Talk:Trance music

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Good article Trance music was a nominee for Arts good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
March 30, 2008 Good article nominee Not listed

Contents

[edit] Nothing on Psy and Goa Trance

Reading the article I realised there is no mention at all of goa trance and its successor psychedelic trance, not to mention their subgenres. You can divide psy into - full-on,progressive,dark and ambient. Psy and Goa deserve to be included because they have a musical style distinct from that of mainstream trance and emerged separately. Or was it vandalised by 200.168.32.36 again? karan (talk) 15:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 160?

When has trance ever been 160 BPM? Trancecore is a subgenre of hardcore, not trance.

You are correct, I lowered it to 130-150 bpm. Even 150 BPM is high for normal trance. Higher BPMs like that usually shift the classification into the realm of Rave music, according to Ishkur's guide to electronic music. Danski14(talk) 02:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

There has been. You should go listen to 1992 Classic Trance track Loops of Infinity by Cosmic Baby. It was 160 BPM. Even so a genre isn't determined by speed. Jon Dillinger

[edit] Hardcore trance page added

I have been adding Hardcore trance. I set up redirects from UK Hardcore and U.K. Hardcore. It is in it's very early stages. Please help me add to it. Right now it needs to be added to the trance sub-genes (implanted better into the catagories). I have been trying to, but am new to Wikipedia. It needs a good introduction/description (instead of mine... lol), history, and big DJ's and producers in the scene... etc.. Lets make the Hardcore trance page as good as it should be! --Linarator 07:24, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Trance BPM debate-


Trance is also known to be 140 BPM not just 160 but it varies on the actual genre of trance like hardstyle, acid house, vocal trance, progressive, and even dance (which is sometimes consitered a genre of trance) but the genre as a whole is Electronica (electronic music) which consists of more than one genre like: trance, techno, house, psychedelic, acid house, progressive, vocal trance, dream trance/dream house etc. etc. and it is about 130-180 BPM.

-also see reference at the bottom of the actual article.

~Bree

[edit] Fruityloops link removed

Moved this link:

fruityloops

in See also section here, it is a link to a music tool, but does not seem clear that this is related to trance music. The article this links to is poorly written and also reads as advertising. Could the original editor please add this background information and explain its relevance? --Lexor 08:07, 27 Oct 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Trance in the Midwest is not dead

I know it sounds strange, but I listen to Digitally Imported 10 days a month, and I'm from Wisconsin. Could someone talk how we Americans take whatever is made in Europe and use it in nightclubs (because John Digweed or Sasha never comes to Wisconsin or Minnesota) :( Did you know if you type in Wisconsin into Google Video, one of the first three video's is Daft Punks! [1]

Wouldn't it make sense to have an article on Trance music in US and have a midwest section or would that be too hard to do?

You should see how many Americans are on DI Forums! That must be worth mentioning in the article.

Renegadeviking

[edit] Influence of Genesis P-Orridge

I deleted the towards the infinite beat stuff. Genesis P-Orridge has consistantly lied and said that he invented Acid House, and now I see he is also beggining to be credited with inventing trance.

[edit] Evolution from musical style in East LA?

I removed this paragraph about the history of trance:

In a social and artistic rebellion in 1986, young Mexican girls from east Los Angeles created a new musical style called "tantra" which was later called "trans" then "trance." This was a moving away from the traditional violent gang oriented hip-hop their boyfriends created. This art form also became "melody" and "speed" which transformed into early House music.

I can't find any verifiable source that trance evolved from a musical style in East LA. Everything I have (Simon Reynold's Energy Flash/Generation Ecstasy, All Music Guide to Electronica) points to trance having largely European genesis in the early 1990s. House started in Chicago, and that's well documented (see Reynold, ibid. and Dan Sicko's Techno Rebels). --Lexor|Talk 15:58, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

.. yep, but you're relying on journalists / writers / 'authorities' (Simon Reynolds for one, I could explain the dance scene 10 times better than him as could a thousand others, but wee are not published authors...) who may or may not have done their research properly / deeply / extensively enough, or know things first hand. This wikipedia, uni-style insistenced on 'verification' from printed sources that might not know any better in themselves risks denigrating the wealth of first hand observations and experiences that the site itself is in a unique position to capitalse on...--Digest 16:32, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

LISTEN: In a social and artistic rebellion in 1986, young Mexican girls from east Los Angeles created a new musical style called "tantra" which was later called "trans" then "trance." This was a moving away from the traditional violent gang oriented hip-hop their boyfriends created. This art form also became "melody" and "speed" which transformed into early House music.

That has got to be some of the biggest hogwash. Whoever wrote that must be on crack or something. Trance is a largely European invention with definite house and techno and electro influences. What "social and artistic" rebellion? You did the right thing by removing that paragraph, and it should be eradicated from this discussion page. The only genre in the 80s dance-wise that Hispanics began (which was in New York City) was something called freestyle music aka Latin Hip Hop (e.g. Cover Girls, Expose, Shannon, Stevie B., George Lamond, etc.). It was big in Miami as well; there was barely a scene in Los Angeles. Overall, freestyle music was born in the early 80s with Bambaataa's "Planet Rock" as its parent.

For more info, refer to the freestyle music article in this website.

[edit] Female vocals in trance

Also removed:

Early house music was melodic and faster than hip-hop, usually with female vocals having love, hope, dreams, romance and togetherness as the subject matter. It was a predecessor to most of today's modern electronic and rave music.

isn't really about the history of trance and is covered in the house music article in any case. --Lexor|Talk

One common feature of trance that I don't see mentioned: female vocals, usually about intense romantic longing. Perhaps someone could place this in the chronology.

