Talk:Tortilla

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Contents

[edit] Etymology

It would be more proper to note that tortilla means omelette in the majority of Spanish speaking countries outside of Meso-America. You would be hard pressed to get a Chilean, Argentine, Cuban or Dominican to think tortilla is anything else.

The Diccionario de la Real Academia Español says [1]
1. f. Fritada de huevo batido, en forma redonda o alargada, a la cual se añade a veces algún otro ingrediente.
2. f. Am. Cen., Méx., P. Rico y R. Dom. Alimento en forma circular y aplanada, para acompañar la comida, que se hace con masa de maíz hervido en agua con cal, y se cuece en comal. Es fundamental en la alimentación de estos países.
3. f. NO Arg., Bol. y Chile. Pequeña torta chata, por lo común salada, hecha con harina de trigo o maíz, y cocida al rescoldo.
which means, roughly,
1. f. Fritatta (or omelette) of beaten egg, in round or extended form, to which some other ingredient is sometimes added.
2. f. Central America, Mexico, Puerto Rico, and Dominican Republic. Round, flat food, that typically accompanies a dish, made from corn dough boiled in water with lime (not the fruit), and cooked on a comal (metal or mud cooking surface). It is a dietary staple in these countries.
3. f. Argentina, Bolivia, and Chile. Small flat cake, usually salty, made with wheat or corn flour, and cooked to the embers.
The RAE indicates the Mexican tortilla is the normal meaning of tortilla in Mexico, Central America, Puerto Rico, and the Dominican Republic, and in South America, particularly in Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia, a different food is called tortilla, but it has much more in common with the Mexican kind than the Spanish kind. In Colombia, too, the normal meaning of tortilla would be the kind made with flour, not eggs, although it's not really a big part of the cuisine there (they eat arepas, which seem to be similar to Argentine, Bolivian, and Chilean tortillas).
But all of this is beside the point, because this is the English Wikipedia, and the primary meaning of tortilla in English is the Mexican variety. However, yes, the point is correct that it might be a good idea to mention that to many speakers of spanish (if not necessarily the "majority of Spanish speaking countries) use tortilla to mean what is called a "Spanish tortilla" on this page.Nohat 01:30, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)


You're completely right. Mesoamerican tortillas are unknown in South America and large parts of the Caribbean. Additionally, I have never seen this South American tortilla in Argentina, so it must be quite limited. In any case, judging by their usage of the word Native Mexican/Nahuatl word "tamal" for "traditional" food, it might be that it was recently imported (i.e. less than 450 years) anyway. I am going to change the entry to reflect this, using Mesoamerica as the "original" territory of the "American" tortilla. --mexicatl 10:33, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Bias! Horrible and terrible Bias!

"Corn tortillas are customarily served and eaten warm; when cool, they acquire a rubbery texture and are less appetizing."

I'm eating a cold tortilla right now, straight from the refridgerator, and it's delicious.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.144.78.17 (talk • contribs) .

I actually like them cold also. We are wierd. :p--Teacherbrock (talk) 14:40, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flour tortilla

"The flour tortilla is probably best known as the tortilla used to make burritos, a modern "mexi-cali" food invented in California."

That is totally false, I am from the northern mexican state of Sonora, where flour tortillas are the traditional ones and most consumed, maize tortillas are not as widespread as flour tortillas. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.171.55.88 (talk) 18:42, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

That's wrong on two counts, burritos weren't invented in California. Tubezone 19:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nicaragua´s Staple Food

Nicaragua has been omitted from the section talking about handmade, thicker tortillas. Being the poorest country in central america, you can count on people making tortilla in the absence of Capital equipment. I´m not sure what kind of citation you would need for this comment to be integrated into the article, but rest assured that I am there right now and I eat it three times a day and help the family desgranar (degrain) the kernels from the maiz. Every Nicaraguan pueblo or communidad has a molino (a thing that grinds) for those who want to make maza from what they have soaked in cal (fireplace ashes) the night before. 190.7.64.101 20:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)Lucian

[edit] Unleavened

Tortillas may be historically unleavened, but the rollable white flour northern mexican tortilla that is often described in the article always has a leavening agent i.e. baking soda. Google "tortilla recipe" and the first three or four (admittedly americentric) results will all have baking soda. Unleavened maize tortillas are, and someone correct me if I am wrong, inflexible and crisp like matzo. They're more like what a North American might think of as a taco shell. Ombligotron 22:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

You are right. I researched this and one of the main ingridients for Rexal, an ingredient used for Flour Tortilla, is baking soda (see: this link). I don't know about the maize tortilla, but at least for flour tortilla, it is used. You should add it, along with sources, to the article. Hari Seldon 23:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move or disambiguate?

