Talk:Toyota Prius/Archive 1

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== Headline textyou have to be 16 maddie said!{| class="wikitable" |- ! header 1 ! header 2 ! header 3 |- | row 1, cell 1 | row 1, cell 2 | row 1, cell 3 |- | row 2, cell 1 | row 2, cell 2 | row 2, cell 3 |} ==

Contents 1 2003 vs 2004 data 2 Ford Escape Hybrid 3 writing style? 4 size class vs weight class 5 other Toyota hybrids 6 Km/h -> km/g 7 pictures of 2004 Toyota Prius 8 Sebastopol Dealership 9 EV button 10 Poor efficiency and CO2 emissions of an ICE engine 11 External links 12 Original Prius 13 Driving tips 14 Patent infringement issues 14.1 Patent infringement alleged by Solomon Industries 14.2 More on Antonov hybrid technology patent infringement 15 2006 model 16 Other hybrid-engine vehicles 17 Cleanup 18 Remove driving tricks and list of celebrities 19 Proposed removal of sales section 20 Rumors? 21 Better fuel efficiency in the city 22 Catalytic converter and engine shutdown (in How it works) 23 Trivia removed 24 Enthusiast sites 25 Two motors 26 plug-in 27 Used as Source by Jeremy Clarkson 28 Smart Key System 29 Addition of discussion of low-battery symptoms?

2003 vs 2004 data

It is nice to add a data block to the page. However, the data in the block badly need some review. Since the 2004 Prius is a resigned car, it does not make sense to mix its stats with the 1997-2003 models. The data block contains "hybrid" info. For example, the body style listed is good only for old models (the 2004 model only comes in one 5 door hatchback trim). The engine type listed is only good for the new model (the old model used THS Toyota Hybrid System, not HSD.) The 500 Volt electric system is also good for the 2004 model only. One set of dimension cannot be correct for two different cars either. It may be necessary to list the 2004 stats separately.

hey yall maddie loves abby powell! from maddie b.

Ford Escape Hybrid

Ford Motor Company is planning a hybrid engine version of the Ford Escape. Ford signed a licensed agreement in March 2004 to use 20 hybrid technology patents from Toyota.

I think this may be misleading: the Escape (and future Ford hybrids) are not based in any way on the Prius, and do not borrow any components. Ford did indeed liscense some Toyota petents, but only after designing it's own proprietary system (there were near-production Escape hybrids in final testing LONG before March 2004!).

Hybrid systems are so fundamentally similar and there's so much convergent design they calculated it would be cheaper to pay Toyota a small royalty than risk being sued (and suffering the resulting PR damange, regardless of whether the lawsuit had merrit or not). This is the line from both Ford and Toyota. -- stewacide 18:45, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

• This was so misleading that I changed it (anonymously as 203.12.172.254 -- whoops). I think Tempshill may have inadvertenly over-simplified this section, so that it began reading differently. I have fixed it and the following entry on the Nissan too. If you need a source, try [1]. As it says: "The Ford agreement is very different from the one with Nissan". 'Nuff said I think. Mattisgoo 06:28, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

writing style?

My grade school teacher taught me to write short and clean sentences. The sentence below is a mile long. I'd suggest someone rewrite it into smaller chunks.

With a new drag coefficient of 0.26 and featuring the third generation hybrid powertrain technology called Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD) replacing the old Toyota Hybrid System (THS) technology, the new 2004 Prius is a compact car with more room than the previous subcompact (4 doors plus a rear hatch, a smaller but higher voltage NiMH battery), is more powerful (2 seconds faster in 0 to 96 km/h acceleration) and is 15% more fuel efficient than the previous generation Prius (59 mpg city, 51 mpg highway, according to the EPA) when driven properly[1] (http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-03-hybridmileage_x.htm), yet is still 90% cleaner than conventional gasoline-only automobiles.

Kowloonese 18:23, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Agreed - check it out now. Lots more material also and some sneaky POV others may want to edit out. Leonard G. 04:45, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

size class vs weight class

The sentence above said the 2004 Prius is a compact car with more room. That is an error. The Prius is classified by the EPA as a mid-size car according to its interior room despite the exterior of the car is about the same as a compact Corolla. Some other government agencies classify the 2004 Prius as a compact car by weight. Since the above sentence is talking about interior room in the same breath, it should mention its size-class instead of its weight-class. I made the change on Jun 15, 2004.

Kowloonese 18:23, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

other Toyota hybrids

Due to the success of both the engineering and sales of the Prius, Toyota is currently planning a hybrid V-6 engine for the Lexus GX, as well as a hybrid engine version of the Camry. Toyota plans to sell the Lexus in late 2004, promising equal performance of the 4.7 L V-8 currently shipping in the GX470, with the fuel economy of the Camry's 2.2 L 4-cylinder engine.