I think the female vocals, usually about intense romantic longing style is rarely referred as 'trace' at least by people in the trance scene (typical for happy-harecore, club music, many other styles), trance is rather the 'vocaless blipy repetetive sound over intense meditation like atmosphere'
I think it would be pushing it to say that trance is 'vocal-less, blippy and repetitive'. The word trance is more of a blanket term for many different types of electronica. Vocal Trance is very popular in Europe and is built solely around female vocals. I think a sub-genre of trance that most closely matches your definition is goa/psychedelic trance, which usually does not have female vocals. My point is that I agree with the original author, I see no harm in discussing Vocal Trance here.

[edit] Subgenres

Where are the subgenres like hard trance and club trance. Lables like noom records and eve records and people like synergy, morten and audio science, nostrum and djs like garry d. and taucher dont fit wall into any of the current articles. Progressive is realy a very late 90's thing, so what about the genres that were around in the 90's?

In the main article I would expect to see more about EyeQ Records and Jam and Spoon and possibly Sven vath and Oliver Lieb. Finally where is Juno Reactor and Josh Wink? and how about Floor essence by Man With No Name and Age of Love as a definitive tracks?Htaccess 06:36, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] 1998 trance remix

The article states that the term trance comes from a song called 'dance2trance' from 1991, which is kind of funny, because I'm listening to a song with 'trance remix' in the title right now and it's from 1988.

- is it not possible that the original track is from 1988, and the remix was done later? Just saying, seeing as I've heard (unfortunately) the trance remix of Jefferson Airplane's 'Don't you want somebody to love?'

[edit] Trance culture associated with drugs

Excuse me, I am new here. I am trance music fan, and i'm disagree with the statement that trance culture is strongly interwined with drugs. I've never taken any drugs and still feel trance music really nicely. It's a personal choice whether to take drugs or no but i've never heard any direct propaganda od taking drugs by trance producers as it could be heard by some rock producers (mind me if I'm wrong). So I'm disagree with TUF-KAT's reverted edition of my correction. Have you any provements that trance culture is that much inspired by taking drugs? In my mind trance music has as the same aesthetical part as classical music for many others.

I also would like to know TUF-KAT's opinion about this problem. Thanks in advance. Transcend

I reverted because As it is widely considered, contemporary trance culture is heavily intertwined with drugs. isn't coherent. I don't know anything about the subject, and am just trying to keep the article readable. Tuf-Kat 15:19, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

Well, maybe you could make it more coherent? What about "It is widely considered that contemporary trance culture..."?
By the way, I think more information about trance music producers needs to be added. Many of those who are mentioned almost don't produce or play trance anymore, like John Digweed or BT.

At least your suggestion is a normal, understandable sentence, but it's still not very good. If you want to make the section better, find some people who hold varying opinions on the subject and explain what they believe and why. Your change is probably incorrect, since I don't think trance is "widely considered" to be anything -- most people don't listen to it and couldn't care less. It would be best to quote some DJs or whatever that make the claim, and others that make the counterclaim. Tuf-Kat 11:20, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Comment. This is a very silly argument... early "trance culture" came from rave culture, it was very associated with drugs, "smart drinks" and all kinds of nonsense. But the music was supposed to produce or enhance an effect, that can be experienced with or without drugs. Let us not whitewash the history, I was part of early LA rave culture 1990-93 and would say 90% were on drugs and not just ecstacy the hard stuff too, they'd mix it with all kinds of crap! Today I'd guess the influence of drugs is a lot less... I sure hope so, that we can just enjoy the music... today's music is a lot better too.

I have no disargeement with the statement itself, that trance culture and recreational drug use are intertwined, but the paragraph that mentions this has it as the first (therefore most important?) sentence and is not followed by any further comment about drug use related to the trance scene. The two following sentences are instead broad statements without any proof or related comments on which anyone interested could easily write a lengthy paper. IMO, this entire paragraph needs to be deleted or lengthened into three paragraphs explaining and expanding on each sentence in it. And without too much debate, I would argue that the second sentence regarding trance being "as much about who plays the music" is false. Modern trance artists still very much conform to old patterns in trance while also slowly remake and redefine trance with every new creation, as in any music genre.

    • Its just like all other types of music. All popular youth music is associated with drugs. Rock and Rap are too so why highlight the fact dance music is!
The media certainly perceives the drug relation to trance (and other forms of electronic music) more clearly than it does for Rock and Rap, though. In the case of this topic, the comment should note probably say something along the lines of, "The Mainstream often percieves trance culture as being heavily intertwined with drug use." It's still somewhat unweildy, but I don't think it can be both precise and short.

[edit] Early trance

The current history seems to mostly omit early trance, with the exception of Psychic TV's work. What about Chris & Cosey's 1982 album Trance? --Delirium 23:15, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

Interesting that you specifically mention Chris and Cosey since like Genesis (Pyschic TV), they were former members of Throbbing Gristle.
The Trance element in TG's stuff can be traced all the way back to Hot on the Heels of Love from [20 Jazz Funk Greats]. As pointed out above, C&C's album Trance was a major development in this sound ('Hot on the heels...' is regarded as very much a Chris Carter track). Psychic TV came to the style later, largely around '85 with their "hyperdelic" sound. Donnacha 12:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of vs

I am curious as to the meaning and usage of "vs" in trance band names. For example, the band Sunscreem Vs Push (Please Save Me), or Delerium Vs Leigh Nash. Anyone know the meaning behind it please shed some light. Thanks.

It means versus, AFAIK it originated in the Jamacan dub/rockers/soundsystem scene in the 70's, often two producers would go up against each other at a party or even on an album, so you see Scientist vs Prince Jammy and King Tubby vs Lee Perry. The trend continued with dance music and hip hop, in trance it ususlly means a colaboratively produced or remixed track. Htaccess 08:01, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It could be three different things (nowadays, and in this context):

- "vs" as "&", that means colaborations between artists and/or DJs
- "vs" as "remix of" that means one DJ remixing one song done by other author (maybe not a dance track)
- "vs" as "feat." (similar to "&" but with a singer)

[edit] Matt Darey's place in trance?

