Talk:Trade and use of saffron

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Featured article star Trade and use of saffron is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Featured topic star Trade and use of saffron is part of the "Saffron" series (project page), a featured topic identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on September 29, 2007.
Featured article star Trade and use of saffron is a selected article on the Food Portal, which means that it has been identified as a high quality article by Food Portal standards.
Peer review This page has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated FA-Class on the assessment scale (comments).
This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Contents

[edit] Trade v. Usage

What should be discussed first: "trade" or "usage"? The title puts "trade" first. The introduction and sections put "usage" first. I think the "trade" section should be placed first because, currently, that section is more general and includes an excellent overview of the topic, such as description of the flowers and harvest. The "usage" sections sometimes get bogged down with technical (foreign cuisine, medicine, chemistry) terms for which some context would be useful. What do others think? --maclean25 03:53, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree — that's a great idea. I'll switch the order now. Saravask 04:45, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saffron in staining tissue for microscope slides

Very nice article. About forty years ago I worked in a hospital pathology lab for a summer and we used to use saffron in combination with other substances ("HPS stain") to stain most of our routine slides. I wonder if someone more familiar with up to date staining might want to add something about this use...I don't remember what the Saffron's specific role in the stain was.FurnaldHall 09:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You mean the hematoxylin-phloxine-saffron (HPS) stain. Thanks for pointing this out. Saravask 05:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headline text

[edit] Saffron cures the plague?

The line "Medicinally, saffron was used in ancient times to cure a wide range of ailments, including stomach upsets, bubonic plague, and smallpox" implied to me that saffron acutally cured the plague, while I am fairly certain that it did not... would the phrasing "saffron was used in ancient times as a percieved cure for a wide range of aliments" or something similar work better?

[edit] Saffron milk

I came here looking for saffron milk, instead I find an article which seriously needs to look up European usage of Saffron throughout the times. I suggest someone with a little more time available than myself, and sincerely hope the knowledge of the history of saffron usage will improve. SWA 11:25, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] LD50

I changed the LD50 bit to mention median lethal dose instead of semilethal dose as semilethal dose is a potentially confusing name. Also, the whole sentence is a bit confusing. There isn't really such a thing as a universal LD50 as it depends on the test animal. I appreciate the more recent reference says a similar thing but someone should check out the older reference which is the real source for the data and find out precisely where the value given is from. Potentially it's an estimated LD50 in humans or something Nil Einne 00:00, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MDMA

From Errors in the summary of Today's featured article on the Main Page

Safrole, a colorless or slightly yellow oil, extracted from the root-bark or the fruit of sassafras plants is the primary precursor for all manufacture of MDMA.