There is no base for this sentence. It is simply wrong. Based on all the news releases, Toyota will produce a Lexus RX400h and a hybrid Toyota Highlander for the 2005 model year later this fall. Rumor has it that their Sienna minivan will be next in line but not in 2005. There is no word about the GX or Camry going hybrid soon even though Toyota announced that their entire product line will go hybrid eventually few years from now. Since the Camry and the Prius are in the same price range. It would only make sense for Toyota to do other hybrids before cannibalizing their own sedan class. What about a hybrid fullsize truck and a hybrid super sportcar before doing a hybrid Camry?

I made the change on Jun 15, 2004. Kowloonese 23:25, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Km/h -> km/g

The recent addition of km/h after the mpg info is problematic. km/h and mpg are two different kinds of unit, they are not compatible. I changed it to km/g to make them both fuel consumption unit. Yet it is no good either, km is metric and gallon is not. On the Toyota Prius, the fuel consumption is either presented as mpg (mile per gallon) or as liter per kilometer. The current value & unit need to be corrected.

Kilometers per litre is not the correct way of expressing fuel economy. The standard measurement for expressing fuel economy in metric terms is L/100km, I have made appropriate changes. 70.51.148.114 15:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

pictures of 2004 Toyota Prius

Front view of 2004 Toyota Prius	Driver side front quarter view of 2004 Toyota Prius	Driver side view of 2004 Toyota Prius
Driver side rear quarter view of 2004 Toyota Prius	Rear view of 2004 Toyota Prius	Passenger side rear quarter view of 2004 Toyota Prius
Passenger side view of 2004 Toyota Prius	Passenger side front quarter view of 2004 Toyota Prius	Alloy wheel (with plastic beauty rim) of the US version of 2004 Toyota Prius
Optional high Intensity Discharge headlight on 2004 Toyota Prius

Sebastopol Dealership

As of March 2004, the waiting list in Sebastopol, California was over 100 people long.

Having grown up in Sebastopol, and still living down the road, I can tell you for a fact that there is no Toyota dealership there. Did you mean to say something along the lines of "As of March 2004, the nearest Toyota Dealership (Freeman Toyota) had a waiting list that included over 100 citizens of Sebastopol, California"?

just wanted to clarify ;) --Hes Nikke 02:43, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I was referring to Freeman Toyota, although I do not know of the composition of the waiting list. Should it be changed to Santa Rosa, California or Sonoma County, California? I am only mildly familiar with the area. [[User:PlatinumX|PlatinumX]] 21:31, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)

EV button

The Japanese and European version of this vehicle assume an intelligent driver and provide a button that maintains stealth mode under most low load conditions. The US model does not provide this button and so there may be a subtle inference here.

This two statements may violate NPOV policy. The EV button will push the battery through deep discharge cycles that will significantly shorten the battery life. Since the battery carries a warranty of 150K mile (10 years) in California and several other states or 100K mile (8 years) in the rest of the continent. It is not hard to assume that the removal of the EV button in the US model is to protect the company's risk in supporting the batteries for long warranty period. I really doubt the decision infers the intelligent level of the drivers. Kowloonese 23:32, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sure does! I was wondering if anyone was reading the article. That did stay in for quite a while. All fixed up now, plus a neat driving trick to get ICE shutdown. (Is this in the manual?) There are (likely warranty violating) wiring additions to enable stealth mode, some of which are well hidden - replacing a rarely used function in the cruise control, others are more bold, simply putting a button where it is found on the non-US models. Leonard G. 05:34, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Many people have speculated about why Toyota does not offer the EV button in the US, but since the display shows only the mid-range of the battery's charge, and EV mode gets overriden automatically at the low end of that range, it does not get close to deep discharge. Nevertheless, it is possible extensive use of the button could impact battery life slightly. Meanwhile, Toyota's marketing campaign, like that of all hybrid makers, emphasizes "you don't have to plug it in," since they perceive significant public confusion about whether hybrids are electric vehicles, so having a button marked "EV" in the car wouldn't help them deliver their message.--Felixkramer 18:27, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There is also speculation that because EV mode doesn't always engage due to low battery condition, high vehicle speed, high external temperatures, high average (suburban) road speeds in the US, etc. that it's unnecessary in the USA, and that poor understanding of the EV option could be a PR problem. NuShrike 04:33 16 Sept 2005 (UTC)

I heard that they did not include this button due to government red tape about having an EV button makes the car "electric only" and would have to be registered as such. Also, it does not affect the battery because the computer will automatically cancel EV mode if the battery gets too low or you go too fast. I read a British review of the Prius (I forget where) and the reviewer said he could not even get around the block when he had the car in EV mode, because the computer automatically turns EV mode off. The button is only good if you have to move a short distance in a parking lot of move your car into/out of your driveway. --michael180 14:26, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

