Talk:Tove Jansson

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

WikiProject Biography     (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] This article is supported by the Arts and Entertainment work group. WikiProject Comics      (Rated Start-Class)   (Rated High importance) comics Portal This article is in the scope of WikiProject Comics, a collaborative effort to build an encyclopedic guide to comics on Wikipedia. Get involved! Help with current tasks, visit the notice board, edit the attached article or discuss it at the project talk page. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Please explain the rating here. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale. More information: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: not checked Coverage and accuracy: not checked Structure: not checked Grammar: not checked Supporting materials: not checked To fill out this checklist, please add the following to the template call: <!-- 1. It is suitably referenced, and all major points are appropriately cited. --> |B-Class-1=yes/no <!-- 2. It reasonably covers the topic, and does not contain major omissions or inaccuracies. --> |B-Class-2=yes/no <!-- 3. It has a defined structure, including a lead section and one or more sections of content. --> |B-Class-3=yes/no <!-- 4. It is free from major grammatical errors. --> |B-Class-4=yes/no <!-- 5. It contains appropriate supporting materials, such as an infobox, images, or diagrams. --> |B-Class-5=yes/no Related work groups (general): Comics creators work group Related work groups (nations and regions): European comics work group WikiProject Finland (Rated start-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Finland, a WikiProject related to the nation of Finland. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (comments) WikiProject LGBT studies     (Rated Start-Class) LGBT Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBT related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page. Start This article has been rated as Start-class on the quality scale.

Contents 1 Orientation 1.1 Sourcing 1.2 The way it reads and why I'll change it just a bit 2 Comic strips

[edit] Orientation

It's clear that her partner is a woman from both the category "lesbian artists" and the fact that Tuulikki Pietilä inspired a female character in the Moomin books; but since the name isn't obviously female to a non Finnish reader there could be some confusion.

I know it doesn't really matter, but the article might as well state her sexual orientation clearly. --Starwed 06:33, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Good point, I'll try and track down a reference and then I'll add it. Might take me a few days though. Hiding talk 10:21, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree...I read this article and I was thinking, "life partner..." does that mean she was, really, romantically/sexually involved with this person Tuulikki? It's unclear from the article as it stands.--Zaorish 04:07, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing

I forgot all about this, sorry, thanks for the prod, Zaorish. It's citable that she had a female lifelong companion, [1], [2], [3], [4], that they were girlfriends, [5], [6] and the British Film Institute describe her as a lesbian in this pdf press release [7]. I think there's enough sources there to support it. I would add it appears it was something of a secret, albeit perhaps an open one, in Finalnd: [8], but I can't cite a better source for that as yet.

• I think the way the article reads reflects the sources pretty well, if you ask me. Hiding talk 10:37, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The way it reads and why I'll change it just a bit

Hiding, you're right that it's not a big deal, and that it's pretty clear as it stands. However, at least from my USA perspective, famous gay people have long been described in encyclopedias and history books, eupehmistically', as living with "companions" or "partners" or "romantic friends." (Even the woman who wrote one of our national anthems, Katharine Lee Bates.)

In the USA this has begun to change, only very recently, and historians have slowly begun to accept homosexuality for what it is. I hope you will see this not as USA bias, but rather increasing clarity, for American readers as well as other English speakers.

So I feel this article should be just a little more explicit. I will do this myself in a bit.--Zaorish 11:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

No, I fully appreciate that; in fact it seems to have happened with Jansson in Finland and elsewhere. That's what I meant when I stated that the article represents the sources; the sources are just as inexplicit as the article. It was extremely hard to find a source that explicitly described her as a lesbian. However, one was found and I'd support the article describing her as such. I just wish we had a better source for the fact that it was an open secret; that would be relevant, I can't think of any biographies of Jansson off the top if my head, but I will stay on the hunt. Hiding talk 11:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Oh, ok, so the source is still unclear. I'm sorry, I was confused--you said that the article, as it exists faithfully reflects the ambiguity of the sources. In that case, then let's not jump to any conclusions. I will go do some googling myself. Thanks for your patience in discussing this edit!