not saffron —Preceding unsigned comment added by Syamadas (talk • contribs) 03:08, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I found many references to getting safrole from sassafras, but according to [1], "A few natural flavors, such as nutmeg and safrole, the oil from saffron, may be toxic." (Use "Search in this book" to confirm the quote.) If so then both "safrole" and "saffron" would be correct. Art LaPella 04:10, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems unlikely to me anyone would bother get safrole from saffron even if it's possible. Considering low grade saffron costs $500 a pound wholesale and "Ocotea cymbarum is an essential oil... that typically contains between 80 and 94 percent safrole," "a 500-milliliter bottle of Ocotea cymbarum sells for $20 to more than $100". I suspect it's far more likely safrole is derived from some part of the saffron crocus plant if at all (neither safrole or MDMA meention saffron or the saffron crocus plant as a source BTW). Nil Einne 04:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Do you think that cost of ingredients is what would determine the manufacturing process? I'm not sure. Both safrole and saffron are illegal in many places, so researching manufacturing techniques would attract the police, so a criminal might prefer to use whatever method he already knows. The street value of MDMA dwarfs all the figures in the previous post. Safrole speaks of "the main natural sources for safrole", not the only source. Art LaPella 05:25, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Moved discussion to Talk:Trade and usage of saffron Nil Einne 11:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the cost would definitely be a factor. Consider the cost is $500/pound, assuming you're able to obtain 0.5% safrole from one pound of saffron. This would be about $100k for ~450 mililitres of the safrole. And 0.5% seems a fairly high yield given that according to [2] saffron contains 0.5-1% essential oil the principle component which isn't safrole (admitedly it doesn't say by weight or by volume but I suspect it won't make that great a difference). [3] So I suspect the safrole yield will be significantly lower maybe 0.1% or less. While this may not seem much compared to the street value, it is still a lot, enough that I would strongly suspect most producers may look at another source. And as I've also stated, I simply don't see any reason why you would bother to obtain the oil from the stigmas. Even assuming it's most concentrated there, it seems to me given their tiny size it would still make more sense to use a different source within the saffron crocus plant. Also, there is still no reference to specifically support the claim there is demand for saffron for MDMA production (which is what the statement says). We have some references which suggest you may be able to obtain safrole from saffron but none which suggests it's in demand for the purpose/MDMA production. If it were in demand, I would presume many sources would mention this, and as you said about safrole, there may even be calls for closer monitoring of saffron etc. Unless of course people haven't noticed but then it becomes a case of OR. Note specifically the original reference [4] is somewhat unclear whether it's talking about obtaining the oil from saffron or from the saffron plant and also it just seems to mention potential sources, doesn't seem to indicate these sources are in use. Nil Einne 11:51, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
What surprised me was that the featured article itself, "Trade and usage of saffron", doesn't contain the reference to it being a precursor in synthesizing MDMA. I'm curious how this got into the featured summary on the front page if it wasn't in the article? - Mark Dixon 07:04, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
It did, it was removed by the user who made the error report [5]. As this hasn't been challenged it should be removed pending clarification IMHO Nil Einne 11:48, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is where the MDMA claim was added (by Miserlou). He/she might have some additional information about it. Saravask 16:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I was confused about saffron/saffrole. I found a source saying saffron, but I think it's wrong too. Miserlou 19:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
No problem. Saravask 20:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Minor errors

I came here because I saw the article on the main page. Straight off, I noticed that the term "threads" isn't defined anywhere (I still don't know what it is in the context of the subject; perhaps I must go to the saffron article to find out). Also, the picture of the saffron crocus flower appears redundantly twice. I'll remove one of the extra pictures, but would someone please explain "threads"? =Axlq 17:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bolding

Both Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Article_titles and Wikipedia:Lead section#Bold title clearly state that article names such as this do not appear in boldface in the main text.

If the topic of an article has no name, and the title is simply descriptive—such as Electrical characteristics of a dynamic loudspeaker—the title does not need to appear verbatim in the main text; if it does, it is not in boldface:

A dynamic loudspeaker driver’s chief electrical characteristics can be shown as a curve, representing the …

I don't mean to be a nuisance but should we not strive to conform to the MoS? Jɪmp 23:46, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Much to my dismay (I'm inexplicably a big fan of bolding in the lead), I have to agree with Jimp on this one. Were the article title repeated without any links ("The trade and use of saffron...), bolding would be OK in my humble opinion, but right now ("The trade and use of saffron) it's just weird. It would also be unbelievably lame to revert war because of this, so I suggest we leave the article alone while there's still any discussion to be done. Fvasconcellos (t·c) 00:09, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Someone has done a bit of a rewrite to fix the whole issue up. I like it as it is now. Any objections? -- Anonymous DissidentTalk 00:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The issue vanishes in a puff of prose. I much prefer the new lead. Thank you Saravask. It is "less boring and generic"—better than any "compromise". Jɪmp 00:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
"Vanishes in a puff of prose"... can I use that? :) It has indeed improved. A shame it's improved after being on the Main Page :P Fvasconcellos (t·c) 00:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Better late than never. "Vanishes in a puff of prose" ... go ahead. Jɪmp 00:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What sort of football field?

In "Modern trade" we have the statement, "A pound of dry saffron (0.45 kg) requires the harvesting of some 50,000 flowers, the equivalent of a football field's area of cultivation." What sort of football? American football, soccer? Or even less likely Rugby Union, Rugby League, Gaelic Football etc etc? Possibly it could also beargued that the fields are close enough in size for it not to matter too much. Checking out the ISBn, it seems to be a UK publication, so I guess soccer is the most likely. David Underdown 07:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Saravask 05:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Culinary Uses

I have always thought of saffron as a spice from Spanish cuisine, but it's not even listed as one of the places that commonly uses Saffron. This strikes me as wrong. Saritamackita (talk) 01:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)