Talk:Traditionalist Catholic/Archives/2005/sbs-editing/overall-structure

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Overall structure

This is an archive subpage, which is transcluded into its parent archive. Careless edits to this page can break the archive system in use. An overview of the archives can be seen by clicking on "Archives" in the small list of links below the page title.

It's not necessary to agree to a complete structure for the article, but some generalisations are needed to make any meaningful progress in section-by-section editing. I propose the following preliminary basic structure:

// Pathoschild 22:05, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Here is my take. It is important to realize many Traditionalists are in good standing and full and faithful members of the Church. They enjoy good relationships with the Diocese in where they operate. Your divisions make it seem like most are not, this should be short to start from.
IMHO:

(oops lostsig) 23:30, 10 October 2005 (UTC) Dominick 23:32, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

My proposal for the basic structure:

N.B. I object to the use of phrases like "those in dispute with the Holy See" because it is vague and because the use of "Holy See" (or "Rome" or "the Church") has very definite and serious connotations for Catholics. I've explained my objections to this (numerous times) in earlier Talk Pages, but to cut to the chase: I think it is more accurate and less inflammatory to use the phrase "in dispute with Vatican hierarchs" -- but Dominick thinks this is "POV" for some reason. Used2BAnonymous 23:43, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Keeping in mind that I know next to nothing about traditionalist Catholics, I don't think there are sufficient differences between the types of traditionalist Catholics to create seperate sections for each. Dominick has suggested above describing them all under Characteristics of traditionalist belief, and Used2BAnonymous's version of the article does this anyway. Under one header, the text could describe the beliefs held by all groups, then give the differences in paragraph form. Used2BAnonymous suggests the headings Traditional Catholic Claims and Traditional Catholics as Contrasted with Other Catholics; those are topics that would likely be covered under the aforementioned Characteristics of traditionalist belief. Traditional Priestly Fraternities, Chapels, and Parishes and Liturgical links should be merged into Organisations, with subheadings in need be. Counter Opinions and Books supportive of the traditional Catholic movement aren't necessary, since these should be covered under a few of the other headings or in the external links section.

The heading Issues with Traditionalism proposed by Dominick suggests that there is something objectively wrong with the doctrine; I put forth Criticisms of Traditionalism as a more neutral heading, which could contain both the criticisms and any applicable refutation by traditionalists. The text under Demographics in Used2BAnonymous' version of the article strikes me as highly POV, so I've removed it in my proposal. If you think the text can be made more NPOV (do not discuss this, it will be discussed under it's own header later if controversial), feel free to add it back in. My above changes result in the following structure:

// Pathoschild 07:22, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't advocate different subheadings for each type of traditionalist; instead, I advocate, under one sub-heading, a numbered list broken down into two main sections: non-sedevacantist Catholic and sedevacantist Catholics. The first would have two nested items: Catholics who operate within ordinary diocesan structures and those who operate outside it. The reason I believe breaking it down in this manner is important is because for a Catholic seeking information, the FIRST thing he would want to know is "what do traditionalist Catholics believe about the Pope? Are they 'in communion' with 'Rome'?" The answer to that question is one of the KEY elements of the Catholic religion. Blending that above information with the section "Characteristics of traditionalist belief" would "create" an extremely long section.

In fact, upon further reflection, I think it would be wise to break it down like this: change of name in the first subheading because the "groups" referenced are priestly societies rather than "traditional Catholics" in general, and as it happens, a given traditional Catholic can (often does) float from "group" to "group" depending on his local situation, and the priestly fraternities have their own entries. Then move that section down below the opening section on traditional Catholic beliefs.

The revised outline I propose (this outline also leaves off demographics, which, BTW, I didn't write myself. I agree its language is too general and that citations are needed):

Used2BAnonymous 11:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I suggest changing What traditional Catholics believe to Traditionalist beliefs; this is more succinct, and hints that there are different beliefs (as appears to be the case, as per previous proposals). Where traditional Catholics worship could be renamed to Places of worship, which is more succint and more accurate (technically, Catholics should worship God everywhere and at all times, but only certain places are dedicated "places of worship"). I've added "groups" to the heading Relations with other Catholic groups, because this will likely not include relations between individual members of different groups. See also should be placed before the external links.