Thinking for a moment now, I come suddenly to the realization the putting hard boundaries on certain peoples' homosexuality, especially for women, is also a somewhat recent development. When I look, I will keep an open mind for such ambiguities.--Zaorish 02:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool. Any help you need don't hesitate to ask. Sorry to have confused you. I'm not sure there's any ambiguity about her sexuality, there just isn't much to actually cite regarding it, so it doesn't seem wholly relevant. It's also worth noting there's a reliable source which talks of her being engaged in her early twenties, so would we then describe her as bisexual? I sort of take the view that sexuality is something of a fluid affair, or a sliding scale, and unles a person's sexuality is notable in its own right, I always ponder if it is therefore necessary to discuss it in great detail. I'm not convinced Jansson's sexuality is important to her work, as such, although I can see an argument in listing Jansson as a lesbian in categories and lists where such lists have encyclopedic value. However, YMMV, and that's cool. Hiding talk 09:38, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comic strips

The page on Finnish Wikipedia seemes to state that there are nine volumes in the series, not seven as the article here states. But I don't speak Finnish, so maybe I got it wrong. Could someone check, please? Jashiin 09:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This could well be correct, that there are nine volumes. The Swedish volumes I have only mention seven, so that's what I quoted. The list on the Finnish page does look like there are nine, but someone really is going to have to check, since those publishing dates are nowhere near the ones in the two Swedish books I have. It could be that the Finns decided to release the cartoons split up differently than the English or Swedish books.

(The main reason for adding this reference was in large part to alert English readers that there's some very interesting English Moomin material that they might not be aware of.) Regards. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 23:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I see. I think you're right and the Finns simply have a different edition. There's a webpage on the Finnish Wikipedia specifically about the comic strips, maybe it explains this, but we'll have to wait for someone Finnish to check it :) Thanks for your reply! Jashiin 09:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Drawn & Quarterly are confusing the issue even further, collecting the works in five volumes according to this press release. [9]. Hiding Talk 10:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the ideal way to deal with this is write a separate article on the comic strips, listing them all and then explaining that different editions are available. This is actually easier than it sounds, given that the Finnish page for some reason lists all English titles. Jashiin 10:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If we can get someone to translate that page, that would be even more of a benefit. Hiding Talk 10:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I made a request at Wikipedia:Translation/Moomin comic strips, I figure we can always move the article to a better name after the translation if needs be. Hiding Talk 10:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thans for making that request! I was thinking about doing it myself, but I'm really no good in most things Wikipedia except just article editing (I know, I have to learn..), so I was kind of hoping someone else would do it :) Jashiin 21:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems the Jansson cartoons are "canonical", if I can use the jargon, being in that they have the same artist, same characters, same writer. I.e., they are in some ways an extension of the books. Whereas a Batman or Tintin movie spinoff is quite different from the original artist's presentation, and belong on a different page? Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 10:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but we have separate pages for the books, and this is just following summary style. If we break out a separate article, we can summarise it back to both this article and the parent Moomin article. Does that make sense and/or address your concerns? Hiding Talk 11:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

That works for me. As long as we let Moomin book readers know there's something they are quite likely to be interested in. By which, I mean, the local bookstore asked me to bring in my albums so they could see them. They're seen as being part of the original concept. Contrarily, none of the Batman or the Tintin videos had the same "feel" as the originals. Anyhow, we wouldn't want to change the general Wiki format for this one exception. Jansson is close to unique. Alpha Ralpha Boulevard 11:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

When/if the article gets translated, we can simply put a concise description on this page, so that people know that Jansson herself drew the strips, and add a link to the separate page ("Main page: Moomin comic strips", or a similar mention). Like Hiding said, its common practice. Jashiin 21:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I happen to have here the the ninth book of the Finnish edition, and indeed it contains as it's first story the "Fuddler's Courtship", the last strip drawn by Tove, followed by the "Moomin's Lamp", the first strip drawn by her brother Lars. The total number of volumes in this series is 24, all the latter ones were drawn by Lars. I don't have any Swedish versions available, but I can see from internet that the total number volumes in Swedish is 24 as well, and cover art seems to be identical, so I presume that applies to the contents as well. Otherwise, the books themselves have no names, just numbers. The names of the stories are translated already (my assumption is that they are from the original English language newspaper strips, translated by Lars Jansson himself) on the linked wiki page. Rxyz (talk) 22:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, to my knowledge, there are two different series of strips in Swedish, one consist of larger boks with four strips or something on each page, the other series only have one strip on each page. I wouldn't be surprised if these series differed wildly in numbering. 惑乱 分からん * \)/ (\ (< \) (2 /) /)/ * (talk) 02:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)