the general public would consider frivolous. There is no reason why they need to be quoted directly from Don Brash's speech.

Note, I said "little to do with" not 'nothing to do with'. This article is meant to be about a term coined by Don Brash in his Orewa speech (although that point is a moot one also), and thus is not a place to state POV on Maori claims. If you want to do that, can I suggest editing the Waitangi Tribunal article instead? --Lholden 22:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
This article, in its current form, does not meet Wikipedia's NPOV (Neutral Point of View) policy. The article seriously misrepresents the Orewa Speech by Don Brash from which the term (which is the subject of the article) may have been coined. This article uses emotive language (such as "disgust" or "evil" or "kingdom come"), and is heavily weighed towards a single point of view. --Lholden 23:01, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
The title is POV as well. Could this article be broadened into an article on the debate surrounding the role of the Treaty in modern day NZ? --Midnighttonight 01:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I am aware that the title is POV as well. There is little alternative. I created this page for viewers who want to know what the term means and what has caused New Zealanders (including Don Brash and myself) to think that such a term is justified. I'm not sure how I can put in both sides of the argument: - perhaps I could put in some claims that I think ARE justified (if indeed I actually find such a claim). If you would like to do an article about what the Treaty of Waitangi means to New Zealanders today, I won't obstruct you.
I think you're missing the issue here: this article should be on the term itself, not any claims that are seen as unjustifiable. I note that the Taupo claim is actually mentioned by the Treaty of Waitangi article. --Lholden 04:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I've taken reference to the Lake Taupo issue out of the Treaty of Waitangi article because it's nothing to do with Treaty claims or rights. It's to do with what the rights of the owner of the lakebed (Ngati Tuwharetoa, thanks to a government grant in 1992) are to restrict use of the space above it, under general law. If reference to that is going to be included anywhere, it should be under a general heading of opposition to Maori rights in New Zealand. Tirana 06:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I've also added background from the Treaty of Waitangi page to give a little more context, as well as links to the various political parties' Treaty policy. Having had a glance at them, I don't think it's accurate to characterise support for Treaty settlements down party lines the way the original text does - most parties support in principle the idea that the Crown give redress for historical wrongs, but differ about what the wrongs that need recognising are, and how much and what kind of redress should be given. Tirana 08:07, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion

Really this article has no value and linking it to serious articles attempting to provide NPOV analysis of NZ politics hurts those articles. An article on Treaty of Waitangi claims and there perception by NZ public could however be done in a NPOV manner. I thinks this article should be deleted.

Either deleted or reworked from scratch so it's encyclopedic rather than a soapbox. There's a short section in the main Treaty of Waitangi article that outlines the issues in simple terms which I think is sufficient in scope. If people want a special page on the claims and what people think about them, it needs a far better approach than a run-down of talkback complaints and press releases. Suggested headings could include an description of the various claims lodged at the Waitangi Tribunal, what the Tribunal has said about them, how the governments have responded, settlements that have been negotiated, politicians' voting on the settlements, then press statements and so on. Including ones from a Maori perspective. Or the above could be merged into an article on race relations in New Zealand, which could then incorporate non-Treaty race relations issues like the foreshore and seabed. Tirana 01:14, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Treaty of Waitangi Grievance Industry --Midnighttonight 01:18, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can someone tell me where I can find sources to back this up?

There are various points I would like to add to the article, but can't because I don't know of any websites to back this up. For instance, I am aware that there are few if any Maoris who are purely of Maori ancestry, which causes some New Zealanders to question why a Maori with European ancestry should be able to launch a claim over the actions of supposedly evil European settlers. I also believe that what happened in the New Zealand wars is unlikely to have anything to do with why the Maoris are economically less well off today: - I believe this is because they are a bunch of dole bludgers, as Kiri Te Kanawa once said. Another complaint I have with the system is the proportion of Maori ancestry required to claim benefits aimed at Maoris: - my cousins are 1/16th Maori, but my cousin was able to apply for a university scholarship for Maoris despite his minuscule proportion of Maori ancestry. Does anyone know where I can find something on the internet showing that you can launch such a claim even if your proportion of Maori ancestry is that small for instance? Does anyone know of any other websites that would back up the points raised. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.100.53.13 (talk • contribs) .