The EV button has no "real" practical use unless the battery reserve is big enough for the Prius to operate as a true Electric car. According to the project of the Prius+ prototype, you will need to shell out US$10000 to beef up the Prius as a grid pluggable electric car. Kowloonese 00:05, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Sure it has real practical uses, such as moving the car arround a parking lot, or demonstrating the ev-mode to friends. If you live at the top of a hill you could use it to discharge the battery on the way home to make room for more regen charge on the way back down the hill. As far as the EDrive conversion pack price of ~$10K-14K, most of which does towards the most expensive Li-ion batteries money can buy, it could be done for about $3K or less with traditional PbA batteries, or Toyota could produce the car with larger batteries and plug-in abilities for an additional $3K from the factory. I concure that it was most likely left off of US models because of the extra trouble it would have taken to get it emissions tested, why they couldn't have simply ignored the button I don't know. --D0li0 10:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

All the button does in Europe is shut the motor off temp if you just want to go a few hundred feet. The American Priuses have build in support for the button. All you need to do is buy any button and hook it up in to the place for it. You can also by the button from Europe dealers and install it your self. [2] --michael180 16:54, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Umm, ok, did my statements imply something to the contrary? I guess they did sorta take a tangent towards Plug-in_hybrid_electric_vehicles (Gridables, (Prius+, CalCars, CalCars-news, EDriveSystems), (Toyota PHEV Prius, [3], [4])). But I did come back arround with my understanding of the lack of the button (just the button) in the US, since none of the Hybrids have plug-ins yet, sorry for the confusion. --D0li0 07:08, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Poor efficiency and CO2 emissions of an ICE engine

I've deleted this phrase in relation to the question of being able to recharge the battery from the mains. While some sources of mains electricity are cleaner, I don't think there's any evidence that, from source to use, typical mains electricity would be better. There are losses in generation, transmission and charging and discharging the battery. --Cavrdg 08:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I couldn't find the original text about efficiency and CO2 emissions, but I replaced a reference to the issue when I added info about PRIUS+ conversins. You can find documentation of this issue at CalCars Vehicles Page Section 4

External links

I have cleaned up the list of external links, removing some extraneous links (some not specifically about the Prius or all that informative). The other sites and news articles could be cleaned up further to narrow the external links list to only those most informative and pertinent sites. --Aude 01:15, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I have removed external links to discussion forums as they are a violation of WP:EL. -- MakeChooChooGoNow 17:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Original Prius

I've added an extension to the Prius information table to document the distinct existance of the Japanese-only Prius '0th' Generation such as it used THS instead of THSII powertrain in the 'Classic'. Information changes mostly sourced from http://www.toyoland.com/prius-specs.html and some from http://john1701a.com. NuShrike 04:41 16 Sept 2005 (UTC)

Driving tips

What is the relevance, if any, of the driving tips near the end of the article? That, to me, is owners club or forum material and not encyclopedic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.250.152.182 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 21 September 2005 (UTC).

• People come here to get information on the Prius. Of those people, I'd say quite a lot are actually owners of the said car. I doubt these "performance tricks" are detailed in the owner's manual, so they could be quite helpful for Prius drivers and perhaps other hybrid car drivers also. --82.18.242.139 12:52, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Patent infringement issues

Moved this content from the article...

As of autumn 2005, the Antonov Automotive Technology BV Plc company has sued Toyota Corp. over alleged patent infringement relating to key components in the Prius' drivetrain and the hybrid luxury SUV Lexus RX400h. The case has been pending in secret since April 2005, but settlement negotiations did not bring a mutually acceptable result. Antonov eventually took legal recourse in the german court system, where decisions are usually made relatively swift. The patent holder seeks to impose a levy on each Prius vehicle sold, which could make the hybrid car economically incompetitive. Toyota fought back by seeking to officially invalidate Antonov's relevant patents. The court motion in Winword document format can be read here.

Would this happen to be the same Suit[5]? Sorry, I don't read .doc files. If it is, it was Discussed here and dismissed for the most part. Seems like nonsense to me, more like Hybrid Hatemongering similar to Fords comments about "Toyota hogging all the Hybrid Parts". --D0li0 11:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Patent infringement alleged by Solomon Industries

A claim was filed on January 11,2006, by "Solomon Industries, Inc." with the United States International Trade Comission alleging that Toyota infringed on SI's patent in the Prius and the Toyota Highlander. While this commision cannot actually assess and award damages, it can block the import of any product that it determines violates a U.S. patent. SI previously filed a lawsuit against Toyota on September 12, 2005 claiming patent infringement.[6]

And, no I don't work for or have any associations with SI, and yes, I do own a Prius. --NightMonkey 09:18, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

More on Antonov hybrid technology patent infringement

An infringement action has been filed against Toyota by Antonov Automotive Technology BV (a wholly owned subsidiary of Antonov plc), the automotive technology company, at the Patent Court in Düsseldorf alleging infringement of its patents by the driveline of the Toyota Prius and Lexus RX400h. The case will receive its first hearing on the 22nd September 2005. The action was originally filed on the 12th April 2005, but the first hearing date was postponed to allow more time for negotiations to seek a satisfactory settlement. As the offer received is not satisfactory, no settlement has been reached and Antonov will proceed with the case. Through the case Antonov aims to establish the infringement and seek fair payment for the use of Antonov’s intellectual property in all relevant vehicles sold to date and for those that will be sold through to the expiry of the patents. [7] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.251.7.131 (talk • contribs) 03:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC).

