Talk:Trần Hưng Đạo

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[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Summer 2007 Assessment Drive

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 21:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures in the article

http://images.google.no/imgres?imgurl=http://www.viettouch.com/hist/tranhungdao/tranhdao.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.viettouch.com/hist/tranhungdao/&h=320&w=480&sz=15&hl=no&start=1&tbnid=vU03mEDt5IotsM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtran%2Bhung%2Bdao%26ndsp%3D20%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dno%26sa%3DN

I suggest we use this picture. We see his face much clearer, though it is just a paining and he may not have looked just like that, it is better than some distant statue we don't see much of. I don't know how to get copyrights, so if someone could help, it would be great. Also, the above link is not the only place on the net that has that picture. I've seen it several other places.

According to this link, http://www.cinet.gov.vn/vanhoa/vanhoc/vh-vietnam/tacpham/vh-co/thothien/tieusu.htm Le Phu Tran was not in command of the Dai Viet army when they repelled the mongols the first time, but Tran Thai Tong was. Tridungvo 05:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I made revert cause Tran Hung Dao was Dai Viet army's commander-in-chief defeating two Mongol invasions led by Toghan in 1285 and 1287. These are the second and third invasions. The first invasion was led by Uriyangqadai (Chinese: 兀良合台) in 1258. Vietnamese general who played the key role in defeating the first Mongol invasion was not Tran Hung Dao but Le Phu Tran (Lê Phụ Trần). --Avia 08:57, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Father of Naval Warfare?

General Tran Hung Dao is now revered as the Father of Naval Warfare and some even worship him as a deity. That would be news indeed to the Greeks (who were doing things with ships before VN was even a state). I'm also surprised that he's worshipped as a god. The Vietnamese do rever him, and I've seen a shrine at Hanoi, but they tend to reserve the actual worship to Buddha (or Christ.)

The article needs a bit of clean-up. The good general was a mean ass MoFo; he kicked the Mongols' asses twice. The man deserves a better article than this. (I must admit I'm biased: I'm married to a Trần.) --Tphcm 11:12, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

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Legend is no history. Let's take him as a legenday hero, giving his name to public places and main battles. He's at a symbolic level as Barbarossa.

Takima 02:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Legacy

I've started a cleanup of the article. The first thing that needed to be done is split the article into clear pieces. I've also reduced the hyperbole a bit. It's still a little bit: (Bub bum bum bum) "Tran! aaaah! He'll save everyone of us!" (Insert Brian May lick).

His legacy is something that needs to be worked on. There are THD statues, THD streets, THD pagodas and even a TDH park in VN. (The South Vietnamese even used his picture as a watermark on their notes... believe it or not.) --Tphcm 06:49, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Same "Horde"

"The same hordes that had brought fear to inhabitants of Eastern Europe and the Middle East"

I'm going to remove that statement because the "Mongols" who wreaked havoc in Europe and the Middle East were not the same "Mongols" that attacked Vietnam. During the European campaigns, the majority of the Mongol troops were conscripted from captured Turkic/Mongolic territory. The Mongols who sacked the Middle East mostly remained battling in the Il-Khanid area. Much of the battles fought after these campaigns were conducted by a mainly Chinese army. Hence, these were not the same Mongol hordes.

It was already widely accepted and among the biggest mistakes(and among the few times that the Mongols were ever clearly defeated) that Kubilai made by planning a sea attack without proper planning. The first was already with Japan. The second was with Vietnam. Guess he couldnt figure it out the first time around that the Mongols could not be a major sea power without proper consideration and planning. It should also be noted that Mongols were known to not fair pretty well in areas out of their element (in the rocky terrains during the battles with the Mamelukes, and in the dense jungles and river front of Vietnam).

By the time Kubilai decided to invade Vietnam, the troops who were sent were Chinese led by Mongol officers. I read exaggerated numbers of hundreds of thousand troops being sent, but more than likely the number of "Mongol" soldiers in the campaign were vastly smaller than any other of their other campaigns. It also appears that a fourth and actual "serious" invasion was planned after the first 3 failed, but King Trần Nhân Tông submitted as a Yuan vassal, thus preventing another devastating conflict. Which should also be noted that it spanned only about a decade - i'll fix that too.

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In popular Vietnamese, "Mongol" is spelled for "Chinese", as "Hun" was for "German" in popular French.

Takima 02:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I object to removing sourced material. The sourced material should stay and should not be removed by POV's. The mongol empire was at their peak when they attempted to invade Vietnam. Tran Hung Dao and his military feats are considered the greatest in world history. This is no secret.75.3.242.23 (talk) 11:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I will add a section:
It must be noted that Tran Hung Dao achieved his military success with an army largely constituted of poorly equipped volunteers and peasant     
conscripts against the mighty hordes of the Mongols who were at the apex of their power after conquering most of Asia. His strategic brilliance 
had contributed much to this success.
It came from these sources, more to come also.

1 Bruce Lockhart & William Duiker, Historical Dictionary of Vietnam (3rd ed) (Lanham, Md: Scarecrow Press 2006), p375.

2 Nguyen Khac Vien, Vietnam: A Long History (Hanoi : The Gioi Publishers 1999), p39.

3 Truong Buu Lam, Patterns of Chinese Response to Foreign Intervention, 1858-1900 (New Haven: Southeast Asia Studies, Yale University 1967), p51. 76.232.54.41 (talk) 11:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Times Magazine listed Tran Hung Dao as one of the top ten generals of all time

I believe it was in a 1984 issue. Can someone help me find the source?76.232.54.41 (talk) 12:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV

This article is full of hyperbolic adulation without much basis in fact. I am disputing the factual accuracy of some of the "factoids" mentioned in this article and will remove them if whoever inserted them could not find supporting evidence. DHN 02:50, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] More legacy

There are definitely temples that worship him, but more like a Saint than a god.