Talk:Toruń gingerbread
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For Thorner Lebkuchen, Piernik see:
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[edit] Thorner Lebkuchen, Pfefferkuchen
History backround for gingerbread, spice cookies Honigkuchen (honey cakes-cookies), Lebkuchen, Pfefferkuchen [1]
Mmm, thanks for making an article on this! I had a look on the website in the article (the town's official site) and moved the article to the name used on the English-language part of the website. If predominant English-language use can be shown to be otherwise however, feel free to change to something more suitable. Knepflerle 12:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well, first of all, calling it gingerbread is rather inaccurate, Lebkuchen is closer. Also, while Poles may insinuate that its a Polish recipe from a Polish town, and English use often copies that (up to Toruń pierniki), it clearly is connected to the city's German tradition and the German name, Thorn. Thus, the traditional name should be used, as the treaty of Versailles does not require amnesia of traditional recipes. Google books reflects this, even when narrowed down to post-WW2 era and Copernicus. Also, English does hardly uses the Polish diacritics anyway.
- +gingerbread +Toruń 2
- +gingerbread +Torun 33
- +gingerbread +Thorn 473
- Thorn Copernicus gingerbread date:1945-2007 6
- Torun Copernicus gingerbread date:1945-2007 14
-- Matthead discuß! O 15:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
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- Few issues with the above-
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- Gingerbread is slightly imprecise - it's one of those things for which English has no native word to translate it - Gingerbread isn't wrong per se, it just includes some very un-Lebkuchen/un-piernik type things too in its remit. In English-speaking countries I've seen Lebkuchen sold as Lebkuchen, piernik sold as piernik, and both sold as gingerbread. Usage is variable, and on en.wiki I think an English interpretation will help the reader, and worth the slight loss in precision. If a non-English non-translation is used, I see no particular reason to use Lebkuchen over piernik either.
- Google books doesn't back up your argument at all well when you really analyse the hits. 'Thorn' throws up many false positives, due to its far more common meaning [[spine{botany)]]. Once these are excluded there's little in it pre-1945, and in modern era usage Toruń has the edge.
- Unfortunately it seems you can't use Google Books to analyse the diacritic usage - the optical character recognition doesn't seem to distinguish n and ń. In fact, if you look at your results *+gingerbread +Torun, the first four where you can see the original text all use Toruń! (the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th). One day they might get round to refining their search engine and OCR a bit more, but I can't see much advantage from their side. I think there's a decent case for sticking with Toruń, and using redirects for non-diacritics versions to make sure people can find the article easily. Knepflerle 19:34, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
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- Few issues with the above-
[edit] Couple of mistakes
The article has a couple of mistakes:
- Katarzynki are just a brand of Pierniki Torunskie, not Pierniki themselfs.
- Pierniki Torunskie aren't based on German Nuremberg product, but are seperate creation. In fact during Middle Ages their recipe was guarded as secret from German cities.
- Also never heard of them being considered part of German cousine rather then Polish. Is there any reference for that ?
But those errors will soon be corrected as I will expand the article.--Molobo 21:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "also known as Polish gingerbread"
The gingerbread isn't ", also known as Polish gingerbread,". Stop adding it, Molobo and Space Cadet.[2] [3] [4] It's supposedly supported by one source, as if that was enough, and even that source doesn't say it was also known as "Polish gingerbread". All the source says - and it is the only time that "Polish gingerbread" appears in it - is, after it had written something about Torun gingerbread, it says: "The Polish gingerbread story has an interesting twist that is outside the scope of this study but relevant to the ways in which Poles took foreign ideas and reinvented them." Sciurinæ (talk) 20:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- A new source, a new joke - published in 1941 by the "Polish information center". It says: "The Poles used honey instead of sugar and for medical purposes. They also used mead and used honey to make bread. This bread has come down to modern times as the delicate and delicious "Piernik," or Polish gingerbread." It makes no reference to Torun gingerbread, not even to the city Thorn, Torun or Toruń, but that's okay. ... No, I'm just kidding. Sciurinæ (talk) 22:01, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Verifiability
Seeing the recent edits, please provide a source for the edits, everybody, if you don't want to get them deleted as unverifiable again. Sciurinæ (talk) 21:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] (Sigh)
Since it doesn't seem like either Space Cadet or Molobo is thinking of explaining this edit beyond making an accusation of "disruptive behaviour", let me try another time:
As for its oh-so-well-known name of Torun gingerbread as Polish gingerbread, see above, still unanswered. Edit warring does not make it better sourced.
