Talk:Transwoman

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[edit] Notable Figures

I added further refrences to some notable transwoman both in current times and in previous epochs. Eventually I hope to have a category on wikipedia or notabable transwomen.


[edit] Terminology

The following statements are being continually reverted and re-added, largely due to the RfD of shemale. Discussion is that these are largely derogatory and should not be added.

"Transwoman is only one of many words used to refer to transgendered women. Numerous alternatives are also commonly used–most of which are seen as offensive:"

  • Tranny
  • Shemale
  • Ladyboy
  • "Chick with a dick"
  • She-male

.. comments? - Alison ☺ 00:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. Simply because these are offensive is no reason to exclude them. --Dookama 00:24, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I think they're incredably offensive and don't deserve to be dropped in with no context. Either exclude them as non-encylcopedic insults or write a section on offensive terms and their history and usage. Kolindigo 00:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I have expanded the information in this section. Review the relevant section of WP:NOT please. --Dookama 00:40, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's apply this logic to Black people; shall we?
Alternative terminology
"Black people" is only one of many words and phrases used to refer to black people. Numerous alternatives such as "nigger", "porch monkey", "jiggaboo", and/or "coon" are also used in the southern United States—many people, especially black individuals themselves, consider these terms highly offensive.
Please. It's not there because it's not the appropriate place for it. Reverted. Add it to List of slurs. Joie de Vivre 01:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Agreed. If they are added there, a single sentence could be added to this article to say that "There are numerous insulting terms used within the sex industry" or some such. --AliceJMarkham 02:25, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Agreed that the only appropriate way would be a single sentence with a piped link to "list of slurs". Ethnic slurs are not presented as though they were reasonable alternatives to describe people in those groups; that would be atrocious. Neither should slurs be included in that manner here. They are pejoratives and should be treated as such. Frankly I do not see slurs as having a place in this article at all, unless someone presents a solid reason to. Joie de Vivre 02:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Seconded - Alison ☺ 03:09, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of pornographic film terminology

I have some comments on the possible inclusion of the adult film TG terminology.

First, there's a huge difference in usage between the terms above like "tranny", "shemale", and "ladyboy", and ethnic slurs like "nigger" and "jigaboo": the former are primarily used in the adult film industry, and the latter are not. A Google search makes it very clear how these terms are actually used. While there are several places online where transgender women claim, "shemale is a slur", there are scant few places online where shemale is actually USED as a slur. On the other hand, there are thousands of pages where shemale is used as a synonym for pre-op or non-op transsexual women in adult films.

Second, most transgender women consider these terms to be offensive because they do not want to be indentified as anything other than "woman". However, there are many transgender women, particularly non-op women such as myself, who do use these terms to self-identify because they are more descriptive than "woman", which (politics aside) is not an entirely accurate label for someone who has a penis.

Wikipedia is not a social or political platform; it is about accuracy. Terms may offend us, but that does not make them "slurs" unless they are most commonly used in a fashion to insult or intimidate. To be more neutral, I'd suggest something along these lines:

Several slang terms for pre-op and non-op are used in the adult film industry. Most transwomen consider these terms offensive for two reasons: they do not want to be associated with pornography, and they prefer to be considered a "woman" over anything else. However, some transwomen, particularly non-op transsexual women, may use these terms to self-identify. Here are some of the most common variants:"

So I think they should be included, but I'm tired of seeing people trying to put their own spin on whether the terms are "good" or "bad"...this topic gets aggressively political very quickly. They're terms used in porn, and most transwomen don't like being called anything other than "woman". Anything more judgmental than this constitutes personal bias.

65.185.37.199 04:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with nearly every comment you made, many of which I believe you already made repeatedly (and unconvincingly) on Talk:Shemale). Point for point: those derogatory terms for black people 'are' used in the pron industry, your personal medical operative status is irrelevant, your claims about 'why' the term is offensive to transwomen are your own unsubstantiated research, and you cannot seriously hope to argue that the terms are not derogatory. They are used beyond their porn context and are indeed used 'to insult and intimidate' - that is the definition of 'derogatory'. Wikidictionary and Mirriam Webster describe the word 'Shemale' as derogatory slang. Your effort to claim their derogatory use is limited to porn is unsubstantiated and baseless.
Like any editor (anon or not) you are required to provide notable, verifiable sources for whatever information you seek to include in your edits. Listing a series of derogatory terms for transgendered people just because one editor says he/she doesn't object to them isn't justifiable or encyclopedic. Joie's illustration serves as excellent guidance on this issue.-- User:RyanFreisling @ 05:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The prior discussion to which RyanFreisling is referring is here. (And, hey, thanks for the compliment.) Joie de Vivre 19:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with User:RyanFreisling. Speaking as a non-op transwoman and as an African-American, I don't find it any less insulting to be called tranny, she-male etc, than I do being called nigger. As an encyclopedic article, transwoman should not perpetuate the idea that its simply OK to use these terms for transgender individuals, regardless of who or what industry uses them- esp when there is a full separate article (she-male) which already discusses the ramifications of using such terminology. Besides, if you want to be realistic, how can anyone consider the porn industry to be a reliable source on anything related to sociology? That's about as realistic as saying "certain black people use the word nigger in entertainment so its not really derogatory." Complete BS.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 10:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I must disagree here a bit. Firstly we can simply note the use of these words and that many consider them derogatory. Secondly the porn industry is fairly representative of what a certain aspect of society is looking for. Do I think that alone is the basis for usage? No. But they don't generally simply make terns up in hopes that someone will buy the product. They perpetuate what is out there. And tranny is a word I hear quite often with San Francisco's Trannyshack being an obvious example. It's best, IMHO, to take a more worldwide view and note that the terms are used but generally should be avoided by those not in the LGBT communities as they are generally deemed offensive. This gives good information and doesn't censor so those that want to know can find out. Benjiboi 13:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm not one for censorship either, in fact I hate it, but the fact remains there is already a full article she-male which describes use of the term and similar terms within the adult entertainment industry. Its redundant to have it in transwoman also. A small section within the article maybe, but nothing extensive.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 20:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
As for the comment on Trannyshack, just because a large group of people use the term for endearment doesn't make it "appropriate." One of the Waynes Brothers actually attempted to copywrite the word "nigga" (a term I also hear on a regular basis in my day to day life) but that doesn't make its usage anymore appropriate either. As I said before, it would just be more logical to improve and expand the she-male article, which transwoman already has a link to.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 20:11, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Well the article as of now has no mention which I find faulty. A brief mention of the terms within context seems more than appropriate and informative. Benjiboi 16:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Terminology has been added under the See Also section.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 21:04, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shemale listed for DRV

Resolved.

Since shemale is distinct meaning from transwoman, i have listed for DRV. See discussion here. Im posting here for people who have transwoman in their watchlist. Thanks. Lara_bran 10:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Recreation permitted in Deletion review. See discussion here. Lara_bran 04:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lede image

I swapped the lede image for a different image, per the discussion at Talk:Transgender#Lede_image. If you would like to discuss which image should be used, please do not reply here; let's keep the discussion in one place. Thank you. Photouploaded (talk) 16:54, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] repetition

In the section of the article that deals with sexual orientation there is repeition of there being as many or more transwomen who self identify as non-androphilic compared to those who are androphilic. I will re write this. --Hfarmer (talk) 14:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)