2006 model

New features pictures of 2006 Prius

There are many changes in the 2006 model. New features include:

• The smart airbags that deploy at variable speed depending on the force of impact.
• Leather seat option now available.
• A video camera overlooking the rear bumper
• tire pressure monitoring
• MP3 compatible audio system, input jack for portable music players
• etc.

The exterior is also slightly modified to give teletale signs of the new model.

Visible clues of the 2006 model includes:

• the grill bar just below the hood is chrome (used to be body color)
• the amber color section of the headlight is from top to bottom (used to be upper half only)
• the upper section of the brake lights appears chrome when not lit. (used to be black)
• Between the front wheels and the doors, a new "Hybrid SD" Logo is added on each side. The logo is a variation of the "HSD" logo on the back except the word Hybrid is spelled out.
• The alloy wheels look different too (to be confirmed because wheels were different in different markets for 2004/5 also.)

Kowloonese 19:47, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I believe those wheels are the same, and are simply missing the "Hub Caps" we have on the 2004 and 2005 models. The "Hub Caps" are meerly a small 2 inch plastic ring which causes the deep notch between the spokes and hub to appear more flush than in those photos. A benefit of the hub cap is the ability to use them to greatly modify the look of the wheels like this http://vassfamily.net/ToyotaPrius/rimscaps/RimsCaps.html . --D0li0 11:08, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Other hybrid-engine vehicles

The subsection on "Other hybrid-engine vehicles" is off-topic, and covered elsewhere in the Hybrid vehicle article. If no objections or consensus agrees with me, it will be deleted. --Aude 02:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree and have merged usefull information from that section into Hybrid vehicle#History. The first three points regarding Honda, ie:also cannot be driven without the gasoline engine are entirely worthless and seem to have come from someone with a grudge against the IMA Assist Hybrids. I'de just like to take this oppertunity to point out to people with this mentality that they should realize that while the Prius may have an EV-only Stealth Mode it is not IMHO an more (nor less) of a single fuel hybrid than any of the others. Both of these designes utilize regenerative braking, assist, and idle-stop. Without the ability to grid-recharge any EV-only abilities are nearly worthless. So, Untill that day let's not get our panties in a bunch over which non-mild hybrid is better. I'll gladly trade in both my 2000 Insight and 2005 Prius for which ever vehicle becomes the first Stock Plug-in hybrid electric vehicle! -Kmf164, I'll let you have the Deletion honors, and allow some more time for others to comment. --D0li0 10:51, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Cleanup

Does anyone see a reason that this article still needs "cleaned up"? I don't. I'm gonna remove the cleanup tag unless someone sees a reason why it should remain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TheDoober (talk • contribs)

Remove driving tricks and list of celebrities

Actually, I think this article does need cleanup. I propose taking out the "driving tricks" and move to a separate sub-article. In my opinion, this section takes away from the encyclopedic quality of the article. Also, let's take out of "Notable facts", the list of celebrities that drive a Prius. If no one objects, I'm going to comeback in a couple days and make these changes. --Aude 17:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I just moved the "driving tricks" to Wikibooks. There is also a FAQ on Wikibooks that's been started. I think wikibooks is a good place to provide more expansive information about the Prius for current and prospective owners. I'll keep working on cleaning up the notable facts, celebrities, and sales info, moving what's necessary to wikibooks. -Aude (talk | contribs) 02:22, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed removal of sales section

I also propose taking out the "Sales" section. The point that there was strong demand, long waiting lists, etc., can be made elsewhere in the article. But these particular bullet points don't seem that useful and outdated. There is little or no waiting time now, for ordering a Prius. --Aude 17:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Actual sales data, as opposed to anecdotes of waiting times, can be useful. I have added some sourced figures regarding U.S. sales. Incidentally, with gas prices pushing $3.00/gal again in the U.S., the waiting lines are back. --Blainster 09:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Rumors?

I have long thought it odd that such an unasuming little car should be surrounded by such a vast body of fantastic rumors. I listed them in their own section and Kmf164 promptly pulled them. Is it innapropriate to round them up and thrust them into the harsh light of the Wiki?

I was going to defend it as being at least as useful as knowing that a minor actress on a minor show drives one for part of one episode, but I agree with Kmf164 that the celebrities should go.

Okay, here's what was deleted and why:

• For some reason this quiet, efficient, unassuming little car has been the subject of a continuous stream of bizarre rumors. These include:

"For some reason", what reason? And, instead of "this quiet, efficient, unassuming little car", how about simply "the Prius", and "bizarre rumors" - I'm not sure what you mean by bizarre and continuous. I don't like putting such putting forth such adjectives for the reader, but rather just present the facts (backup up with citations, sources).