  • Hi, I think somebody may have speedy-deleted the Matt Darey article. I thought it was there a few weeks ago as a stub. Anyways, I'm asking about his notability within trance. I got two of his CDs this past weekend (Upfront Trance and Point Zero), and he claims that his works have sold over 2 million copies. His work's also been on Digitally Imported a lot. Wouldn't that be considered notable? My other question is: would any of the songs on Upfront Trance be considered genre-defining? I was thinking specifically of "Gamemaster" by Lost Tribe. --Idont Havaname 22:46, 29 May 2005 (UTC)
    • The Matt Darey article was recreated, and I've expanded it. If there are no objections, I'd like his series of songs "Liberation" ("Liberation 2004", "Liberation 2005", etc.) or his song "Beautiful" to be added to the list. (Unfortunately, I don't know how they stand as genre-defining/-representing songs; they just seem rather popular among Darey's fans.) --Idont Havaname 19:04, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Matt Darey's Liberation should definitely be put on the track list. He was identified by Paul Oakenfold to be the main source of inspiration for his career as well. Checking for source. Avery 15:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Excessive linking

The links are getting out of control, they need to be serverly pruned. Wikipedia is not delicious or a collaborative link farm, links should be to other material of an encyclopediac nature and not every fan site out there. Htaccess

Done, sort of. — Phil Welch 00:18, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

I visited all of the links, only 2 seemed to have good info on trance music in general, one is an article on trance and is clearly useful, the other is a dj bio site, which is probably resonably informative but i wouldnt object to it being deleted. The rest were links to review sites, online record stores/lables, streaming radio shows, forums in a variety of languages, and a blog, none of which had much information on trance music in general. Could probably have kept the global underground link as its fairly representative. Htaccess

[edit] Sonique's It Feels So Good ?

Should Sonique's It Feels So Good be added to the genre defining list ? It was one of the first mass apeal trance songs - im currently working at beefing up Sonique's page Dowew 03:19, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

    All true, except it's not trance.

I strongly agree, I don't consider it trance.

That track is trance, mainstream/bubblegum etc. in the vein of Alice DeeJay and those other Dutch of Belgian mainstream trance tracks.

Actually Sonique's It Feels So Good was not Trance. I say "was not" because the original is Dance. Someone made a Trance remix however. Jon Dilinger 11:16 am, 07/30/06

[edit] Origins/Pre -- all messed up (I was there)

Trance began as a softer, more melodic offshoot of Techno. around 92/93. If you check some old Rising High and Evolution records comps you will see the genesis of this sound. DJ's would freely mix this with harder tracks, the scene was very heterogeneous in 90-93 and wouldn't get fragmented until later. I would say pivotal tracks are FSOL "Papua New Guinea", Jam and Spoon "Stella", Opus 3 "It's a Fine Day", in laying down the basic melodies and feel. These were very popular at the time. Then the Goa parties started becoming known around that time and I remember getting my first comp in late 94... this was very melodic, not at all dark or industrial sounding like that genre would become. Hallucinogen "Twisted" which is still in print (c. 1995?) is a good summary of these days.

The idea of Trance, idea of electronic music taking people on a journey came from two roots. First, the "cosmic" music of Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, etc. in the early 70's, which focused on synths repeating simple melodic patterns, and certain "German" chord progressions that would heavily influence the early 90's producers. Two forgotten classics of this time are Michael Hoenig "Departure from the Northern Wasteland" this is already very late, maybe 1977, and Automat s/t. (And then of course Jarre, can't forget him he was always influential, but the lighter more optimistic melodies of his records don't often appear on the trance records, trance is always a bit "German" sounding no matter who produces it today...) It is no accident that around 1992/93 all of this music that was out of print, started getting re-released. Second, the electronic and Hi-NRG disco as started by Giorgio Moroder. ("I Feel Love", "The Chase", ...) This style reached its apex around 1980/81 with forgotten, epic tracks like Tantra "Hills of Katmandu" Patrick Cowley "Sea Hunt" Kano "Ikeya-Seki" and so on ... all of these can be traced back to Moroder's style, and aimed to produce a similar effect as Trance does today. Patrick Cowley had very much the mind of a Trance producer in 1980/81, about as tripped out as one could be with electronics in those days, before going for a more mainstream even rock-oriented sound shortly before his death in 1982

Anyway I hope that someone will at least try to tell the truth on this site

[edit] Trance origins...

As the poster above mentioned, this article is missing quite a lot in terms of the origins of trance, and crediting the proper people. For instance trance has been an established genre since the 70's era, with artists such as Tomita, not the early 90s as this article suggests. Trance had been a term used to decribe a sub-genre of new age music since at least then...

[edit] Disco, Force Legato, Trance, and Dark Trance.

I read in the Trance music section about this German synthesist named Klaus Schulze and that he had recorded some albums with the words Trance in the titles, Trancefer and En=Trance. I have also read about Oliver Lieb's System that was made in 1989. I also saw something about Dark Trance? I'll start with the Disco first. Disco has always had a hypnotic and repeatitive theme to it. The same thing with Trance. If you listen to something like Age of Love for example, it sounds nothing like Disco. Even though times change, instruments shouldn't. So the real thing I'm looking for is what instruments did Disco use? Did it also use a drum machine like a lot of todays Electronic music or did it use a drum kit? And I think Disco was more inspiration upon House music seeing both have close similarities in the atmosphere of that music.

As for Force Legato/Oliver Lieb. Techno was made around in the 80s and even at that time Trance had a lot of similarities with Techno. But the only thing different about those two are the breaks. But until I actually hear this, I really can't say anything about that.

Last but not least, the term Dark Trance has no existance. You may have seen it in Ishkur's Guide, but I can say he talks more non-sense than he does about the history or musicology and styles of these genres. But I can tell you that there are two types of "dark" Trance. Gothic and Deep Trance. Agree with me or not, but there are a lot who don't agree with the word dark.

[edit] Hardstyle

Shouldn't Hardstyle be a fusion genre? - As it "is closely related to nu style gabber and hard trance" Reubot 05:08, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mainstream Popularity?

