Talk:Transformation Story Archive

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This article was nominated for deletion on October 1, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This bit seemed problematic to me:

Stories with the transformed individual as the protagonist, and the person or impersonal force that did the transforming as the antagonist. In contrast, stories that deal with shapeshifting usually present shape-shifters as protagonistic or ideal.

I fixed the first sentence (which had a subject and no predicate) by adding "... seem to be common in the archive". But maybe that's not clear enough either. I'm not sure what the original author had in mind here. Do we want to generalize about the fiction in the TSA and contrast it with a generalization about the whole corpus of shapeshifting or transformation stories in general? Or contrast the amateur fiction in this archive with professionally published fiction on similar themes? Or what? The contrast as stated is unclear and unsupported by evidence.

I might guess: Amateur transformation or shapeshifting stories are more likely to involve a protagonist transformed against his/her will by a hostile entity than professionally published stories on that theme; the latter are more likely to involve a protagonist who is in control of his shapeshifting or self-transformation. But I would hesitate to make such a broad generalization based on my own unsystematic reading experiences. I can think of counterexamples both ways. --Jim Henry 21:32, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The contrast, which I should put in the article if I find the time, is that the community that writes these stories has several beliefs. They believe the idea that being a werewolf, werefox, werewhatever, naturally, is similar to the plot device of the protagonist being a peasant that finds out they are actually a prince, an heir, a wizard, a dragon-rider, some great and grand secret destiny. In contrast, a forced transformation from some outside source is something to deal with, something to overcome. Both are problems of definition of identity: Don't define me! Let me define myself! (A meme which is common to the group in question, mostly 16-35 single males.)

-- BlueNight 14:20, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK. The problem may the unclear distinction between "transformation" and "shapeshifting". One person might think of the former as involuntary and imposed from without, while the latter is voluntarily initiated by the person who changes shape. In my idiolect, however, they are roughly synonymous; I can accept an author giving them specific meaning within a given story, but I have no preconceived notions about what each will mean in a new context. I think I would rewrite the problem paragraph something like this:

One may distinguish two broad patterns in the role transformation or shapeshifting plays in stories. In some stories, transformation (especially various forms of lycanthropy) plays a role similar to the plot device of the protagonist being a commoner who finds out they are actually royal, or have unsuspected magical talent, or have some other wonderful secret destiny. In others, a transformation imposed from without by a hostile entity is a challenge to be overcome; the protagonist seeks a way to to reverse the transformation and regain their original form. In many such stories, the final resolution involves the unwillingly transformed protagonist coming to terms with his or her new shape and turning it to their advantage rather than finding a way to return to "normal".

Is that clearer? If no one objects, in a few days I will replace the problem paragraph with the above draft. --Jim Henry 21:03, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)

That almost perfectly describes what I was thinking of. I would slightly alter the first sentence, so it doesn't seem we're talking about transformation stories in general, instead of this specific collection:

One may distinguish two broad patterns in the role transformation or shapeshifting plays in stories on the archive(etc.)

These are the two most common plots on the TSA. They are both coming-of-age plots, reflecting the writers' ages as 16-35. The stories written by the older age group (35-65) often have plots describing the adventures of adults either forced into coping with transformation, already-transformed individuals' everyday lives, or returning to youth or some idealized form as a way of escaping from the pain of adult life. (Gee. Maybe I should put that in there!) BlueNight 00:42, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

OK, that makes sense. But I'm not sure these generalizations don't hold to a large degree for fiction about transformation in general. Maybe a revised, more cautious statement to that effect could be added to the article on Shapeshifting, which is kind of rambling and disorganized right now. Here in this article, your demographic or sociological statements would probably be appropriate, though not in the Shapeshifting article. --Jim Henry 14:35, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Child porn accusation citation

The line "By November of 1998, this included accusations of the acceptance and facilitation of child pornography against public netbase/t0." is referenced with this link, [1]. It contains the paragraphs:

Earlier this year Vienna's Public Netbase faced serious attacks of verbal abuse from the right-wing Austrian Freedom Party (FPÖ) and its leader Mr. Haider.

The Freedom Party spent a lot of effort, parliamentary sessions, press-conferences and -releases accusing the "Institute for New Culture-Technology" Public Netbase of running a (child)porn-network.

Which, as far as I can figure, exactly confirm what the article says. I've removed the verification-failed template. Bryan 19:55, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shared universe citation

The line "Fiction written in the TSA's shared universes have at times also been accepted in unrelated online anthologies." is referenced with a link to Anthrozine #7, which includes the story A Good Run of Luck (set in the Tales of the Blind Pig setting) and A Tale of Sand and Ice part 3 (set in the Metamor Keep setting). Both of these settings originated on TSA, so I removed that verification-failed template too. Bryan 19:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup

This needs to be written more clearly and also with less minutiae of interest only to the specialist or to Hassan himself. For example, it isn't of great import whether it started on 1 May 1995 or 25 May 1995. That shouldn't even be in the article at all. May 1995 is all we need to know. Tyrenius 00:04, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I've taken your suggestion regarding the lede. Although establishment dates are generally encyclopedic, the fact that no unequivocable date exists for this case is a compelling argument to be less specific. I've also adjusted the wording somewhat throughout, both in regards to your suggestions and as a general copyedit. I do not think, however, that there is any problem is discussing the departure of Hassan and his later project in the context of this article. The dispensation of the founder is well within the scope of this article, especially in light of the unlikeliness of Hassan having sufficient independent notability for his own article.

Do these changes address your concerns? Serpent's Choice 04:18, 5 February 2007 (UTC)