• Toyota made and sold these strictly as a publicity move, not as an economically viable car, taking a loss on each sale in exchange for benefit to Toyota's image as a "green" company

We need some sources here. I have trouble with the word "strictly". Instead of listing this as a rumor, how about incorporating into the article, something about how the hybrid technology as part of Toyota's R&D and strategy.

• The cars are somehow unsafe to drive because they have dangerously strong electrical fields in them.

Where has this been a rumor? sources please. Instead, how about saying something in the article about the level of electrical charge, how it's channeled, in the car, and what steps Toyota has taken to ensure safety for occupants.

• The cars are somehow unsafe for emergency personnel after accidents due to their unusually large battery.

I've not heard this exactly as you word it "unusually large battery". Sources please. Though, the flow of electricity would be cut off anyway in an accident, but emergency personnel undergo special training for hybrids anyway to understand where the electrical (orange) wiring is, so they can avoid cutting it.

• The car will electrocute its occupants if it goes into deep water.

I've not heard this said anywhere. I don't think this is part of a "continuous stream of bizarre rumors". Though, if you can provide sources ...

• Buyers pay so much extra when they buy the car (as compared with a similar non-hybrid vehicle) that over the life of the car they will never save enough on gas to make up for the extra money they must pay up front.

I wouldn't necessarily call this a rumor, but it's a concern that some people have (in some cases, rightfully so). The mileage that a Prius gets is not near the 60 mpg (city) EPA estimate that's advertised. The mileage that a driver gets is highly dependent on driving conditions (traffic, length of commute, and many other factors). And how long people will keep the car also varies. Also, what about the price of gas, which varies greatly from place to place and over time? There are so many variables, that in *some* cases one might not save enough on gas to make up for the extra upfront cost with buying the car. I think we definitely need sources here.

• Electric cars are naturally slow and weak, and American drivers will find them frustrating to drive.

The Prius isn't an "electric" car. It's a hybrid. And singling out "American" drivers? Wikipedia also has a large non-American audience.

• The vehicle will actually create extra pollution because it has an oversize battery that will contaminate the enviroment after the car dies.

I've never heard this "rumor". Sources please.

• People who own Priuses are somehow less friendly or cooperative than drivers of other cars. (Perhaps a side effect of the dangerous magnetic fields in the car)

This sounds silly. I've never heard this and don't think this belongs in an encyclopedia.

• Toyota has been hoarding vital hybrid parts and technologies in the hope of hurting american manufacturers.

I've never heard this either. Where did you hear this rumor?

It takes only the most trivial research to disprove these rumours, and yet they keep coming. To some extent it may be that the car has become as much a symbol as it is an actual car.

How about doing some trivial research, provide just the facts, and back them up with sources? One of the key policies of Wikipedia is Verifiability. Providing sources and backing up facts, and not including heresay, would greatly improve the quality of this article. So, if we're going to add the "rumors", I think we need sources to back up these being rumors and some sources that dispel the rumors. Please also acquaint yourself with the Manual_of_Style and The Five Pillars of Wikipedia. With a better understanding of the policies and guidelines, you'll be better able to help improve the article. Right now it has too many lists and not enough facts, sources, etc. to make it a really great article. --Aude 03:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Better fuel efficiency in the city

I think this is true because the regenerative braking is more of a factor in city driving.

I'd also like to remove "The Prius gets better fuel efficiency in the city because the batteries get used more, whereas on the highway, the engine is used in order to recharge the batteries, and the wind resistance is higher." I'm not entirely sure what the EPA considers city driving, but this is contrary to my experiences, where my highway mileage is much better than my city mileage (which is still very good, but nowhere near 60 mpg in the city). --Aude 04:15, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Most Prius drivers get higher milage on city roads than on the highways. You may be an exception depending on your driving habits and conditions. I object to the removal of the sentence based on your experience only. People tend to travel on highway on long trip, but city driving are often for short trips. The Prius never gives good milage in the first 5 minutes because of the warmup wastes gas. Short trips hurt the milage, not city driving. That may explain your atypical experience. Frequent hard braking wastes gas too. People who anticipate red lights ahead of them often let the Prius coast without burning gas nor using the brake. Many people using the proper technique reported city mileage in the mid 60 mpg. However, highway milage will never reach the 60s due to non-stop engine usage and air resistence. Regardless of your driving habits, there is a difference in the potential. Not many people use the same driving style so not everyone can reach the potential of the car. Kowloonese 20:48, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Better city mileage is very much part of my experience -- I get something like 40 on the open road, and more like 55 in long city trips. (35 -45 on short city trips, depending on season), in my 2001 model. I believe that the difference in our experience can be chalked up to differences in driving style -- hybrid vehicle has a section on tactics for best fuel efficiency.