The Talk:Gdansk/Vote dictates the use of double naming. How many times, actually it's more like years, should I say this to you? It's up to you to prove that the necessary spices were brought for the gingerbread over seventy years before traces of its existence were traceable.
You said the sentence about the route was OR, but why don't you just look into the source Molobo founded the whole text on (except for example that sentence): "Of course, there would be no gingerbread without the root spices, which unfortunately had to be brought from remote countries - mainly India, by the trail that led through the Black Sea and Lwów to Germany, where the spices were transported by north-German trade companies. Some of the spices were also brought from Gdańsk."
Regarding the piece "The early Polish people used honey instead of sugar and apllied medicine. A special kind of bread was also made from honey and mead. This special kind of bread was called "Piernik"", WP:NOR dictates: "to demonstrate that you are not presenting original research, you must cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article." (emphasis not mine) I wouldn't know how that "reliable source"'s info is directly related without even mentioning Torun gingerbread once.
What on earth does the "(Toruński piernik)" do in "The first mention of Torun gingerbread(Toruński piernik) comes from 1380"? If that really was the first mention, as implied, provide a source. Sciurinæ (talk) 23:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Unsourced claims
On 3 November 2007 83.27.75.103 (talk · contribs) from "Neostrada Plus, Wroclaw, Poland" completely rewrote the article, removing most mentions of the German background of Thorner Lebkuchen, while adding a "in Polish culture" section. Barely any sources were provided, nor were enough added since. -- Matthead Discuß 05:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Thorner Lebkuchen, Pfefferkuchen
History backround for gingerbread, spice cookies Honigkuchen (honey cakes-cookies), Lebkuchen, Pfefferkuchen
Thorner Kathrinchen, Honigkuchen, Lebkuchen (Polish: Piernik)
Toruń gingerbread (Polish: pierniki toruńskie, German: Thorner Kathrinchen, Lebkuchen), also Thorner Honigkuchen or Thorner Pflastersteine [5] are since medieval times traditional small sweet bakery goods (gingerbread type) from Thorn, Prussia. A factory developed from a family shop Weese, which started in 1763 and was continues under different owners today in the city of Toruń, Poland as Thorner Lebkuchen [6].
Varieties
- Gingerbread covered with chocolate: Kathrinchen, Polish: "Katarzynki", Gingerbread hearts, Gingerbread hearts covered with chocolate
- Filled gingerbread covered with chocolate
- Gingerbread iced
- Gingerbread iced, filled
- Classic gingerbread
- Devorative Gingerbread
- Gingerbread monuments
[edit] History
The making of small sweet baked goods (spice cookies) (Lebkuchen, Honigkuchen, Pfefferkuchen), commonly but inaccurately referred to as gingerbread, is a long-time tradition often undertaken in cloisters and abbeys. Each type nowadays has specific ingredients, but in English they are commonly simply referred to as gingerbread.
These small breads, sweetened by honey and various added spices (referred to collectively as ‘’Pfeffer’’(pepper)) were made to last for several months. They were baked en masse, stored and passed out by the monks or pastors to the towns people during difficult times. Drinking of honey wine Met (Polish - Miód, pronounced "myood") (see: (mead) goes back to ancient times and honey was the only sweetener available in Europe for many centuries until the Prussian king established Zuckerrüben Anbau (growing of sugar beets). The bakers who make these baked goods became known as Lebküchler of Pfefferküchler and formed guilds or Zünfte, guarding their specified way of preparations within their family and passed their secret receipes from generation to generation.