OK I decided to take a look in this Trance article for it still amazes me. However I noticed a slight change. Trance is mainstream, yes, but pretty much in the UK/Europe. To say that it is mainstream without telling where says that Trance is often played on the radio or in a lot of peoples' cars in every part of the world. Could someone fix this? Odd Faden 3/14/06 10:25 am

agreed, trance is not mainstream, I think the whole section could be deleted. Crazekid 17:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Trance is mainstream, maybe not in the places you come from. I even went to Ecuador once and saw Tiesto unplanned on my 2nd day in a rave with about 5000 people!

In South America it may be mainstream. But in the US it isn't all that mainstream at all. No one ever brings it up, rarely will you hear someone playing a track by Tiësto or anyone else for that matter. And when a Trance theme is heard someone will always ask what it is, who made it and where can they get it. The only answers come from clubbers or people who have been exposed to the music from someone else. The only mainstream this music has gotten here was Cascada. Odd Faden 5/18/06 10:59 am

...As a european (sorry, a non-american) I can say that it gets a little tiring seeing most info on the web discuss subjects and events from a very skewed US point of view...You want this section changed or deleted because it has no relevance to the US (in your opinion) but are you aware that whenever the rest of the world hears about an americans involvement in any subject we are expected (by americans) to accept this as some kind of ultra-important global standard no matter how irrelevant or mundane the actual event/action is?....Take the american electronica artist BT for example, a musical genius no doubt, but hardly the massive influence on the eurotrance scene as his wiki article would have you believe, he was after all, just one artist amongst many...so i think this article should stay as it is..Wikipedia after all, is for the people of the world not just the USA... There arent a whole lot of people playing country and western in europe but try to tell an american that it is not a mainstream genre and you will get an earful of abuse for sure...

In Sweden and probably the rest of Europe club trance is indeed mainstream. Go into a night club in Sweden and you'll hear trance all night. It's also played at radio stations aimed at younger people. It actually surprises me that it's not considered mainstream in the US because it's so popular over here. Jiiimbooh 15:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Trance is mainstream. From a UK perspective its not at the height of its popularity at the moment, but it is nevertheless firmly routed as a mainstream music form - people understand it as a genre, are aware of notable trance artists (even if they are unaware that they ate trance artists etc.). Early Q 20:35, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree about that Trance is NOT mainstream. I live in Sweden and the only time we hear Trance on radio or tv (mtv) is when they play the very "light" vocal trance. That is a sub-genre of Trance and its very much the same like euro-techno. In mainland-euro Trance is more accepted and more well-known but no way mainstream. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.216.80.101 (talk) 22:03, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Paul Oakenfold favoritism

I'd like to point out that 7 out of 11 of the songs on Paul Oakenfold's Tranceport album are listed in the "Notable Trance Records." Somebody obviously loves that CD very much.

  • Greece 2000 by Three Drives
  • Purple (Sasha vs. The Light mix) by Gus Gus
  • Someone (Slacker's Rolling mix) by Ascension
  • El Niño by Agnelli & Nelson
  • Café Del Mar by Energy 52
  • 1998 by Binary Finary
  • Words by Paul Van Dyk -- ALSO: The proper title for this is Words (For Love)

In my honest opinion, although I enjoy every song on the album, only "Paul Van Dyk - Words (For Love)" is actually unique enough in style and dynamics to be noteworthy. I am on the fence about "Energy 52 - Café Del Mar", because the Three N One Mix shifts to a very appealing triplets set in the last three minutes of the song...however, it is not inherently unique from other songs in any other way. edit: after listening to it again, I decided El Niño isn't all that original anyways. DLGrif 16:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with El Nino being removed from this list, but I think Cafe del Mar and Greece 2000 should be considered notable. They are both genre defining classics. Binary Finary should stay too. Crazekid 19:12, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Bombot 16:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

DLGrif you got it completely the other way around. It is exactly BECAUSE these tracks are classics that they were included in Tranceport. Oakenfold meant this to be an introduction to listeners not accustomed to trance music and he chose the very best out there. There is no association with Oakenfold because most trance lovers were familiar with these tracks long before he decided to include them in Tranceport. After all none of them is his. Now especially about Cafe Del Mar, I (and many many others) knew this track from the original four mixes (and especially Porte De Bagnolet Mix) which were 5 years older than the three n one mix. --Avg 20:01, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Generalized Musicology References

In reference to the Musicology of Trance, I find it a general waste of space to list all the possible forms and compositional techniques that are employed by the genre; that so many exceptions must be added to the article for what encompasses Trance, that the only thing an interested reader will obtain by reading this article is uncertainty and confusion. While certain aspects like general BPM can be confidently listed, this section meanders from exception to exception for each element of the genre.

Example: "The arrangement consists mostly of a repeating 16th note sequencing arpeggio, and a bass section of whole notes usually drifting through the aeolian or natural minor scale. Harmonic structure is typically minimalist, with often no more than 2-4 chords. Iterations of the i-iv-v progression (A minor, D minor, and E minor, for example) lend a dark feel by eschewing major chords entirely. Additional rhythm sections are added and subtracted every 16 measures (sometimes 8, and sometimes 32) to add weight and anticipation to the composition. The bass chord will usually change every 4 measures."

Why should one create such an extensively-asterisked section? How will this supplement the center idea of Trance? Seemingly, this passage's only purpose is to confuse the reader with its musical verbosity. The number of adjectives that describe simple concepts in the Musicology section is overdone to the point of obfuscation. The object of the article is to educate, not flatter with vocabularistic music knowledge. Simply put, the headlining paragraphs of the Musicology section are too filled with inconclusive statements and unsupported riffraff. The entire section can be rewritten as follows:

Trance is a style that employs a 4/4 time signature, complimented by a 4/4 bass drum on its downbeats. Utilizing synthesizers and drum machines, Trance has a BPM of 130-160 beats per minute. Argpeggios and minor scales are common features.

