Talk:Trabzon

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[edit] Comment

The recapture of Constantinople was in 1261, it fell in 1453. Is that BRIEF???

I removed the following paragraph from the main article. As it stands, it makes little sense, & I could see no way to improve on it:

Trebizond was an important center in the early history of Christianity, and a number of churches and monasteries were built. They became the center of the power structure of the city for some time, and were in constant battle with Muslim Arabs from 705 onwards. This period lasted until 1098 when they failed to maintain their independence from the growing power of Justinian, and became a part of the re-building Byzantine Empire.

(I could set out a line-by-line critique of this paragraph, but I leave it for someone else to do the necessary research to fix it & return it.) --llywrch 02:38 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I don't know about the first part, but presumably instead of Justinian they meant Alexius I. Maybe the last line refers to the expansion after Alexius, or maybe after the Fourth Crusade? Adam Bishop 02:38, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why is the greek in the accusative? Τραπεζούντα should be in the nominative.

Fine point, but I think Τραπεζούντα is actually genitive. Presumably it's to show how the English name drives from the Greek stem Τραπεζούντ- instead of the nominative.

It's simpler than that: Τραπεζούντα is the Modern Greek form of Τραπεζοῦς, since 3rd declension nouns regularly go to 1st declension. Opoudjis 13:06, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring

To all involved in this edit war over the name: I haven't blocked anyone for a long time. Don't tempt me. I've protected the page because I am sick of seeing it appear on my watchlist; coincidentally I also happen to think the current version I've protected is the best solution, but if you want to change it for some reason, please discuss it here first. Adam Bishop 19:35, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi Adam,
I just wanted to say that usually on Wikipedia articles we state the former name in the 1st paragraph. (see Gdańsk example) Furthermore, Trabzon is home to a large Pontian Greek community, so I think it's very necessary to state the Greek name not in the history section but in the opening paragraph. --Khoikhoi 02:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Khoikhoi
What is your source for the existence of "a large Pontian Greek community" in Trabzon? I lived there for 8 years and my family is still there, but I have never met anyone designating himself as "Pontian Greek". I do not say i have good references for nonexistence (other than my experience) but i would like to hear yours. Even if we assume such a community exists, do they still refer to the city with the old name?
Hi. Here's one for starters - [1]. It says, "The largest group speaking Pontic Greek lives in 5-6 villages in Tonya, Trabzon and in nearly 50 villages at the valley Yukarı Solaklı that is south of Of." Furthermore, there are people like Özhan Öztürk (User:Macukali) and Ömer Asan that we can ask. Both of whom are experts on the Pontus region. I'm not sure if they refer to the city by the old name actually. We'll see what others have to say. --Khoikhoi 22:16, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
It's been a while, and I can't remember the exact source anymore, but I'm pretty sure it's true. The thing is, most Pontian Muslims don't claim a non-Turkish national identity. - Gilgamesh 08:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] he interwiki

Could someone please add [[he:טרבזון]]? Felagund 11:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pontic Greeks

I removed the parapgraph which stated that Trabzon still has asizable Pontic Greek population "As Muslims were not deported afterthe treaty of Lausanne". This just isn't true. There are no Pontic Greeks left in Trabzon. Also Pontic Greeks are not Muslim-- they are Orthodox Christian. I suspect that whoever wrote this paragraph must have been thinking about the Laz, who are Muslim, and who speak Lazca-- and who certainly should be mentioned in this article. There are people who believe that the Laz are related ethnically to the Pontic Greeks, but my understanding is that this has been disproven.

FYI, the Laz are a very sizable minority group along the Black Sea Coast, and their language is very widely spoken, though as a rule younger generations are bilingual. Ethnically they are not Turkic, but one has to understand that "Turk" in modern day Turkey is less about ethnicity than it is about national identity. You can be of Laz, Circassian, Greek or whatever ethnic background but still be Turkish. (One of my Turkish friends made the point that if ethnic purity were the criteria for being a Turk, very few Turks would be Turks-- this is what comes from living on the crossroads of civilization.) So yes, Gilgamesh, above, is right: the Laz do not claim a non-Turkish national identity. Cheers. 38.2.108.125 13:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


More: The Wikipedia entry for Pontic Greeks states the following: "Some writers estimate that there are 300,000 people of Pontic Greek-speaking descent (Ömer Asan 1996) in Turkey (in Trabzon, entirely Muslim and a majority (225,000 - 250,000) speaking Turkish today)." Every other source I have read is clear that all Pontic Greeks left Turkey, however, it is entirely possible that people of Pontic Greek *descent* still live in Turkey. Their ancestors, however, almost certainly converted to Islam, learned Turkish, and identify as Turkish nationals. Nobody identifying as Pontic Greek would have stayed, or would have been permitted to stay. 38.2.108.125 13:15, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names

People have been changing the names section, I think the way I have changed it is fair - it has the Turkish and Greek names at first, but is shorter than before because I moved the link to list of traditional Greek place names to the "see also" section. Thoughts? --Awiseman 06:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The greek name must be placed in the beginning, in the first line, as the turkish is on several greek articles (Chios, Kalymnos, Symi, etc). perhaps the link to the list of tranditional Greek place names fits better where u've moved it now. --Hectorian 08:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I made clear Trabzon as Turkish name of the city. Because the city not located in Greece Zaparojdik 18:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
What pains me is that this is one of the few cities that does not have its own article for Trebizond (Ancyra being the other that I see). Therefore, the earlier history of Trebizond needs a lot of beefing up, because a lot is missing. Monsieurdl 20:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent additions

I'd like to thank Macukali for his work on the article, but it seems a lot of this information is about Trabzon Province, and is not specific to Trabzon city. If there are no objections I think we should move some of the info to the relevant article. —Khoikhoi 16:12, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned up dubious content on the city's Armenian community.Hetoum I 18:55, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

The link 'A Traveler's Guide to Turkey's Black Sea Region' is not in English. I think it should be removed as it does not belong in the English speaking wiki. Also, I am not even sure if it is a proper travel guide page. Just appears to be a whole lot of advertising links etc. PyrE 04:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

No. I will correct that, the url was typed in wrong. Fixed. PyrE 04:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)