A considerable factor behind the development of gingerbread-making in the Hanseactic city of Thorn/Toruń was its excellent location. Situated near a river, on high-quality soil, the area provided fine wheat for flour, while nearby villages provided honey. The necessary spices were brought from remote countries, mainly India, via a route through the Black Sea, Lemberg Lviv to the Germanies, where the spices were transported by the north-German trade companies. Some also came from the Hanse city Danzig Gdańsk.
The gingerbreads are named for the Katharinen-Kloster (St. Catherine's) in Thorn, where they were made for a long time. The first mention of Torun gingerbread comes from 1380, Prussia and speaks of a local baker called Niclos Czan, a Peter Czan [7] (modern German spelling Za(h)n) is recorded in Prussian documents and the spelling Niclos was standard German for todays Nicola(u)s as the same Prussian records [8] show. The product quickly gained fame across Prussia and abroad. The recipe had to be guarded from the city of Nuremberg, itself famous for special pancakes. Finally in 1556, they formed an agreement by which each city could bake the specialities of the other.
The artisans weren't the only ones engaged in the production of the delicacy. In the 16th century, the Cistercian Order on the outskirts of the city prospered mainly due to this activity and even sold their product to other countries. During the 17th century, the well-known workshop of the Grauer family appeared. The local authorities were supportive of the lucrative trade and issued several tax breaks on spice imports and export by bakers' guilds so that the trade could be increased. The rector of the Elbing gymnasium Friedrich Hoffmann (1627-1673), who was well known in poet's circles, wrote about the Thorner Pfefferkuchen. In 1745 Tobias Thomas, Pfefferküchler (gingerbread maker) from Thorn established himself in Pilsnitz, Saxony as well and a later Hermann Thomas built a factory in Thorn a hundred years later.
With the establishments of large industries in the 18th and 19th century Europe in general, Thorn also saw a decrease in small individual bake- and other crafts shops. In 1825, only three individual bakers were left. With the advent of capitalism, large companies took over from the local craftsmen and mass production of the gingerbread ensued.
The largest gingerbread factory in Thorn was owned by Gustav Weese based on the establishment in 1763 by Johann Weese. Gustav Traugott Weese had inherited a small workshop after his father Andreas’ death in 1824 and changed it into a large company. The Weese company received orders from many different countries and in 1875 even "Gazeta Toruńska" wrote on New Year's Eve that due to demand they sold as far as Africa. Other exotic places of export included Turkey, Japan, China and Honolulu. In 1913, Gustav Weese had constructed a factory which, after World War I ended, was employing over 500 workers.
Because of the results of the Treaty of Versailles Gustav Weese in January 1939 was forced to 'sell' to the Polish company "Społem". He, like millions of other Prussians, had to leave their longtime family homeland, which was forcibly turned into Poland. Gustav Weese had a company outlet in Berlin and during the war he took over the family company in Thorn again. This came to an end in 1946, when the new communist administration of Poland disowed him. Today a company named Kopernik produces Toruńskie pierniki or Thorner Lebkuchen and is "considered the oldest confectionery company in Poland" today. This seems to make the Weese company, built in Thorn, Prussia , one of the oldest of Europe.
Besides Gustav's factory there was also the Hermann Thomas company founded in 1857, which in 1907 employed 200 workers. Another important company engaged in the production of gingerbread was founded by Jan Ruchniewicz in 1907. The enterprise prospered quite successfully and had 50 workers. It was especially known for the ornamental gingerbread topped with Toruń's crest.