While I could cretique this section furthermore, it is not in my interest to create a flamewar. Just condense the Musicology section into a simple, understandable format. This is wikipedia. People do not come here to hear about how Supersaw preset modulation is accesible through knob functions on their Midi sampling keyboard. This is not a guide on "How to Create Your Own Trance Song." It is an abriged outlook on a popular form of electronic music.

Omgfreshbeatsnap 01:29, 8 May 2006 (UTC)Omgfreshbeatsnap

I have to agree. The few times I've read that it left me confused and the way you put it is almost perfect. Odd Faden 5/18/06 10:59 am

I agree. I found your suggestion to explain trance well, while the other stuff was completely incomprehensible. I've reworked this section to include your suggestion and removed part of the old stuff. JYolkowski // talk 22:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] BPM

I have changed the genral BPM from 130 - 160 to 130 - 140. Trance is rarely above even 140, let alone 150 or 160. Anyone disagree? Saleen7 05:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC) Some of Holdens music (such as Nothing (93' Returning Mix)) is actually often referred to as progressive trance and alot of his stuff is in 126-128 BPM?

What I think we should do is this. We should set an alternate version of BPMs vs the very early 90s, late 80s BPM compared to todays. Because in the past Trance had a pretty steady tempo consisting of 130 - 140 BPM. Because I have come across a couple of Trance CDs that had BPMs at 150 - 160. Music evolves over time. And unlike long ago, Trance is still what it was before but more progressive. So here is what I think we should do. We should say that in the past Trance played often around 130 - 140 BPM and in today's style it plays from 130 and very rarely up to 150 - 160. Also, I noticed longer breakdowns in most of todays Trance unlike the 90s. Jon Dillinger

"a BPM of 130-165 beats per minute"

I think this would better read as "a tempo of 130-165 BPM" (and you still get the BPM abbreviation in there). Redundancy is a pet peeve of mine, sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.48.210.78 (talk) 11:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Progressive Trance/Progressive House

I'd like to say that this statement is actually false. How does a genre that's already in a category land into both? It's either Trance or House and seeing I listen to a lot of Progressive Trance, I know for sure that it is not House. Progressive House sounds like Trance, yes, but there is a large distinction between the way both genres sound. Thought I'd just get that off my chest. Jon Dillinger 11:49 pm 9/25/06

I agree with it. Prog trance is a defunct now, and it was classic trance with more melodies (notes) added to it, and breakdowns (however not as large breakdowns as dutch trance tracks) + done with better equipment. Prog house was house with more "atmosphere"... Well this one is hard to describe, but it's done by Leftfield, and if you check one of their tracks, you'll see it's not like Sasha: Xpander just for a simple example. Also prog house has some trance elements too, but not the same style. And by the way both prog trance & house are defunct nowdays. I mean what they now call progressive house (or just progressive) is not the same genre that those ones. Plus lot of thoose djs are playing now techhouse-like stuffs. It's interesting now what happened, a lot of new subgenres emerged, and there's not really a name for them, so they call them progressive whatever & techtrance. Techtrance is the funniest, it can be anything from a psytrance influenced progtrance-like track to Marco V. I also noticed everybody now fusing techno elements with some other style, so now we have Techno Body Music, Psytechno, Techtrance, Techhouse & even tech-techtechno, blah! --TaZaR 13:59, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

  • "even tech-techtechno" what, like 2Unlimited ;) Cxk271 20:23, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Motorcycle

Thought I'd let you guys and gals know something. Motorcycle isn't the full name. Not that it is necessary to change it I guess, but the full name is Motorcycle Boy.

Jon Dillinger 12:01 PM 9/26/06

[edit] Twadle

Trance music has been around for many many thousands of years the only thing that has changed overtime are the tools that are used to make it.

Trance music is not a off spin from Acid House or any other form of Electronic music. It has developed as man has developed through time evolving from hypnotic primitive tribal rhythms. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Co55ie (talk • contribs) 14:57, 7 October 2006

Chopin's music could put you in a state of trance if you listened to it. Certain music itself can do that. Repetition puts anyone in a sort of rapture if they listen to it. Trance hasn't been around since the Middle Ages. It is only what our minds take in. Jon Dillinger 11:09 am, 10/24/06 (UTC)
The original point is valid. There have been musics specifically for trance purposes for millenia. Examples abound, including the Sufi trance music of Joujouka plus lots of indigenous music around the world. Chopin's music is not "trance music" despite the fact that it may put a few in that state. Hu 01:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

That is what I meant about Chopin's music. If you want an example of what you're talking about, [unsigned user], search for "Heart of the Forest". :) Jon Dillinger 11:00 am, 10/25/06 (UTC)

[edit] What about Tech Trance

What about it? It's not there. The Ronin 22:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Why not just add it then? It is after all a real genre. Said to be Trance with Techno elements. Jon Dillinger 11:05 am, 10/24/06 (UTC)

[edit] Cyber Trance

This was/is a heavy movement in late 90's in San Francisco, CA Bay Area towards a space (as in NASA) and time, future to be exact, influence. Main producers of this type of trance are Mars, Dyloot, Mystre, Commander Tom. Labels include Skill DJ Workshop[2] (Berkeley) and Frequency 8[3] (San Francisco).Hackajar 13:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Thoughts on this movement? Is it large enough for inclusion, mention? Hackajar 13:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
  • Never heard of it...... The Ronin 01:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I have a CD with Fragma's track "How Do You Feel?" that is a Cyber Trance Remix. Can't say whether or not it is an actual genre though. Jon Dillinger 11:01 am, 10/24/06 (UTC)