I doubt that there is sufficient information under Where traditional Catholics worship to break it into three different subheaders. This would be best left in paragraph form, with emphasisis on the names of the types of traditionalists if necessary. Books supportive of traditional Catholicism and Counter opinions should be placed under Opinions.

Based on the guidelines in Wikipedia:External_links, I think we should entirely eliminate the links to organisations, churches, et cetera except where these sites provide POV or information. We should also eliminate redundant informational links; this article is an informational page in itself, and only needs links to back it up. Liturgical matters, as far as I can tell, could be redistributed into Opinions and References. If applicable, some links should be converted to inline links. Criticisms of Traditionalism might be redistributed into Traditionalist beliefs (their positions) and Relations with other Catholic groups (the reaction). Are there relations between traditionalist groups? Taking into account the above and previous proposals, my revised structure is as thus:

// Pathoschild 17:12, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, I think this is totally workable -- with just one tweak. Under "Traditionalist beliefs," I wouldn't have two subheadings for sedes and non-sedes; I'd have a bulleted list with brief descriptions. And then would move on to the things that all traditional Catholics (using the second definition in the summary) believe. Used2BAnonymous 18:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

We still need to split the "Non-sedes", that term is absolutly unusable. I think the issue of leave for Mass is important. Many who take the time to attend Mass at a Diocesean approve Indult or approved Fraternity would not like to be lumped inwith vagus or excommunicated bodies. Dominick 18:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Things are looking prety good here, but I am responding to the request on the AMA page. If there is a desire and you think mediation would be helpful I am willign to help. Just let me know on my talk page or via e-mail as I will not be watching this page (to maintain impartiality). Thanks.Gator1 19:08, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

We could get rid of the two subheaders entirely. The first paragraph or two may describe common beliefs, while the remaining paragraphs describe different positions held by different groups. For example, take this text quoted directly from the Sedevacantism article, to which I've added a single line break and emphasis. The beginning describes traditionalists in general, then goes on to define different factions.

All Traditionalist Catholics are, by definition, opposed to the post-Conciliar reforms. Most traditionalists, however, would argue that, while the recent occupants of the Vatican may personally have held many scandalous or heretical beliefs, they have nevertheless been true Popes, and have never tried to use their infallible authority (which is only used very rarely) to teach heresy - something which all orthodox Catholics believe would be impossible.

Sedevacantists, by contrast, believe that these men's promulgation and endorsement of the post-Conciliar changes has made them guilty of heresy, and each in turn has hence either forfeited the papal office or rendered...

This section is for discussion of the headings under which information will be organised. The current headings are far too long. These headings should be renamed to be shortened, for example "Those in agreement with Holy See" instead of "Traditionalist Catholics not in dispute with the Holy See". For reference, the current structure of the article is as such:

// Pathoschild 21:49, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Although I can see the reasoning behind Used2BAnonymous's suggestion that this section be in list form, I disagree. Prose form is preferable because it is much more readable. Since I think paragraph prose is possible in this case without making the text any less functional, we should avoid list form. The structure with the subheadings removed:

// Pathoschild 20:44, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, a proposed beginning based on the structure above and your advice to use prose, not lists, in the opening sections: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Used2BAnonymous Used2BAnonymous 21:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. A work-in-progress version will be invaluable for section-by-section editing. I copied your version to Talk:Traditionalist Catholic/Consensus for later archiving. Used2BAnonymous and I both support the latest version of the structure; are there any more proposed changes from the other active contributors? // Pathoschild 22:24, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

I support the latest version as well, it is concise and accurate. AdoramusTeChristeAdoramusTeChriste 02:34, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

See my comments below. Dominick 12:23, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

As I have already stated, I - unlike Dominick and a multitude of others who are unaware of the discussion here - have no objection to devoting this article to traditionalist Catholics in either a broad or a narrow sense. If the broad sense is accepted, the proposed structure is probably sufficient. But the narrow sense, as expounded in Used2BAnonymous's long Beliefs section, involves criticisms of the present-day official presentation of Catholic teaching. Space should be given to the response of what the Baltimore Catechism called the Teaching Church to the criticisms. Since, in the proposal of Used2BAnonymous, the Beliefs section is part of the definition, the response must be kept separate from the Beliefs section. It is also only fair that the response too be presented with no admixture of traditionalist counter-comment. Any counter-comment of traditionalists could be given a separate section, but of course there would be no counter-counter-comment section against them.