I was surprised to see the tortilla article is about the 'Mexican tortilla' (as I shall call it for lack of a better name). I expected it to be either about the original, Spanish, tortilla or be a disambiguation page. 'Tortilla' is a rather odd name for the Mexican tortilla because it literally means 'little pie' ('torta' means 'pie'). And it is usually translated as an omelette (my Spanish-Dutch dictionary gives only that translation). As I understand it, tortilla originally refers to some round comestible, which leaves open what it is made of.
This article could also be more than disambiguation, giving an short overview of the various things that are tortillas, which is already the case to some extent. For example, the football article is also neutral as to which sport that is and deals with all of them. Of course it doesn't have to be anywhere near as extensive, but the idea is to not 'take sides', so to say, or this could become a very lengthy discussion between Europeans and North Americans (I don't suppose many South Americans will be active here). In my opinion the Spanish tortillas should really be the subject of this article, because for the Mexican tortilla it is really a misnomer, it is not what most people mean by the word 'tortilla' and the Spanish omelette had the name before the Mexican 'unleavened bread' did. But I decided to save time and jump to the conclusion this discussion would probably get to.
Still one problem remains. What should the 'Mexican tortilla' be called? It's really a pancake, isn't it? The only difference is that it's made from maize, but for the rest the preparation is really like a pancake.
Anyway, what I propose is something like this: "Tortilla is a Spanish word literally meaning 'little pie', which is used to refer to either omelettes (mostly in Europe) or pancakes (mostly in North America." And then some history, plus some more words on the different variations, with the details moved to separate articles. DirkvdM 12:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a question of relevance. About 45 million people live in Spain and interact daily with the "Spanish" Tortilla omelette. On the other hand, over a 110 million people in Mexico, about 30 million (or more) Hispanic Americans in the US, and the population of other countries in Central America (like Guatemala, Costa Rica, Honduras, and others) interact with the Latin American Tortilla (Mexican Tortilla, if you will) on a daily basis. Additionally, the Latin American tortilla is marketed as such in other continents, including Europe and Asia. Gruma, the largest (Latin American) Tortilla maker in the world has plants in all these continents.
Thus, as you can see, a move is not an option. It is clear that the Latin American Tortilla should take precedence over the lesser used Spanish Tortilla. I would suggest creating a separate article for the Spanish Tortilla and add a disamiguation link at the top of this page. Tortilla should link here, as it is clear that the vast majority of readers who ask about a "tortilla" would most likely mean a "Latin American" tortilla.
Hari Seldon 15:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
As for your example of the football article. The article you link to makes sense because all sports called football have a related origin. In this case, the Spanish tortilla and the Latin American tortilla do not have a related origin. See Monterrey, or Felipe Calderón to note how articles of different relevance are linked and disambiguated. The article with the most relevance is given priority. A disambiguation link only makes sense when the title can have more than two meanings, and/or when those meanings have a similar relevance. This is clearly not the case. Hari Seldon 15:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
True, there are not enough basic meanings to make a 'strict' disambiguation page. But there is still the problem that to Europeans 'tortilla' has the Spanish meaning. And to South Americans, as is mentioned in the first 'etymology' post above (so the pancake can't be called a 'latin American tortilla'). Together they constitute hundreds of millions of people. I don't know how well known the word 'tortilla' is outside Europe and America (or 'Americas' if you wish), but I don't suppose it is a very well known dish (or side-dish, in case of the Mexican tortilla - confusion, confusion). So there is roughly an equal amount of 'supporters' for either side, so to say. Btw, 'tortilla de patatas' doesn't make sense to distinguish it from the Mexican tortilla because it is a (very big) omelette, not a potato dish (that is just one variation on the theme). The name only makes sense if you already assume it is an omelette. Also, there are several varieties of tortilla, enough for a disambiguation story like in the football article to make sense. Anyway, my aim was to avoid lengthy discussions, such as the ones about 'football' and 'America', so resolving it in a similar manner makes sense. Not that there will be very lengthy discussions about this subject (it's not quite 'big' enough), but it still needs to be resolved or this issue will keep on popping up. DirkvdM 17:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
On the other hand to most en: speaking Europeans - ie the British - tortilla means the Mexican tortilla. So I'd suggest that in the English-speaking world, there isn't much ambiguity, tortilla = Mexican. FlagSteward 14:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The meaning of "tortilla" is associated with the "Latin American" tortilla not just to South Americans, but to all of the Americas (remember the Mexican American population of the US), and to other countries in Asia where the Latin American tortilla is marketed (like China and India -- see Gruma --).
I called it a "Latin American" tortilla to differentiate it with the Spanish Tortilla. I don't like calling it "Mexican" because it is not just a Mexican thing (just as you say, it is also consumed in South America and in Central America). In reality, it is a foodstuff of Mesoamerican origin, thus, if you want, we can call it "Mesoamerican" tortilla, or, since it is a continentally ubiquitous side dish, we can call it an "American" Tortilla.
In any case, the above is just for reference in the talk page, as the name is clearly "Tortilla".
I agree with your "tortilla de patatas" argument, and I agree for the need of a resolution. But I don't think that a disambiguation page like the one in "Football" is needed. It is quite clear that the more prevalent meaning for Tortilla is the one portrayed in the article. I know this to be so because of one simple reason: volume of sales, and presence of the companies making them (Gruma, Bimbo, etc...)
Hari Seldon 20:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
For clarification: The claim above is that in South America 'tortilla' means the omelette variety, not the other way arouns, as you seem to have taken it. Actually, since the Mexican tortilla is something different than the original Spanish meaning, a completely new word should be used for it, but that would be pushing it. That's why I suggested a more neutral approach, but now even that is disputed, so maybe I should take the strict Spanish/Shouth American point of view and then we could 'negotiate' and end up in the middle, which is what I proposed to avoid all that. Oh, dear, negotiations are a bit of a bother for someone who want to cut through the crap. :) DirkvdM 10:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted text