Hackajar is correct. It was well covered by the Subsonic radio show with Aaron Axelson that ran on Live 105 FM for about nine years till 2005. It was a crisp, disciplined form of trance with long running pieces, but I'd be hard-pressed to definitively distinguish it from other forms of trance. Hu 01:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dark Trance

i refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Trance_music#Disco.2C_Force_Legato.2C_Trance.2C_and_Dark_Trance. Dark trance is a genre, just a small and largely unknown one, but it still is a genre. I will be creating a dark trance article soon. want to help? give me a buzz Eevo 14:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Dark Trance is a commonly misused name for Gothic Trance. Jon Dillinger 10:06 am 11/03/06 (UTC)

i would dissagree. d/l a goth trance mix, and d/l a dark trance mix, and they are very different. goth is more vocally, more german sounding where dark has an element of psy in it. Eevo 13:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Eevo. "Goth trance" is more vocal and more melodramatic than dark trance, much to the point where it is synonymous with the industrial subgenre Futurepop. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.161.51.2 (talk) 17:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Confining artists to a single genre

I think the table that discusses the different "schools" of trance is a great addition, but placing DJs within a specific category can be misleading. For example, placing Tiësto, PvD, and Armin van Buuren in Anthem and Uplifting Trance is not really appropriate considering that they all mix other genres of trance as well. Perhaps it would be best to remove that column or clarify the message it is trying to convey? D1lux 23:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed POV statement

This was in "Commertial Trance".

  • By this time, the original trance musicians had moved far away, leaving a trail of chav-filled Ibiza nightclubs in their place.

Certainly not encyclopedic in tone, and it really is kind of irrelevant to the article. Just leavng it here in case someone disagrees with its removal. (|-- UlTiMuS 07:34, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Transeau --> trance?

The following should be (has been) removed from the lead section: The name "Trance" may have also been coined in part from the last name of Brian Transeau (more commonly known as BT), widely considered "The Father of Trance." It is unsourced and unreferenced, and looks like original research. As speculation it has no place in the lead, though conceivably it might elsewhere in the article. Hu 16:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that BT never did Trance in the beginning. His earlier stuff was House music, Breaks, and then Progressive Trance music.

From: BT_10 YearsInTheLife

Producer's Note:

I had already been a fan of Brian "BT" Transeau's music for a couple of years when I heard "Love, Peace and Grease" for the first time. I completely freaked. Having grown up listening to artists like Prince, Run-D.M.C., and Public Enemy, I was blown away by BT's fusion of old-school breaks with futuristic textures. It was a sonic collage: Miami Bass meets Kraftwerk in 2010. And it was only 1997.

Movement in Still Life followed in 1999. From the opening track, I knew that the way I heard music would be forever changed. There was Hip-Hop. Trance. Breakbeats. Vocals. Even video game samples. The album spawned several huge dance hits, including "Dreaming" and "Never Gonna Come Back Down," and established intricacy, with the amount of time spent programming the music, it's amazing he didn't get carpal tunnel!

He's been called the "Godfather of Trance." BT shaped the sounds of Trance music in his parents' house in rural Maryland and went on to pioneer recording techniques such as shutter edits that have shown up on everything from Linkin Park to Madonna records. He practically invented the "breakdown" in Dance music. From House to Trance to Breakbeat, BT has successfully broken through the stereotype of the faceless "Dance Act" to become one of the most sought-after producer-remixer-composers in the world. For the past decade he has been creating music that has continually challenged both himself and his fans. His resume includes remixes for Sarah McLachlan and Deep Dish. As a producer, he has worked with such noted artists as Peter Gabriel and Tori Amos. And his ability to musically grasp emotion has helped him to achieve a successful film-scoring career (Go, The Fast and the Furious, and Driven to name just a few) as well. His unique energy and spirit are captured in each piece of music he creates.

The songs collected here are a reflection of BT's growth as an artist and his unabashed willingness to take risks. Just be prepared to never hear music the same way again."

Graig DeGraff, Los Angeles. June 2002

Jon Dillinger 5:47 PM, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About Festivals

Tried to add some links about Festivals. Was considered as spam by some (reverted). Altough, the festivals listed where organized by more than one company and tried to be representative of the genre. (If some were missing they could have been added). Isn't a list of important festivals for a genre of music not representative of it ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.48.80 (talk) 18:14, 3 January 2007

Looks like it is in there as of January 4th, 5:54 UTC Robogymnast 05:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

No section was removed by : 22:57, 3 January 2007 Hatch68 (Talk | contribs) (spam links removal)

I won't add it again unless I have more input about it (and will make changes accordingly if necessary). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.48.80 (talk) 18:14, 3 January 2007

[edit] Psychedelic and Goa trance

I wondered that mentioning of Psychedelic trance and Goa trance was removed from the article in spite of the fact that they are the subgenres of trance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.80.163.221 (talk) 14:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

I was wondering the same thing... I shall add them back. Also, this article really needs a few references and some more external links as sources. Danski14 04:24, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that edit was clearly vandalism by an anon IP, with no edit summary or anything. In the future, don't be afraid to be BOLD and revert back changes you see in the future. Danski14 04:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Goa section was removed again, so I added it back. I spend a lot of time and effort with a great number of people around the world to keep the psy/goa vibe alive, so keeping Wiki on the level is but a small task.  :) Fuzzikitten 18:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)Fuzzikitten

Goa and psytrance sections restored again. Fuzzikitten 21:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Fuzzikitten

This is already the third time that 200.168.32.36 has removed the Goa and Psy contents. If the removal is repeated without any discussion, please revert on sight. Ayla 16:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

And a fourth time 200.168.32.36 removed any mention of Goa and Psy trance. Also noted user replaced paragraph on future of trance with their own inclinations/opinions/etc without any sources. Reverted entire changes. 200.168.32.36, if you feel you have something to contribute/change, please make a case for it here in the discussion page.Fuzzikitten 16:56, 9 March 2007 (UTC)Fuzzikitten

200.168.32.36 is at it again as user 200.153.197.72, stripping out any/all mention of goa and psychedelic trance. Changes undone. Fuzzikitten 13:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Refer to the discussions here and here to see why this vandal cannot be stopped. Except, possibly, by requesting for page protection, if you really feel up to that. Happy reverting! Ayla 14:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Page semi-protected for 13 days. That should stop the vandal for the time being, unless he/she figures out how to start creating user accounts. Ayla 14:51, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. This will give me a 13-day breather. Back April 1 to keep checking. Thanks for your help Ayla Fuzzikitten 15:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

This is becoming a joke. Page semi-protection expired less than 24 hours ago, and the Goa/Psy vandal has already struck again. To make things worse, it appears that they have a dynamic IP, so blocking them is definitely not an option. Unfortunately, long-term page semi-protection seems to be the only solution. Ayla 22:57, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pizzicato Trance???

