Talk:Traudl Junge

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[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 04:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

I like the quote very much and the external links are interesting but I request that normal layout guidelines are followed: quote should be moved to the bottom and external links have to be described, though my descriptions were probably too wordy. Thanks Andries 18:33, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Go for it then! A curate's egg 18:43, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Actor or actress

Wyss why do you think Maria Lara is an actor and not an actress - an actress is a female actor! The curate's egg 14:49, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Modern English usage avoids gendered job titles wherever possible. This has been going on for thirty years. Wyss 15:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

As a native English speaker I find such uses affected and PC and I certainly never refer to a female actor as anything but an actress - but heigh - it's only a photo of someone other than the article's subject! :) The curate's egg 09:56, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Do you like poetess? How 'bout aviatrix? Ok, I sorta like that one. :) Wyss 10:20, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
Silly person! The curate's egg 07:24, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Actor is the appropriate term but it's not worth wasting time on. I'd rather not see the term actress in the caption but won't revert it if one of you puts it back in. Wyss 07:55, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Downfall instead of der Untergang?

Why is the U.S title of the movie Der Untergang repeatedly used in this article?

Not only is the movie uniformly named der Untergang throughout the Nazi Germany history period series of articles, it is also a title in the language of origin.

I think someone must have changed it? Thanks for pointing it out, I've restored the German title. Wyss 12:03, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Der Untergang

I saw the movie Der Untergang and was really moved by the angle the movie took. Up until recently it was rarely shown how the German people had suffered directly under Nazi leadership. Movies like Shindler’s List and The Pianist greatly portrayed the suffering of the Jews.

It is about time that the Russians and Germans get some recognition for the senseless blood that they have spilled for evil ideologies and self-indulging leaders.

Another important scene in the movie is also where the post-Hitler government attempts to surrender to the Russians. They referred in their surrender statement to something like “The real war on the Eastern front.” From a western perspective, very little credit had been given to the savage battles on the Eastern front.

Is there not more information on why Traudl only got the recognition so late in her life? Did she refuse to speak out, was she afraid?

She only spoke out late in her life, I think. Andries 10:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The Toland biography on Hitler (published in 1975) references her unpublished autobiography, so she did speak out. 24.158.8.227 (talk) 03:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Not publicly on her own (and yes, I think the autobio cited by JT was unpublished). She was interviewed by lots of intel types and authors during the post-war decades but as the article says (in so many words), she was unknown to the general public. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Toland referenced her, so she had a story to tell and she told it much before 2002, to Toland and there was also a 1947 book by her in which she wrote about her time with Hitler. 24.158.8.227 (talk) 01:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there anything about the article you specifically object to or would like clarified? Also, could you provide the title and publisher of the 1947 book you mentioned? Thanks. Gwen Gale (talk) 01:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I was responding to a question from someone asking about when she began speaking out. As far as references about the 1947 book, I misunderstood what I had read. She wrote a manuscript entitled "Meine Zeit bei Adolf Hitler" in 1947 and that manuscript was the basis of the book published just before she died. I believe it was also used by Toland (he references her unpublished manuscript" and that her providing it and speaking to authors who then publish books is considered speaking out. Also, an obit of her's states, "She helped on a number of historical films, documentaries and books including the Austrian director G.W. Pabst's 1955 feature film Der letzte Akt ("The Last Act"), about the last days in Hitler's Berlin bunker." 165.189.169.190 (talk) 14:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

"Recognition" is not quite the right word, really, but Junge did certainly appear on documentaries about Hitler, particularly The World At War, Jeremy Isaacs' 13-part documentary series for Thames Television in the early 1970s (the one narrated by Olivier). Junge, still then a quite young woman, was interviewed, if I recall correctly, about her experiences during the last days of the war. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 14:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category female Nazis

I read in a book that she was not a member of the Nazi party, though I forgot where. I will remove the category female Nazis, because there is no support in the article for the statement that she was a member of the party. I changed to description of the category:Female Nazis to women who were part of the Nazi party, excluding women who were (loosely) affiliated with the Nazi regime without being a member of the Nazi party. Andries 10:52, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I agree. chowells 13:17, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Traudl Junge's realization of her "role" in the Nazi Holocaust

Until a couple of days ago I didn't have the film on DVD. However after reading Traudl Junge's comments posted on this article (the second one involving her realization of the fact she could have known about the Holocaust) I had to get a copy of the movie so I could confirm what to me is a puzzling contradiction. Like I wrote in my latest edit, she claims she and Sophie Scholl were born on the same year. This is absurd, because Scholl was born in May 1921 whereas Traudl was born in March 1920. This means Junge was aproximately 400 days older than the resistence fighter. I have no idea what led her say this, but I think readers should know what's going on. David Irving apparently also noticed this inaccuracy, however I don't trust him 100%. This is because his own "translation" of the dialog implies Traudl claimed Sophie died on the day Hitler hired her. This is not what the subtitles show, not what I make of the German dialog. I don't know when Traudl started working for Hitler but since she was interviewed in November 1942 I assume it might have been 1943, which then fits Junge's description. Perhaps we could nitpick and say maybe she was hired in late November, December 1942 and not 1943, but that's probably unecessary. If anyone knows anything about this, please let me know or make whatever necessary arrangements this article needs. Ishikawa Minoru 15:32, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Traudl and Sophie Scholl