I think the problem is EPA's definition of "city". If you can drive at 45 mph in your "city", for a mile or two, then you can get 60 mpg. I've rented a Prius in other cities (e.g. Los Angeles), where I was able to achieve such driving and gas mileage. However, in Washington, D.C. where I drive most often, it's constant stop and go traffic (where anticipating red lights is impractical) and get around 40mpg. You're right about short trips, as a factor. Another factor is use of air conditioning or heating, which if minimized can greatly help mileage (which, with passengers I won't do). In EPA tests, they don't have AC/heating on. In the suburbs, where I can get stretches of 45-50 mph driving, I get mileage 50-60 mpg. And, on the highway, I easily get the EPA mpg of 51 or better. As for leaving the statement in the article, I'm fine with that if you can cite it on basis of real driving and not strictly EPA tests. Though, we might also need to define what EPA considers city driving (e.g. more suburban driving conditions, than stop-and-go city driving). -Aude (talk | contribs) 21:15, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what "city" meant by EPA, EPA did publish the two estimates and they were 51 highway and 60 city. You may argue the EPA city driving is nothing like your city driving. Likewise I also argue the EPA highway driving is nothing like anyone's highway driving. Anyway, propably only one in a thousand drivers can match these estimates in real life situations, hence it is adviced that buyers should use these estimates for comparison purpose only. i.e. if the city estimate is higher than highway estimate, it only means this car does better on city street under that particular test condition. You should not really expect 60 mpg unless your driving style matches the EPA testing conditions. I have read many posts on various Prius forums, my impression is that the majority of people get better mileage in city than on highway. Your experience is an exception. Regarding the sentence in the article, it is not 100% accurate to say the maximium use of the battery results in good milage. The real saving is in the shutting down of the engine. The electric motor takes over in some situations, but the motor does not save gas. The motor uses energy that traces back to the gas tank eventually. Only when the car is coasting without drawing any power from the battery nor the gas tank, then it is the most efficient state. You get more opportunities to coast in city than on the highway. If you time it right and minimize the use of the gas pedal and the brake, stop and go traffic offers you more opportunities to shut down your engine which in turn result in very good milage. When I see the road is jammed, I would just let the car roll slowly on its own, by the time I close the gap, the car in front moves forward already and the cycle repeats. Usually I can move the car at a steady slow pace to match with the stop and go pace. I touch on the gas or brake very lightly when the pace changes. The 5 minutes consumption bars often show in the range of 75 to 99 mpg when I am stuck in traffic like that. If you've never gotten that kind of milage, you are probably one of those who slams on the gas to catch up and then slams on the brake to stop before hitting the bumper in front of you. The "stop" part always wastes energy, the "go" part always uses energy, but the Prius's stop and go is guaranteed to be more efficient than any other cars' stop and go because the regen braking recover a small portion of the waste. Since the recovery cannot be 100%, braking always waste energy. You can maximized your mileage when you learn how to use steady pace avoid the "stop and go" in "stop and go" traffic. Kowloonese 00:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of our anecdotal experiences are, we need to cite such statements and comply with verifiability guidelines. In the section on "2004-2006...", it covers the fact about the Prius getting better fuel efficiency in the city, "...with 60 miles per US gallon (4.3 L/100 km) city and 50 miles per US gallon (4.7 L/100 km) highway (according to the EPA). When driven appropriately, commuting and mixed suburban drivers are reporting fuel consumption of 45 to 50 miles per US gallon (5.2 to 4.7 L/100 km)." I think this statement covers it well, with citations.

I have also looked up fuel efficiency estimates from Natural Resources Canada, which are 56.0 mpg (highway) and 58.8 mpg (city) [8], when converted from the litres/100 km format they use. Australia just gives a combined estimate, with 53.4 mpg for the Prius. [9] Both these estimates sound more realistic to me (especially the 56 highway), and I guess my problem is just with the way EPA does testing. But, if we say "according to the EPA", that's sufficient.

As for the paragraph in the previous section, "For any car, aerodynamic losses are much greater on the highway than in low speed city driving..." just doesn't sound right to me, too much unsubstantiated commentary, and lacks citations. I think we can reword this paragraph better and add citations. I'll think some more about how to do that. -Aude (talk | contribs) 01:38, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

