Talk:Transnistria (World War II)

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Can I somebody give information about ethnic composition of this area between wars? Luka Jačov 11:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

This is hard, in part because of the lack of sources ... and also because it was under Soviet control for most of the time (Soviet stats not being the most reliable). I did some lookups for you and I found some info on Tiraspol, but not on the rest of Transnistria. Tiraspol. It was heavily Jewish with 27 percent of the city's population being Jews at the turn of the century. This was one of the reasons why, in WWII, Romanian fascists went past the natural border of Greater Romania (crossing the Dniester into Transnistria) and the war slogan "Jews into the Dniester" was born. - Mauco 18:26, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Update to the above: I found some data which DOES list ethnic composition between the wars. It is posted at http://www.pridnestrovie.net/images/historicpopulation.gif and shows census numbers for 1926 (for all of MASSR) and 1936 (for Transnistria). It is part of this page: http://www.pridnestrovie.net/2004census.html - Mauco 11:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Your stats are useless in the context of this article, because they only cover the MASSR -- a small part of the Transnistria we are talking about. Moreover, I would expect the stats to be biased by the desire of the Soviets to show how many Moldovans were on the MASSR territory. Dpotop 16:21, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Romanian occupation of Transnistria 1941-1944: killings of Jews

In October - November 1941 Romanian troops killed in Odessa about 30 thousand Jews. Many Jews have been deported in Transnistria from Bessarabia and Bukovina. 200 thousand Jews were victims of Romanian occupation of Transnistria (Odessa and Pridnestrovie) 1941-1944. Ben-Velvel 23:09, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eminescu

This article is about the period of WW2. Eminescu was dead at that time, which is the relevance to add a line from his poetry? Mauco, you don't know about Romanian nationalism, anyway. Why you start edit wars and then you ask others to stop?--MariusM 16:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Romanian nationalism is not just defined by Romanians. This is English Wikipedia, and other editors of other nationalities can bring their knowledge to bear on the matter, too. Eminescu was (at the time of these events) the leading national poet of Romania. In his ode, which is cited, he specifically dealt with where the land of "The Romanians" started and where it ended; not just historically and as per the borders, but in the national psyche of the Romanians at the time. It is therefore very relevant as an example of what, in the context, was seen as Romania's lebensraum and their birthright, just as the concept of lebensraum is also central to understanding the expansionist actions of their allies - Nazi Germany - in the same war. Summary: It is factually accurate AND very relevant, and it must stay. - Mauco 17:18, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Which was "the height of Romanian nationalism"? I think it was exactly in WW2, not in the time of Eminescu. Non-Romanian editors can bring knowledge about Romanian nationalism only if they have knowledge on this subject, something that i suspect you are missing. This article is not about poetry, anyway.--MariusM 22:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Exactly. The height of Romanian nationalism took place at that time. What lead to the height? Among other things, the build-up created by Eminescu. I would recommend that you read serious Western historians, such as Charles King, please. His scholarship cover the period, the area, and the setting which will show you why Eminescu is entirely appropriate, just as the events which lead to the whole Lebensraum concept. - Mauco 23:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Glad to see that you agree that the height of Romanian nationalism was during WW2. That mean you agree also that your adition "Even at the height of Romanian nationalism, the Dniester/Nistru was considered the eastern boundary of the Romanian lands", quoting as source Eminescu is misleading. There were plenty of articles in Romanian press during WW2 claiming that Eastern boundary of the Romanian lands are East of Dniester. You should go to a Romanian public library and check newspapers from WW2 period.--MariusM 23:35, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
And this means that you can delete the reference to Eminescu? I do not follow your logic. It does not makes sense at all. Surreal. Please explain. - Mauco 23:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, William is partly right and partly wrong:
Nistru was indeed traditionally considered the border of Moldavia, beyond being the "Tatars' land". For example, see this ballad, in which an old Romanian warrior is badly wounded while fighting the Tatars and he asks to be allowed to cross the Nistru to die in his country.
Eminescu was likely aware of this, but not aware of the Romanians/Moldavians living beyond Nistru. In late 19th century, AFAIK, there was very little information coming from Bessarabia, which was part of the Russian Empire. Apparently, the Russian Empire had an isolationist policy for Bessarabia, in order to be influenced at little as possible by the rest of Moldavia.
However, things changed after WWI and Romanian nationalists were aware about the Romanians living beyond Nistru and a dozen or two of books were published about them. (I could not find any books about the issue published prior to 1917)
So, I think it's quite clear that those pre-WWII Romanian nationalists had some thoughts about the territories inhabited by Romanians beyond the Nistru. ;-) bogdan 00:24, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Soviet genocide"