Apparently the last paragraph I added to the article was deleted and the information labeled original research. I beg to differ. David Irving was, for several decades, a respected historian who who made a huge contribution to the field of historical research. He is still in fact looked up to as an expert even by some of his opponents. He was merely reviewing the film and probably noticed(as did I, reason why I looked it up on the internet and found his website), that the dates provided by Ms. Junge didn't make sense. There can be no doubts regarding this issue. They were not born on the same year, period. Did she mean they were around the same age? I honestly think she did, but since it's just my opinion and she's no longer around to answer our questions, there's nothing to be done about it. This article and the Sophie Scholl's contradict earch other, something must be done to make things right. --Ishikawa Minoru 16:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

First, the paragraph contained so many grammar errors and organization issues as to be ambiguous. Irving has been shown to have used sloppy methods and even falsification and is simply no longer a citable source. So far as Junge and Scholl's birth years, they were about the same age and I have little doubt something was lost in the translation of her original German into English. Either way (OR or not), Irving is not an acceptable citation. Gwen Gale 09:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
If you fancy yourself a more apt writer, then feel free to correct my less than perfect work.
Regardless of Irving's reputation as an historian (and he is a very capable researcher and writer, as many individuals have noted over the past decades), the english translation is correct. I don't know if you have the DVD but you can check for yourself. She clearly uses the word "Jahr" twice, which implies she claims they were born on the same year and Scholl was killed the year she was hired by Hitler.
Mathematically speaking this is a lie. They were born over 400 days apart so like I stated that could have never been. This means I will not tolerate your arrogance and meek, unsubstanciated attempts at covering up this blooper.
Unless you come up with a sensible explanation as to why I cannot write about this evident contradiction, I shall revert your edits. - Ishikawa Minoru 15:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
There is no contradiction. 400 days is close enough to a year, it's not a lie, it's trivial and though Wikipedia has many faults, I can safely say no Irving citation will last long here, he's not a reliable source (I agree this is sometimes annoying, he conducted many helpful interviews over the years and can be an informative read but his published treatment of those and other sources has been shown to be unscholarly or worse). Gwen Gale 20:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Then forget about Irving. We don't need any citations to correct what would otherwise be looked upon as internal incosistency. And 400 do make a difference, even a day would make a difference. Why? Because 1920 ends with a zero and 1921 with the number one. If only her statement were true she'd probably remember Scholl's brithday. I assume it's even inscribed in her statue in the Franz Joseph Strasse, so she should have realized and the producers should have double-check the accuracy of her statments. --Ishikawa Minoru 23:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
A WP editor's role doesn't involve correcting the statements of article subjects, but might involve citing a reliable source which comments on those statements. Without a reliable, published, secondary source as a citation (discussing how 400 days is more than a year and therefore Junge was not "correct"), about the most one could do, without straying into original research, would be to list their birthdates in a footnote. Truth be told I think this would mostly stress the striking similiarity in their ages. Gwen Gale 06:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
As far as I am concerned you need only apply the most basic laws of arithmetic to realize a difference of at least 365 days between the birthdate of any two individuals implies different birthyears. I can find a reputable source making such a claim, but I find it unnecessary.
Regarding said footnote, that's a comprimise I'd be willing to make. Since you don't agree with my writing style, perhaps you should be the one to write it. --Ishikawa Minoru 21:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
No writing style required, only the birth dates will do and even that could be interpreted as "gaming the system" to give undue weight to a thinly supported PoV. Either way, any additional commentary whatsoever must be supported by a citation from a reliable, published secondary source, preferably peer-reviewed, or else it will more than likely be interpreted as original research and be deleted. Personally, I still think a listing of their birthdates in a footnote will only emphasize the close similarity in their ages and support the pith of Junge's remark. Gwen Gale 05:43, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I rewrote a bit of it and added another source. Hopefully this version is acceptable to both parties. I redid the first sentence entirely because it was a bit awkward and changed a bit of the phraseology. .V. (talk) 23:46, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I just watched Im toten Winkel and saw the quote about Sophie Scholl here. I think that "Interviewed during the movie Der Untergang (Downfall)." should be changed to refer to the documentary Im toten Winkel instead. It was shot before Der Untergang and what is seen in Der Untergang is just an excerpt from it. I'm not a wikipedian so I will let someone else decide whether this change should be made etc. 89.190.214.100 00:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Done. Gwen Gale 01:17, 30 January 2007 (UTC)