The drag to the car in different speed can be computed using some known formula. See Drag (physics) for the drag equation. Based on the known equation and given the same air density, and same car shape, the drag on the car is proportional to the square of the velocity. i.e. when you double your speed, the drag on the car increase 4 folds. Isn't that strong enough support of that statement? What other citation do you need? Kowloonese 01:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I have reworded the paragraph to provide references to aerodynamic and drag (physics), and attempted to clarify what's meant by "low power", and how the car captures kinetic energy through regenerative braking. My main concern now is with the sentence "This means the advantages of a hybrid are mainly in city driving. The hybrid has less of an advantage in highway driving" and the specific term, "advantage" and "mainly". Looking at Canadian fuel economy estimates, the difference between city and highway efficiency are not as great. And as you mention, the "advantages" during city driving may be offset by real-world conditions, such as driving techniques, use of air condition, short trips, etc. With my own driving, I do keep a steady pace, and my highway mileage is closer to Canadian estimates (56) than American estimates (51). So, to play up the advantages too strongly, the car has for city driving, I think can be misleading. The advantage can be mentioned, but with more subtle wording. -Aude (talk | contribs) 02:18, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I also have a problem with the sentence "This means the advantages of a hybrid are mainly in city driving. The hybrid has less of an advantage in highway driving" The Prius is more efficient than most of the cars in the market, in both highway and city driving. So the advantage is there. However, as the EPA estimate point out the city driving has a much greater advantage. e.g. comparing my Toyota Prius with my Acura MDX, 51mpg with 23mpg (highway) and 60 with 17mpg (city). The advantage on both are obvious, while the city advantage is proportionally greater. The problem sentence seems to imply that because of the better city advantage, the highway advantage disappears. That is bogus. Kowloonese 20:53, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Catalytic converter and engine shutdown (in How it works)

The following paragraphs are interesting ideas, but I do not find any articles supporting it. Doesn't shutting down the engine completely cool the catalytic converter more than idling? Is the powerful motor really helping to lessen the shock? Please provide the supporting materials. If nobody provides evidences, I will remove the following paragraphs. Lifetime 19:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

As well as the immediate benefit of reducing fuel consumption and emissions, stopping the engine also improves the performance of the catalytic converter, as in a normal vehicle the exhaust gases from an idling engine tend to cool the catalysts below their optimal temperature.

Frequent starting up and shutting down of the engine does not cause additional wear and tear nor emission problems, as in conventional automobiles, because the drive motors have enough power to quickly and smoothly spin the engine to optimal rpm (around 1,000) before the engine actually begins to "fire up". This avoids wear when the engine is "running" (with fuel and spark) at very low rpm, as happens in most vehicles.

The second of those paragraphs has been documented by engineers several times on the Prius enthusiast Yahoo Gthoi 'Prius-2G'. In addition to getting the engine up to around 1,000 RPM, it also gets the oil pressure up before adding fuel and spark. I will try to dig up a more precise reference. The behavior is also dicumented on the enthusiast site, www.john1701a.com.

Trivia removed

I removed the folliwing trivia:

• Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, drives a Prius.
• Bill Maher, host of the HBO series Real Time with Bill Maher, drove a Prius for 3 years before trading it in for the Lexus RX 400h hybrid.
• Not only did actor Leonardo Dicaprio buy himself a Prius, he bought several for others in his family.
• Actresses Kirsten Dunst and Cameron Diaz both drive Priuses.

The reason is because I don't think it's noteable or significant enough anymore to note who drives Priuses. You're welcome to move the trivia to the page for that respective person. I've left in Priuses that appear in TV shows because these are more noteable. People watching the show will actually see the car for example. Having said that, given the increasing popularity of the Prius, we need to be careful not to add every single occurance of the Prius in a TV show or movie. Nil Einne 08:11, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I've moved all the trivia to the respective celebirties page except for Sergey because it already mentions he drives a Prius Nil Einne 01:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Enthusiast sites

The list of enthusiast sites looks long. What do you recommend we do about it? Options:

1. Delete the entire section. Let people use Google to find enthusiasts sites.
2. Keep the top 3 or so. How are they ranked?
3. Leave it as is.

Daniel.Cardenas 19:39, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Two motors

The second section "How it works", in bullet number 2, states there are "two" electric motors in the Prius. But I only know of one drive motor. The Toyota Prius web page refers to one gasoline engine and one electric motor. Unless someone objects, I'll correct the reference next week. WVhybrid 03:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Definitely two. They're needed to provide the variable gearing. See http://www.hybridsynergydrive.com/en/power_split_device.html and http://john1701a.com/prius/documents/Prius_Energy-Flow.pdf (pdf) --Cavrdg 12:31, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are incorrect about the number of electric traction motors. If you want to talk about non-traction motors, there are a lot. (And, yes, in fact, the Highlander Hybrid SUV and some Lexus cars have two traction motors.) There are least a dozen electric motors that provide hotel services for the Prius, including the air-conditioner/heat pump compressor, the air-conditioning air fan, the radiator fan, the fuel pump, the oil pump, braking boost system motor, the water pump, the three windshield wiper motors, the 4 power window motors, the CD player drive motor, the CD door drive motor, etc., etc. And from the specs there appears to be an electric motor (referred to as “electronically controled” in the specs) to position the planetary gears in the CVT, but that motor doesn’t provide traction.