you are on your own really. But I would hold back on contributing to this article, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Treaty of Waitangi Grievance Industry. Furthermore, have a read of WP:TROLL and WP:NPOV as some of your comments could be concieved as breaching those. --Midnighttonight 22:15, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
Also WP:Verifiability - whether or not what you believe is true, it shouldn't go in here unless it's verifiable, and that means reputable sources, not just websites. For example, there's no data around that backs up the "few if any full-blooded Maori" claim. --Tirana 23:10, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
The facts about the last full-blooded Maori having 'died' out are common knowledge, and has/is reported. Brian | (Talk) 00:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
define 'full-blooded'. that's where the problem comes from. furthermore, a source would still be needed as it is a rather controversial statement. the source should be neutral, ie. not Donny B. --Midnighttonight 00:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Just because people say it doesn't make it true. It's unverifiable - nobody records ethnicity in those terms. The census asks what ethnicity you are, not what race all your ancestors were. 8.2% of New Zealanders listed only Maori as their ethicity in the 2001 census according to this source. That's verifiable. --Tirana 00:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"By 1987 no full-blooded Maori existed any more. The overwhelming majority now calling themselves Maori were more than three quarters Pakeha." [1] and Hon. Peter Tapsell when he was Minister of Maori Affairs in a previous Labour Government...freely admitted that officially, the last known full-blooded Maori had died in 1944. [2] Brian | (Talk) 01:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

However: "Statistically speaking,... any person who is descended from a Maori is Maori for the purposes of the Maori Affairs Act, the Treaty of Waitangi Act, the Electoral Act and many other statutes... can choose for himself whether he regards himself or is to be regarded by others as a Maori.." " [3] Brian | (Talk) 01:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict)The second comes from a forum (unverifable) entitled: "Another Example of Maori abuse of the "Treaty of Waitangi"". While the first comes from Michael Bassett who is about as reliable on these things as Fox News. Have blood tests been done? Can this be proven beyond reasonable doubt? Or is it just theory? The census statistic provides a much more reliable look at things in that it is easily verifable. (although I must say I don't like Brian Easton at all, takes all criticism far too personally and then spleen vents at whoever gave it).--Midnighttonight 01:21, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
I've done the same google search and found lots of people claiming the one or the other - one guy reckons the last time census asked the question in terms of blood quota, back in the 70s, there were 20,000 full-blooded Maori and they can't all be dead yet. Some guy on the internet's not a reputable source, though. Neither would Brian Easton be, except that he's quoting from the census and that can be double checked. What you can say is "Some politicians (cite) have justified their opposition to addressing Maori grievances by asserting that there are few or no full-blooded Maori left. There are no statistics available to prove or disprove this claim. However, some Maori (cite) object to framing the debate in those terms on the grounds that..." etc. --Tirana 03:57, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, that’s the only way we can do it. btw I was not supporting or against the claim about maori blood, I was just been the devil’s advocate Brian | (Talk) 04:37, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reading Assignment

James Belich: 'Making Peoples', 'The New Zealand Wars' Claudia Orange: 'The Treaty of Waitangi'

Don Brash may have admitted that he crafts his rhetoric without having read some of the most important books about NZ history, and frankly Don and his wiki legion have less knowledge of NZ history than highschool history students. Until you have read something other than blogs your understanding and capacity to contribute will be significantly limited.

I'm the annon user who nominated this for deletion, frankly if incorporated into an encyclopaedic article regarding Treaty claims the extent to which this view is given should be a couple of paragraphs under criticism.

I would also recommend reading about political populism to help better understand Brash;s Orewa speech.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.153.86.99 (talk • contribs) .