So, if the Used2BAnonymous definition is adopted, I think it important to add to the structure two more sections:

• Criticisms of the beliefs of traditionalist Catholics
• Responses of traditionalists to these criticisms

Lima 12:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I was assuming that criticisms and responses of traditionalist Catholics could be placed under the Relations with other Catholic groups header. Is there a reason to seperate criticisms/responses from the relations section? // Pathoschild 12:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Comments not related to the overall structure have been moved to the SbS editing off-topic header. // Pathoschild 14:30, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I propose we agree on the overall structure —not necessarily the definition of traditionalist Catholicism— and move on to the first content section. I suggest that we accept the last proposed structure (see my comment yesterday at 20:44), which was agreed to by the active contributor Used2BAnonymous, as well as by commentators Pathoschild (me >_>) and AdoramusTeChriste. The opposition from active editors Lima and Dominick in this case strikes me as nonproductive, since they criticise it because they believe that it doesn't fit Used2BAnonymous' definition, whereas Used2BAnonymous himself supports this structure. This isn't the place to discuss the definition itself, which will be progressively examined in the content sections. If we later decide that there is too much information to fit in any one header, it can be split then. Thus, I propose we accept the current structure as last proposed and move on to the summary. In that section, we can argue the basic definition that will be used in the article. // Pathoschild 14:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Let me ask then there are no subsections under this heading on other groups? I can see where there is a blurb about it, however, some groups want nothing to do with any other group or Rome, some groups have a "unrequited" unity with Rome, and others have no issues with Rome, except the issues in dealing with local Ordinaries (Local Bishops). If we can cover this fact without introducing attacks from one of these three perspectives, we are golden. Dominick 14:55, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

The subdivision of that header depends heavily on the result of a controversy (see the heading Broad or specific definition?, among others), which is the primary dispute concerning the article. I think we should ignore possible subheaders for now and work our way through the rest of the article up to it. When we begin discussing that particular section, we can see what information we'll be adding and add appropriate subheaders then. //Pathoschild 18:02, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Active contributor Used2BAnonymous, active commentator Pathoschild, and commentator AdoramusTeChriste have voiced their support for the latest proposal. Active contributors Lima and Dominick had some concerns but have not directly responded to proposed changes; however, Dominick has suggested in another discussion that we move on. If there is no opposition or if these two contributors express their support within the next 24 hours, this overall structure (with possible subheader modifications in the individual sections) will be assumed to have consensus and the Section-by-section editing can move on to the first section. // Pathoschild 14:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Though I am not party to this present fracas, I hope my opinion counts and that I might be considered an "active contributor" due to my history of contribution to this article. I approve the outline. In fact, I approve the entire proposed essay written by Used2BeAnonymous and am assuming Lima and Dominick could write their objections in the relations area of the entry. 70.236.18.189 16:03, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Though I am not party to this present fracas, I hope my opinion counts and that I might be considered an "active contributor" due to my history of contribution to this article. I approve the outline. In fact, I approve the entire proposed essay written by Used2BeAnonymous and am assuming Lima and Dominick could write their objections in the relations area of the entry. 70.236.18.189 16:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Everyone's opinions count and are taken into consideration, but —unless you have an account or another IP address with contributions beyond that single comment— it'd be difficult to justify calling you an 'active contributor'. // Pathoschild 16:11, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

It seems that we were making entries at the same time. I saw that I was not signed in so attempted to add "ADDING: My wife did something to our computer settings and I am seemingly unable to log in. I am Malachias111" to my entry. wikipedia.org is added to the list of approved sites in IE settings, so she's done something to some security program she has running. I will get her to fix things. She is the guru around here. 70.236.18.189 16:20, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

I think there was somewhere an invitation to me to indicate within 24 hours whether I had any objection to pushing ahead with work on this article. Of course I have no objection. The article is not "mine". I regret only that I will not have time to contribute to the extent that others can - on one side Dominick, and on the other the many "concerned traditional Catholics who showed up to edit it, just like other human beings get to do".

Lima 18:11, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

A glitch or oversight in the Wikipedia prevents it from detecting the end of a section whose headers are styled, although it can detect it's start. I moved the discussion back to the bottom of the page to fix this.

With express support from all contributors except one (who has yet to explicitly comment), this structure will be assumed consensus-approved unless there's overruling opposition within the next five hours. // Pathoschild 19:10, 13 October 2005 (UTC)