Removed paragraph:

"Most people agree that traditional stone-ground, handmade tortillas taste better, but these have been supplanted by cheaper, less labor intensive, and machine-ground corn flour tortillas. Most restaurants proud of their traditional fare will have at least one person bent over a hot comal, turning out an endless stream of piping hot, handmade tortillas. [neutrality disputed] [weasel words]"

for POV, weasels, and un-encyclopedic language. Not worth revising as its mainly POV, and its only fact which regards in-restaurant tortilla making is mentioned already in another section. I do, however, think that industrial tortilla manufacturing should be addressed eventually. Just not like this of course. Scgamboa 19:43, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flour

Tortillas can only be made of flour, so its an unnecessary description. WWhile in Spain tortilla means something else that isnt relevant here as that is a Spanish word, the en word being omelette, for the en l;anguage tortilla can only mean made of flour, SqueakBox 19:50, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I made this comment before I saw the above, but I think it explains the changes: -SCEhardT 20:02, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I've partially reverted the changes to the image caption. The edit summary said "rm word flour as is default and replace cooked with heated they dont look cooked to me." I've changed the caption to "Two flour tortillas." because: 1)The tortillas are cooked; that is why they hold their shape and have dark spots. and 2)The 'default' isn't flour, at least not historically. As the article states, "The traditional tortilla has been made of corn or maize since Pre-Columbian times." Also, it is unclear in the image whether the tortillas are currently hot. -SCEhardT 19:55, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay my edit summary wasnt clear and yes they are cooked they just arent toasted. On the other hand I think you are mixing up flour and wheat, these tortillas look like they are made of wheat rather than corn but all corn tortillas are amde of corn flour, its just another type of flour. So I have changed it to wheat, SqueakBox 20:06, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Ah, yes, the whole 'flour' / 'wheat flour' / 'corn flour' thing is partially what caused the confusion - I'll go through the article and fix the ambiguous uses of 'flour' -SCEhardT 20:13, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] White or yellow corn

It should be described whether white or yellow corn is used to produce Mexican tortillas. I believe masa harina made from white corn is used much more frequently. Badagnani 01:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A tidbit regarding international definitions;

The article currently states:

But it is the Mexican meaning of "tortilla" that is most familiar to North Americans, and possibly most of the world outside of Europe and South America, where the original Spanish meaning is best known.[citation needed]

I felt it worth noting that I'd never heard of any other meaning of the word until playing "Cooking Mama," a video game for the Wii about making many international dishes. There was a recipe for 'tortilla', but it was the Spanish omelette-style kind; this from a Japanese game! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.20.88.10 (talk) 18:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Need photo of corn tortilla

Need photo of corn tortilla. Badagnani (talk) 02:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)