Talk:Trans-Siberian Pipeline
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This article was nominated for deletion on 28 May 2008. The result of the discussion was keep (withdrawn by nominator). |
As of the date of this comment, the Trans-Siberian pipeline has not been constructed. The information in this article is not accurate and should be deleted. Rwking2 (talk) 20:30, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The references in the article seem to be legitimate. The authors of the cited articles and book may have been taken in by a hoax, but they do seem to be reliable sources, and I haven't seen any reliable sources indicating that this is a hoax. Since there are reliable sources that verify the contents of the article, the article should not be deleted as a hoax without reliable sources indicating that this is a hoax. Klausness (talk) 23:47, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
- I've found a reference skeptical of the story, so I've added that to the article. Klausness (talk) 00:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Which pipeline?
There is no Trans-Siberian Pipeline. Based on other information in this article (constructed in 1982; export pipeline from the Urengoy field to Europe) it should be Urengoy - Pomary - Uzhgorod pipeline. But this pipeline has nothing to do with Kazakhstan. Based on information about explosion, it should be Urengoy - Surgut - Chelyabinsk pipeline, but this pipeline was built in 1980. Although this article is named as Trans-Siberian Pipeline (which is clearly misnomer), it says nothing about the pipeline itself. It should be deleted or at least to renamed to reflect that this is about a theory of CIA sabotage.Beagel (talk) 21:58, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
- I added some more references. Perhaps you could have Googled "Trans-Siberian Pipeline" before deciding that this was a hoax. It has been referenced (by that name) by Alexander Haig, Ronald Reagan, the British Government, the French Government, and a retired KGB agent. If the pipeline's existance is a hoax, it's not my hoax, it's a global conspiracy involving the White House, the New York Times, CBS News, and the Roswell people. - Eric (talk) 18:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am not saying that pipeline doesn't exist. It is clear from the text that it refers to the Urengoy - Pomary - Uzhgorod pipeline or to the Urengoy - Surgut - Chelyabinsk pipeline. My simple question is to which one. Because in the current text these two pipelines are totally mixed. More tensions in the West were related with the construction of the Urengoy - Pomary - Uzhgorod pipeline (referred in the western media as West Siberian Pipeline), but the explosion happened at the Urengoy - Surgut - Chelyabinsk pipeline. Googling Trans-Siberian Pipeline is not very helpful — most of hits are trans-Siberian pipeline, which may refer to any pipeline crossing Siberia. And as the article mainly about sabotage act and not pipeline itself, the current name is misleading (and once more, there is no pipeline with this name).Beagel (talk) 19:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- Clearly, some major sources (including the White House) referred to this contentious pipeline as the "Trans-Siberian" pipeline. Clearly, this pipeline exploded in 1982 (whether due to the CIA or to Soviet failure). Let's find out WHICH trans-Siberia pipeline got everyone all excited before it exploded, and mention that name (whatever the Soviets called it) in the article. I would agree with renaming the article to the proper Soviet name, if we create a redirect and mention that the White House and the western media referred to it as simply the "Trans-Siberian pipeline". - Eric (talk) 19:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am not saying that pipeline doesn't exist. It is clear from the text that it refers to the Urengoy - Pomary - Uzhgorod pipeline or to the Urengoy - Surgut - Chelyabinsk pipeline. My simple question is to which one. Because in the current text these two pipelines are totally mixed. More tensions in the West were related with the construction of the Urengoy - Pomary - Uzhgorod pipeline (referred in the western media as West Siberian Pipeline), but the explosion happened at the Urengoy - Surgut - Chelyabinsk pipeline. Googling Trans-Siberian Pipeline is not very helpful — most of hits are trans-Siberian pipeline, which may refer to any pipeline crossing Siberia. And as the article mainly about sabotage act and not pipeline itself, the current name is misleading (and once more, there is no pipeline with this name).Beagel (talk) 19:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Russian name?