Join in the debate then at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Treaty of Waitangi Grievance Industry, and think about getting an account, it gives you much better ability to do things. --Midnighttonight 00:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This is an important term used in NZ politics, it needs a mention. Brian | (Talk) 02:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Claudia Orange's "An Illustrated History of the Treaty of Waitangi" has a couple of very good chapters on the development of the settlement process and the politics around it - it's very current so covers up to the Orewa speech and the foreshore hikoi. It's not too academic to read either. I'd recommend that as a starting point for the revision. --Tirana 04:10, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Jon Johansson's Orewa and the Rhetoric of Illusion (Political Science, vol.56, no.2, Dec 2004)[4] covers Orewa quite well. --Midnighttonight 04:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
A link or a reference to the Johansson article sounds helpful - perhaps add one to the Orewa page as well, if it's not already there. I'm aware that his writing on the subject has been criticised as POV, though. It might be better to add it as context/debate rather than use it as the main source. I can think of a couple more: Doug Graham's Trick or Treaty and Belgrave, Kawharu and Williams' Waitangi Revisited: Perspectives on the Treaty of Waitangi. --Tirana 00:38, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

I've started with adding material about the history of Treaty grievances, which provides some helpful background. I've left the original article mostly intact, but taken out the sea routes to Polynesia issue, as I can't find any references to it anywhere and it triggers my bs-detector - the Privy Council enquires into legal claims, not Treaty issues, which are generally extra-legal. --Tirana 06:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

looks far better now --219.89.69.182 02:16, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms para

I've deleted the new para recently entered, that contained a lot of the material excised from the old Grievance Industry page. I'll go over it in detail here:

There are many New Zealanders, who agree in principle with the idea that it was wrong to seize land from the Maoris, but who dislike the implementation of the settlement process, feeling that some land claims are nonsensical. This has been the line that the National (in particular by Don Brash) and A.C.T. parties have tended to adopt in recent years.

This is redundant given the previous paragraphs, which also state and cite the positions of National and ACT (not A.C.T.). There's a bit of uncited stuff in there too - how do we know what "many New Zealanders" think without the sources to say so? "Maoris" isn't the proper plural of Maori, in any case.

There have been various Treaty of Waitangi claims that have caused these parties consternation. One claim was for the sea routes between New Zealand and Polynesia, which went as high as the Privy Council.

This was removed from the old Grievance Industry page because it was uncited, and I could find no record of any such case. The Privy Council has no jurisdiction over cases that are purely based on the Treaty, in any case.

In another claim, Taupo iwi Ngati Tuwharetoa attempted to impose a levy on people using the airspace above Lake Taupo for bungee jumps[5].

Not a Treaty claim, but related to common law rights arising from the ownership of the lakebed, as the commentator in the cite points out. Just because the landowner concerned is a Maori organisation doesn't mean their rights arise from the Treaty.

In another claim, six Iwi (Ngati Kuri, Ngati Wai, Te Rarawa, Ngati Porou, Ngati Kahungunu and Ngati Koata), in Wai 262, claimed that the Maoris were entitled to a cut of profits derived from scientific research done on native New Zealand fauna[6].

This is a Treaty claim, but the assertion about a cut of profits isn't supported by the cite, which is about the cost of consultation.

Another recent claim concerns New Zealand's water supplies. The Tainui, Ngai Tahu, Tuwharetoa and Whanganui Iwi have launched a campaign to put much of New Zealand's water supplies under Maori control [7].

It's a political campaign concerning water ownership, but it's unclear whether it's an actual claim about to be lodged at the Waitangi Tribunal or legal action based on aboriginal title, and what they mean by control. It looks from the cite that it's more about forestalling other people from having ownership interests in water.

Yet another recent claim was launched by the Ngapuhi Iwi, which calls for the oral traditions of Maori elders to be given the same weighting in the judicial system as written evidence [8].

"Yet another" is POV. It's also an inaccurate representation of the cite. Ngapuhi have asked the Waitangi Tribunal that when it hears Ngapuhi's claims, it gives the oral history priority. That's not the same as talking about the rest of the judicial system. --Tirana 03:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Nice work, Tirana. I had thought that paragraph was a bit suss, but didn't know enough about it to correct it. I could have checked the references I suppose... --Helenalex 03:28, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
This is almost exactly the same material that was moved and edited down from an article named something like "The Treaty of Waitangi Grievance Industry", I suspect from the same anon editor. --Lholden 03:36, 24 April 2007 (UTC)