The style someone added, and the artists he named is exactly what has been called "Anthem House" (the term came from The KLF). Yes, it was trancy at all, but I've never been meet the expression "Pizzicato Trance", where is it came from?

I've never heard that term either. I agree with you that the artists he mentioned are Anthem House. But frankly, I'm more upset that the supposed subgenre "Hands Up" and its terrible description is in the main article.

==

[edit] Answers.com

Answers.com took it´s text and reference from Wikpedia some years ago and Wikipedia should look just like that site. Where is the Trance history? Somebody must have deleted that. So I will copy that text from Answers.com and put it right in. Discuss here what you think about it! Now Trance music on Wikipedia looks like a stub... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.216.31.151 (talk) 22:29, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] List of notable trance music records

The free-for-all add-your-favourite record "list of notable records" was bringing this article down considerably, as was the spam infested external links section. I've split the list out to List of notable trance music records and zapped the external links. If you want to put any links back or add new ones please carefully assess the importance and quality of the site first and, preferably, discuss it here. This isn't a bad article at all so let's not allow it to degenerate again. Truly notable, vitally important songs should be mentioned in the prose, by the way, as many already are. The list was just messy baggage. --kingboyk 12:39, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and I have moved the relevant discussions along with it. Hope that isn't bad etiquette or whatever, but it makes sense to me, as that is now where those discussions (on which tracks to include etc) should now be taking place.Arthur Markham 23:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
The List of notable trance music records article was nominated for deletion on 22 February 2007. The result of the discussion was delete. However, a provision was made that "no prejudice [would be held] against an article under the same name being created providing it is reliably sourced as per the constructive discussions below." I would encourage anyone considering undertaking this task to read through the the AfD discussion in order to be aware of the arguments brought up both against and in favour of such an article's existence, and to avoid any violation of policies (especially NPOV, attribution and notability) that might lead to its renomination for deletion. For anyone interested, I have maintained a copy of the last version of the article (sans tags) and its talk page on my userspace. Ayla 21:01, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of notable trance music tracks

I can see that the "List of notable trance music records" has been deleted but there is an excellent site at the en.allexperts.com that has a list of tracks that did a big impact in the genre. So I did put that link (http://en.allexperts.com/e/t/tr/trance_music.htm) here under external links. The list is very informative and therefore useful for us who care about the first hit-tracks that helped form the genre.

But the link got deleted. I want to hear your opinion about the idea of putting it back and KEEPING it there.

A number of points:
* I fixed the link in your post, it had an extra ".htm" which rendered it invalid.
* Make sure to sign your posts by adding four tildes (~~~~) at the end. I would advise you to do so on your last post as well.
* I really hate having to break this to you myself, but the link you posted is nothing more than a mirror of the deleted Wikipedia article. You can check the link I gave above for a copy of the last version of the article.
Ayla 22:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
So, Ayla, what you are telling me is that we can't have an external link to en.allexperts.com because it is a mirror of a deleted Wikipedia article? If you know about trance history you can see that those listed tracks are a very important part of the evolution of the genre and most important of all: it presents trance music for those who wonder what kind of music it is. So please tell me what to do to keep the link in the article or how to make people aware of it's existent. You must see it's importance. 83.248.196.48 17:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
You know, it is really ironic that someone is trying to persuade me about a point I myself vehemently defended just a few weeks ago. No, 83.248.196.48, I am not questioning the importance of such a list, but the outcome of this discussion was to remove the list from Wikipedia. I only wanted to warn you that reintroducing it by means of a link to a mirror site seems to be a little controversial. Ayla 18:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I have requested for page semi-protection as it was the only way of stopping the Psy/Goa vandal (refer to the discussion above). Since you appear to be interested in contributing to this article, I would recommend you to create a user account in order to be able to continue doing so. Ayla 14:49, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About vocal trance

A comment further down mentions vocal trance

I think it would be pushing it to say that trance is 'vocal-less, blippy and repetitive'. The word trance is more of a blanket term for many different types of electronica. Vocal Trance is very popular in Europe and is built solely around female vocals. I think a sub-genre of trance that most closely matches your definition is goa/psychedelic trance, which usually does not have female vocals. My point is that I agree with the original author, I see no harm in discussing Vocal Trance here.

Trance, as a blanket term, has, does have, and will always have vocals in atleast part of them. Vocal Trance, while is a more definitive definition, is often mixed in with every other type of trance in livesets, cd's, etc. I do support the idea of discussing Vocal Trance, it might do best in it's own category. Trance page should stay very broad so the general idea behind trance is preserved.

Also, I wouldn't say Vocal Trance is built around female vocals. I have a nice collection of male vocal ones as well, though they are harder to find. In Vocal Trance, female vocals are predominant, but I wouldn't go as far as to say they are "usually about intense romantic longing", though a lot are (pritty much like any genre nowadays), wouldn't say usually.

Anithira 01:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Sash!'s "Ecuador" pops to mind as one that's definetely not based around female vocals. But I guess groups like Fragma etc are still predominant in the vocal trance genre. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a lot of female vocals in trance because generally female vocals are more popular in music in general, so it's not something specific to trance.Leigao84 22:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why have we forgotten to mention traditional Schlager folk music as a possible source of the style?