Torun gingerbread in Polish culture
Pierniki Toruńskie, as they are known in Poland, form a part of the symbols of the national cuisine of Poland. They have been praised in literature, poetry, and the other Beaux Arts. As all cities commonly present their important guests with regional specialities, traditionally gingerbread gifts were given by the city of Thorn and Toruń gives pierniki to its Polish leaders, artists and other Poles who have marked themselves in Polish society. In the past they were also given to Polish kings. Baking moulds have survived with the likenesses of Sigismund III and his wife, Władysław IV and queen Cecilia Renate as well with the king's seal of Władysław IV with Polish eagle and royal crown together with crests of provinces. Other notable figures who received the gingerbread as gift from the city are: Maria Kazimiera Sobieska the widow of king Sobieski, bishop of Kujawy Antoni Ostrowski, the French Emperor Napoleon Bonaparte(during his visit the whole city was illuminated and bells were rung all over the city), Zygmunt Krasiński one of the leading Polish romantics, Jan Matejko, Helena Modrzejewska, Josef Pilsudski,Artur Rubinstein,Czesław Miłosz, Lech Wałęsa and John Paul II. Since at least the Middle Ages, "pierniki" have been connected with Toruń in Polish proverbs and legends. One of the legends claims that the gingerbread was a gift from Queen of Bees to the apprentice Bogumił. An old epigram by poet Frederik Hoffman from XVII century speaks of four best things in Poland: "vodka from Gdańsk, Toruń's gingerbread, ladies from Kraków, and shoes from Warsaw". Józef Epifani Minasowicz in XVIII century wrote that if one doesn't drink vodka one is not worthy of tasting the gingerbread, and Jakub Kazimierz Haur stated that peasants ate bread as eager as the gingerbread.
The famous Prince-Bishop Ignacy Krasicki, who wrote Polish poems and who personally favoured pierniki, wrote about them in his poem "Monachomachia". Adam Pług wrote in 1854 about a father returning from a fair to bring his children gingerbread as a gift. Zygmunt Kaczkowski in his "Gniazdo Nieczujów" spoke of it as an exceeding noble food. One particular story connected with Torun gingerbread involves Frederic Chopin, the famous pianist and composer. When 15-year old Chopin visited the Dziewanowscy family in Szafarnia, a small village near the river Drwęca, he also stopped over in Toruń. He naturally sampled the city's famous confection and grew so enamoured of it that he decided to write a letter about them to his friend Jan Matuszynski. Praising the taste of the gingerbread, he even sent some to Warsaw. In honour of that particular event, the largest producer of Toruń gingerbread in Poland - the confectionary company, "Kopernik", has made a special variety of gingerbread called "Scherzo" in the shape of heart and with Chopin's portrait on the wrapping. The town of Toruń holds a yearly celebration dedicated to the gingerbread called Święto Piernika or Festival of Gingerbread.
Current producers
They are two main producers of Toruń gingerbread; the confectionary factory "Kopernik" S.A. and Toruń Bakery. The first upholds its legal rights to the brand name and is the successor of the Gustav Weese company (founded in 1763) forced to sell in 1939 , while the second is the company formed by the bakers and producers from Toruń who specialised in making gingerbread. Its aim is to spread the knowledge of the craft and produce exclusive gingerbread for restaurants, parties and elite meetings.
Trivia
- The largest known Torun gingerbread was made in 1778 and had a size of ca. 2 m long and 0,30 m wide. It was presented to Catherine the Great.
- A variety of Torun gingerbread known in Polish as Katarzynki refer to Saint Catherine of Alexandria, as baking for the holiday season traditionally started in the town's monastery on her feast day, 25 November, the feast of St. Catharine. In German this variety is known as Thorner Kathrinchen.
Sources
[edit] External links
- Gustav Weese Honigkuchen Thorn
- Thorner Lebkuchen, Kopernik company
- Kopernik S.A.: largest Torun gingerbread maker
- (Polish)Torun Bakery
- (German) Recipe, weihnachtsseiten.de
- (English) (Polish) (German) torun.pl: Toruń gingerbread/Thorner Lebkuchen