Okay, Beagel says that the pipeline in question is what the Russians called the Urengoy - Surgut - Chelyabinsk pipeline, but this site says that the Urengoy - Surgut - Chelyabinsk was built in 1980. Have we got the wrong pipeline? The same article lists two Soviet pipelines built in '82: the Gas pipeline Urengoy - Pomary - Uzhgorod (Russia/Ukraine, 800km) and the Gas pipeline Urengoy - Center 2-nd line (Russia, 312km).. is the pipeline the article refers to one of these?? - Eric (talk) 19:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Several articles say that the pipeline went from Siberia to Western Europe. Is it at all possible that the pipeline that exploded is not the same tube as the pipeline that Reagan wanted Western Europe to refuse to help build? This is confusing. this New York Times article says "Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher criticized the United States today for trying to limit the ability of foreign companies to fulfill contracts for a 3,700-mile natural gas pipeline from Siberia to Western Europe." Well- 3,700 miles = 5 ,954 km. Perhaps it is a series of smaller pipelines that collectively formed the Trans-Siberian pipeline that Reagan and Thatcher were talking about. - Eric (talk)
- My understanding is that the main problem for the Reagan administration was construction of the Urengoy-Uzhgorod pipeline (referred as West Siberian pipeline). I think that this link gives some very interesting information about this subject. But at the same time the Moscow Times reference talks about the explosion on the Urengoy - Chelyabinsk pipeline. And export through Kazakhstan doesn't fit with the Urengoy-Uzhgorod pipeline. This is the main reason for my confusion. I think that maybe we could rename this article for something like Siberian gas pipeline sabotage of 1982. In this case the exact name of the pipeline is not so important.Beagel (talk) 20:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
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- I'm starting to suspect that in researching the pipeline explosion (which, you're probably right, was probably the Urengoy - Chelyabinsk), I may have stumbled upon the history of the dispute regarding the construction of a DIFFERENT pipeline (probably the Urengoy-Uzhgorod pipeline that would constitute a section of a greater pipeline to connect Urengoy to Western Europe). It may be that there REALLY WAS an explosion on the Urengoy - Chelyabinsk, and that the hoax mis-told the story as having been a CIA plot to destroy the contentious Urengoy-Uzhgorod. We could really use some expert attention on this one, before we decide how to rename/split/handle this article. - Eric (talk) 22:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- At the same time, Soviet Union used Western technology and software for pipelines. Therefore, it could be or could be not a hoax. It probably deserves its own separate article as an article about sabotage act or wider article about Soviet/Europe/US tensions on gas issues in the 1980s.Beagel (talk) 22:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- ---SPLIT!---
- Okay, since it's now quite clear that these are two different trans-Siberia pipelines, I've separated them. References to the contentious pipeline that the White House referred to as the "Trans-Siberian pipeline" (the Urengoy - Pomary - Uzhgorod pipeline) remain in this article, and the story about the supposed CIA operation to blow up the Urengoy - Surgut - Chelyabinsk I moved to a new article: Siberian pipeline sabotage. Sorry- I got the two different pipelines mixed up. - Eric (talk) 11:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm starting to suspect that in researching the pipeline explosion (which, you're probably right, was probably the Urengoy - Chelyabinsk), I may have stumbled upon the history of the dispute regarding the construction of a DIFFERENT pipeline (probably the Urengoy-Uzhgorod pipeline that would constitute a section of a greater pipeline to connect Urengoy to Western Europe). It may be that there REALLY WAS an explosion on the Urengoy - Chelyabinsk, and that the hoax mis-told the story as having been a CIA plot to destroy the contentious Urengoy-Uzhgorod. We could really use some expert attention on this one, before we decide how to rename/split/handle this article. - Eric (talk) 22:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
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[edit] Construction controversy
According to the Heritage Foundation, not only Vietnamese workers, but also prisoners were used on construction of pipelines.[[1]] Beagel (talk) 21:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