What does the so-called "Soviet genocide" have to do with this article? Did it specifically take place in occupied Transnistria, and no where else? And did it happen in World War II? What is the relevance? If it is for "background", then the next question is: Background to WHAT exactly? To show that the Romanian invasion was somehow justified, and the killing of hundreds of thousands of Jews in the Romanian holocaust? Not a single loss of life is ever justified by the loss of another life, never. I am disgusted to my bones by the editor who wants to include this. - Mauco 00:02, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

For once, I am largely in agreement with William Mauco (except for his presumption that the editor meant it to read this way). The way this is written, it really doesn't belong here. However, differently worded, some background on what the region had been through in the years leading up to the war would be appropriate. - Jmabel | Talk 01:32, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I believe that the scope of this article should be restricted to World War II. Any events that preceded this period should be added to other articles, such as the Transnistria one and the Ukraine or Ukrainian SSR. TSO1D 01:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
The title of the article pretty much sets the tone for what we can include here and what we can't. Background is OK, of course (for instance, for have a smallish history section in the War of Transnistria article, even though the history which it covers is actually predating the war). Background, however, should be relevant. I can't see how Soviet genocide has a bearing on subsequent events in World War II. It would be impossible to argue, for instance, that the Nazis invaded because they wanted to liberate the population of Transnistria so that Soviet genocide didn't happen. Not even Hitler had the gall to say that. I apologize for getting emotional over this, and I have stricken that part. We must keep a cool head when we edit. - Mauco 06:01, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
The only possible relevance is to indicate that the people of this region had dealt with a series of calamities, of which the German/Romanian occupation was only one. - Jmabel | Talk 04:26, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Agreed. That belongs to History_of_Transnistria#Autonomous_Moldavian_Republic_in_Soviet_Ukraine. bogdan 08:54, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I am in full agreement. To make it clear: I was never against the inclusion of the section, as I pointed out. My main beef was that it was included in the wrong article (this one). - Mauco 12:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree with TSO1D, Bogdan, and William on this one. That fragment, when included in this article, is propaganda. Dahn 19:35, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I think we really need to see more sentences like that (Dahn's first one) here on Wikipedia. :-) --Illythr 20:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dead link

I'm inclined to remove the link I. Altman Holocaust on occupied territory of USSR, Chapter 3. It's a dead link; a version can be found on the Internet Archive (http://web.archive.org/web/20041021095108/http://history.pedclub.ru/shoa/hfond_111.htm) but, at least on my browser, it is illegible. If someone has a clue how to make that Internet Archive link work, do speak up. - Jmabel | Talk 23:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The article's encoding is win-1251 (Russian Cyrillic for Windows OSes). --Illythr 11:50, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
Aha! There was nothing in the citation to even indicate that it was in Russian. - Jmabel | Talk 00:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion potential

I have found this book ("Odessa, 1941-1944: A Case Study of Soviet Territory Under Foreign Rule" by Alexander Dallin) on the Russian talk page of the Transnistria (1941-1944) article.

The book is very detailed and provides a lot of insight on the activities of Romanians in the Dniester-Bug region. It mostly focuses on Odessa, but also provides a considerable amount of information about Romanian policies, behavior and general situation in the whole occupied region. The book provides an excellent expansion possibility for this article, for which I, sadly, will probably never have the time. Still, if anyone will ever want to make some major contributions here, this book is definitely the place to check out first. --Illythr 01:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It seems a good book, I propose to include it in External links section. Later, info from the book can be used for expanding the article.--MariusM 12:40, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not wanting Transnistria

there was never any attempt to formally annex the occupied territory beyond the Dniester [...] merely a temporary buffer zone [...] Not being Romanian territory, Transnistria was used as a killing field for the extermination of Jews.

IMO, that's a bit POV. Actually, Antonescu wanted to deport the Jews "beyond the Urals", if the circumstances would allow that. The Germans never reached the Urals, so this plan was never used.

Mai am în Basarabia aproximativ 10.000 de evrei, care în câteva zile vor fi trecuţi peste Nistru, iar dacă circumstanţele vor permite, vor fi trecuţi dincolo de Urali”
Antonescu, from a government meeting.

http://www1.yadvashem.org/about_yad/what_new/data_whats_new/pdf/Romanian/1.9_Role_of_Antonescu_revazut_gina.pdf

bogdan 18:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misunderstanding?

I think that a misunderstanding leaded to confuse between moghilev of Bielorus and Mogilev podolsk a city in the Ukraine .the jews of Bukovina were deported tu the city in the Ukraine and not to belorus.I myself am a hollocust survivor and spent 5 years in mogilev podolsk.i was born in gurahumorului and transferred to transnistria with all my family —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.153.145.52 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Romanian Transnistria

I question the validity of the map inserted by Olahus: seeing as how this article claims that Romania never annexed Transnistria, because Antonescu did not want to agree with the loss of Transylvania, at least the current map caption contradicts that text. Otherwise, a similar map based on the same logic, "USSR in 1945" might depict most of Europe as "Soviet Union". --Illythr (talk) 15:04, 10 March 2008 (UTC)