Trance sounds exactly like what would happen if you adapted traditional Schlager folk music for the clubs. Everything about the overt rhythms found generally in trance alludes to Schlagermusik. The syncopated bass throb definitely alludes to what one might consider the low brass or tuba part of the "oom-pah." Gunther haas 02:30, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Trance' received its name from the repetitious morphing beats, and the throbbing melodies which would presumably put the listener into a trance-like state.

i don't believe this statement to be true, as i understood it the term 'trance' came from the name a particular track that escapes me. --Neon white 00:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


I think I read somewhere that one theory is the name came from the group Dance 2 Trance, so technically perhaps the sentence should be reworded. A good reference would be very helpful on this point, but I haven't found one. Danski14(talk) 00:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
yes, that's the track, i remember hearing it from someone, whether it's true, it's hard to say. There a lack of knowledge as to origin of the term which should be pointed out. --Neon white 00:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
added this. It may need reworking:

'The origin of the term is ambiguous with suggestions that the term is derived from the Klaus Schulze album Trancefer[1] or the early trance act Dance 2 Trance though it is likely that both these uses are linked to the perceived ability of a drum beat to induce altered states of consciousness.'

--Neon white 17:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation tag

Adding a Citation tag is well enough... But it's dated two months into the future... Eh? Cwattengard 09:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

I boldly quick-failed this article, as it is entirely devoid of sources. There was one citation in it; however, it appeared to be a word for word copy of this very page so I removed it. There are also some issues with tone -- phrases such as "bounced around", "a much more global, if not chart-bound, presence", etc. This is my first GA review, so please let me know if I did anything wrong. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 04:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you did anything wrong. The article has no references, so it obviously should be quick-failed. However, I think the reference should stay, even if it is a word-for-word copy. Any reference is better than none. That can be remedied later as the article is improved. --haha169 (talk) 03:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Israeli trance

aparently, the existence of israeli trance is completely omitted in this article. It is a trance genre often involving arabic sounding instruments and sounds different than most european trance. One typical israeli trance artist is DJ Yahel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.13.186.1 (talk) 00:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] References

I have been working quite hard to get references for this article and would appreciate some help. I consider my self somewhat knowledgeable about trance music, and in my opinion this article is quite accurate, (this is to be expected, it has gone through a long evolution of development to get to this point). However, while the core descriptions are easily verifiable, I am finding it nearly impossible to specifically reference all of the numerous statements made. The trouble is that the genre is so new and diverse, that it is hard to find scholarly articles discussing trance at length. The only that I have found are the article on trance-inducing music (which is reputable), and this article on psychadelic trance (not yet incorporated).

I don't know of any books written specifically about trance, but I have heard that the book "Strange Sounds" [4] is a good resource. However, I dont plan on buying myself...

There are many short blog posts and articles on numerous fan sites, such as at allmusicguide [5] and at [Trance Planet http://tranceplanet.org/trancepedia/general]. These all count as independent sources, however they are not all necessarily reliable or un-biased. Certainly, things like Ishkur's guide are reputable. Ishkur is one of the most revered documentarians of rave culture on the internet. I agree however, that the "listology" posts could be seen as biased or orginal research, I only added them because they contain a wealth of information (even if it is opionated), however per wikipedia policy I will remove them.

I believe the rest of the references are not optimal but are better than nothing, and removing them seems only contrary the effort. Danski14(talk) 18:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I just relized that the link above on listology has broken. But you can still see it here [6] Also, if anyone can get any of these books : [7] that would be great. Danski14(talk) 18:52, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
The following titles all contain references on the subject but remain unreferenced:
Trance Formation, Trance Experience: An Introduction to Electronic Dance Music, Psychedelic White: Goa Trance and the Viscosity of Race, Techno-trance: Una rivoluzione di fine millennio (Italian), Global Trance Culture, Ecstasy: Dance, Trance and Transformation, Altered State: The Story of Ecstasy Culture and Acid House, Rave Culture: An Insider's Overview, Encyclopedia of contemporary British culture, The Dance Music Manual: Tools, Toys and Techniques. The liner notes to the Trance Europe Express compilations could be deemed a published source. Ishkur is inaccurate, self-published, and the classifications are disputable, it is not a verifiable source and is strongly WP:POV. Many of the other sources are simply not qualified sources, this is beyond dispute. The majority of this article is subject to WP:OR issues. It should ideally be rewritten with primary references from published sources and less WP:OR. It would then be passable. Some of the web sourced material could then be admissible as secondary sources. Semitransgenic (talk) 19:13, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
BTW Have you requested titles from your local library? Are you at university or do you know someone who is? If so, request titles via the inter-library loan scheme, if there is one available, and scan what you need. Download this free book, it's useful. Also take a look here Semitransgenic (talk) 19:58, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Sigh.. well my bad.. I would contend that Iskur's guide is a highly authoritative source, although opinionated (most sources are), it is considered the "bible" by most people interested in this stuff. Apparently its considered notable enough for its own wiki page even.. Also, I really thought that documentary I linked to was interesting (Berliner Trance) and relevant. But you are correct, what I really should do is get some books out of the library, but so far I haven't... I don't know if I'm that committed, but I might get that book "Strange Sounds"... What I was trying to say is its hard to find books specifically about trance. Your second link seems to suggest there may be some articles out there, however, if one digs deep enough. Danski14(talk) 22:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't agree that Iskur's guide is a bible, there are many who find his approach contentious, plus the wiki page was almost certainly entered by the guy himself and reads like an advert. Anyone who has a clue about the history of EDM would find fault with his survey. Also, anyone can present such a guide on the internet and claim it is authoritative, that's the whole point in having to provide reliable sources.If you are not committed you may simply not be interested enough in the topic to contribute to the article so why complain when unverifiable references are challenged? The Berliner Trance doc is in my opinion a usable source if you wish to reference interview quotes etc. from that. Semitransgenic (talk) 22:54, 8 June 2008 (UTC)