The statement implies that there are two drive motors on the Prius, and, according the owner’s manual, the Toyota’s Hybrid Synergy Drive web page, and the Toyota web page, there are not. WVhybrid 19:03, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

From http://john1701a.com/prius/documents/Prius_Energy-Flow.pdf:

Electricity generated by the Small Motor is sent to the Power Inverter. This device decides whether the electricity should be used immediately by the Big Motor (50 kW) to provide extra thrust for the wheels, passed to the Battery-Pack for charging it, or directed to both at the same time.

So the small motor helps "drive" the car.

The specs talk about the larger motor but that doesn't mean the smaller motor doesn't exist.

I don't know where you got your info from the Synergy Drive web site. Daniel.Cardenas 19:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

The Prius motor-generators are called MG1 and MG2. The Toyota site doesn't appear to have a diagram showing them at present but this pdf shows the three (MG1, MG2 and MGR) in the Highlander.--Cavrdg 19:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is a matter of interpretation. If you talk about the motor generators as part of the drive train (a.k.a. the HSD hybrid synergy drive), then there are two motors, the MG1 and MG2. If you only talk about the one directly driving the wheels, then it is one of these two MGs. It does not make sense to exclude the other motor just because it is not directly driving the wheels. The ICE drives the planetary gear, not the wheels directly either, so if you insist the Prius only have one drive motor, then you need to also exlude the ICE by the same rule. In other words, it only make sense to talk about the whole drive train regardless which component drive the wheels directly. If you want to include the power window's motors also, then the Prius has numerous motors like any other cars. It is fair to say the Toyota has 2 electric motors in the drive train. For example, when the car is stationary and the ICE is running, one of the MGs has to spin backward like crazy to counteract the engine's spinning. Since both motors are in the drive train, the number should be two. Kowloonese 23:05, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

plug-in

"When compared to plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, the fuel and emissions saving of the Prius is modest." How can we make a comparison with something that's not even sold as a production car? --cassini83 02:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Am I the only one who thinks the Plug-in section is a bit too POV? Stev0 15:05, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Used as Source by Jeremy Clarkson

This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. The citation is in: Jeremy Clarkson. "At long last, that hybrid hocus-pocus has a point", The Sunday Times (UK), 30 July 2006. (details)

From the article:

Wikipedia says the Toyota Prius looks like and performs like a normal car but delivers 50% better fuel economy. That’s not true. A Prius doesn’t look or perform like a normal car and it will do only 45mpg — far, far less than you’d get from a Golf diesel, say.

Richard Taylor 02:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but a Golf (or any other) deisel couldn't be considered a normal car, could it? Stev0 07:46, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I think restricting 'normal cars' to gasoline-fuelled ones would be an extremely narrow definition, especially given the popularity of diesel, which is entirely due to the excellent milage diesel engines give. The emissions from diesel are more polluting than from gasoline though, which is how I'd counter what Clarkson is saying, but unfortunately there's no denying that most small-to-medium-sized diesel cars will return significantly higher mpg than the Prius.

Diesel may be popular in Europe, but it certainly isn't popular in the US. Call it US-centric, but "normal" seems to imply gasoline burning to me. My average mileage in my Prius is in the 50 MPG range, with peaks well into the 60s and higher during the year. While it is true that you can get a small diesel that performs similarly, reaching up into the 50s and 60s, most comparably sized diesels like the Jetta would only be in the 40 MPG range.LaughingMan11 08:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Smart Key System

I'd just like to mention that at present, the right-hand drive models in Australia have the "Smart Key System", and it functions identically to the left-drive models described in the article.

Anybody mind if I shorten this down a bit? The page is pretty long and we don't need to know all the options for the SKS, just that it exists and basically what it does (also, consumers are becoming more familiar with this concept as it is now also showing up in other cars). If they want to know more, they can go to PriusChat or read their manual. Nerfer 20:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Addition of discussion of low-battery symptoms?

Hi, I know little about the cars, but I wanted to point out how Priuses react quite differently to a common and easy-to-diagnose condition in non-hybrid cars. Perhaps a mention of this could be added for other Prius drivers' benefit, and maybe start a section with other sorts of "when things go wrong" differences. My 2005 Prius had a battery that was going bad, not the hybrid battery but the other one. In a non-hybrid, this would be apparent as hesitation and slowness during cranking, especially when the car has sat for a while, and you would take it in for either battery or alternator replacement. In the Prius, the car had trouble 'booting'. Sometimes, it would have no response to the Power button, sometimes it would have a partial response but would not show the boxed READY on the dash, but generally, it would end up booting after a few attempts. This went on for a few weeks, and it was unclear what the problem was; the dealer didn't even figure it out when really they should have. Finally, one morning I tried to start the car, I couldn't, and it wouldn't return my key. I had the car towed and a mechanic at the same dealer figured out that the battery went bad. A common condition, easily diagnosed in a regular car, but in the Prius, it gave otherwise atypical symptoms.

useful information, but if we started adding this type of thing to an already-long page, it would quickly get completely unwieldy. Go to PriusChat.com or another website to share that information. Nerfer 06:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

hey yall