Talk:Toronto Raptors

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Toronto Raptors article.
Article policies
Featured article star Toronto Raptors is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
NBA This article is part of WikiProject National Basketball Association, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide of the NBA on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page, or visit the WikiProject National Basketball Association, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Featured article FA This article has been rated as FA-Class on the quality scale.
Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Toronto, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Toronto articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
Featured article FA This article has been rated as FA-class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
This article, or a portion of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors in August 2007. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
  • Copyeditor(s): Cricketgirl 21:02, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] older entries

I removed "outside of America" since, the last time I checked, Canada is not part of USA. Gregsinclair 01:30, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The link for Dee Brown is linked to the wrong Dee Brown, correct it when you can:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dee_Brown_%28basketball%29 --216.86.70.188 19:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it just me or is everyone way too high on Alvin Williams here? king 20:38, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In terms of Raptors history, he's still up there. Perhaps in a few years time, as the franchise grows, he'll be forgotten, but for now I think he stays. On that note however, I'm taking off Hakeem and T-Mac off. I know they're both big names, but not for the Raptors. Hakeem did nothing, as great a player he was, and T-Mac hasn't got half the history/contribution to the franchise as the other guys have (apart from the statistical guys - Donyell, etc) Boomtish 10:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Can someone please cite sources for move to st. louis? i have not heard of this. --72.136.150.139 00:07, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Name origin?

When I think of the city of Toronto, the first thing I think of is not some predatory dinosaur. I think it would be helpful for the page if someone posted how they got their name. Was it a unilateral choice by the owners? A citywide vote? Does anyone know? PrinceMyshkin 22:07 January 31 2007 (UTC)

A raptor actually isn't a type of dinosaur. --141.219.44.75 20:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
velociraptor (və-lŏs'ə-rāp'tər)
A small, fast, carnivorous dinosaur of the genus Velociraptor of the Cretaceous Period that was about 2 m (6.5 ft) in length. It had long curved claws for grasping and tearing at prey, walked on two legs that were adapted for leaping, and had a long stiff tail used as a counterweight. Velociraptors were a kind of raptor.[1]
The Toronto Raptors are about the velociraptor, not birds of prey. —LOL 21:54, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I thought so! Got me startled for a while. Chensiyuan 05:28, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
good point. id try to find out. Chensiyuan 03:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
according to chuck swirsky, it's because gm thomas liked that dino movie in the 1990s... ridiculous as it were it's not exactly surprising either. Chensiyuan 03:52, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I have a picture/commemorative book for the Raptors first NBA season, and it says it was chossen from a list of names from the fans. SFrank85 01:51, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
You're right. It was a "Name the Team" contest. It's how most of the 90s expansion teams from all the sports got their names. Although why they chose Raptors is still a mystery to me. Dknights411 02:47, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Ay, i've since added the above information, as well as the corresponding citation, to the article. Feel free to improve the article Raps fans!! Chensiyuan 16:01, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Point of view

I've added an npov tag to the article. Specifically, the "Today" section is written with many opinions not supported by references. Can someone attribute these opinions or remove them? Fagstein 07:35, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Tried to address it. bssc81 - Feb.2 2006
A bit better, thanks. Still needs more work. (For example: "Not to be forgotten"? What does that mean?) Fagstein 06:11, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

I think 'Not to be forgotten' is generally in reference to players who have really contributed historically and/or left an imprint/their legacy of sorts on the franchise. In some cases, there are statistical guys who are not to be forgotten (see Taback, Marshall etc), but otherwise, the rest are fairly prominent in relation the history of this franchise.

And for what it's worth, Rose hardly fits under this category. There is a difference between being recognisable or a name player and contributing to the franchise significantly. Same goes for guys like T-Mac and Hakeem. Boomtish 11:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olympic Selections

Please complete that list.--J3wishVulcan 21:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] today/06-07 season

i think that it would be better if the today section and the 06/07 section were merged together as they are basically the same. it would also conform with other NBA teams and make the page easier to follow. Soccer fan 02:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

- someone should make a seperate page for each Raptors season. almost all the other NBA team pages have something like that. [kaizen@feb4]

that's mainly because their seasons spread out over decades; the raps franchise is something like 12 years. the time will come where separate entries would be needed, and clusters of seasons summarised, but that time has not come yet.Chensiyuan 00:48, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

- understood.[kaizen@feb4]

[edit] pictures

won't it be nice to have some (legitimate) pictures for this entry? Chensiyuan 03:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Right now, I believe this page has too much pictures it now looks like a picture gallery than an encyclopedia. Would it be better to cut some excessive pictures so this page would be cleaner and easier to read? Kaiteng316 05:28, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Since I put up most of the pictures, obviously I felt the opposite. I feel an encylopedia should not stinge on pictures, because apart from being informative (and pictures do have that value), encyclopedias should be interesting. Of course there is such thing as overkill but right now I think it's acceptable. Second opinions? Chensiyuan 11:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Logo

SFrank85 seems to think that the gray claw, introduced in 1995 as the secondary logo, has now become the primary logo. Where is the official announcement that proves this? Please provide the evidence before changing the logo again. When teams change their logo, they announce it officially.[2][3][4][5] If this is indeed their new logo, why in the world did they not say so in the press release announcing their new 2006 uniforms, killing two birds with one stone? You say "this logo is now used in press releases, uniforms, websites, news media, and on the court." Yeah, but it's very common for teams use secondary logos for these purposes; they don't spend thousands or millions designing logos they aren't going to use. Look at the Suns' court, or the Nuggets' shorts. Look around. Perhaps the Raptors are experimenting with their identity and perhaps the claw logo will be officially announced as the primary logo next season. Until it is, stop changing the logo. (I doubt this would happen unless the claw logo is modified. Every primary logo in the league identifies the team by name.) Punctured Bicycle 06:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur wholeheartedly. —MC 23:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the claw logo has definitely become their new primary logo. It is featured on every piece of raptors merchandise now, and the old toronto logo with the raptor where it says toronto raptors is on nothing. this is part of the raptors' campaign, if you will, to become Canada's team, as opposed to Toronto's team, even though they are still situated in Toronto... for example, why would the team put their second logo on all of their new merchandise celebrating their division championship, including the banner they raised to the rafters??? Something has to be done about the logo situation, I fixed it once, but that took forever and i don't have the time.Kmcd151 23:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Why wouldn't they? Merchandise isn't enough evidence. —MC 00:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Frankly it's very simple, an official change of logo would appear on the news of either nba.com or raptors.com. That is the precedent. To the best of my knowledge this has not come about. If any of us finds such news, whether archived somewhere or emerging in the future, then we've got a case. Chensiyuan 00:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Exactly. —MC 00:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

On the court in the ACC, the claw is there. Is that evidence enough? 99.234.164.101 03:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this article enough proof for you? http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2006/09/19/1862183-sun.html

....maybe not right? It's not a "reliable source"? =P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.226.35.219 (talk) 21:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not To Be Forgotten

There are many players in Not To Be Forgotten section that don't deserve to be on the list and need to be removed, but many people keep reverting back. Ones who played with Raptors for a very short period or didn't give any positively significant contribution for the francise. Hakeem may be the legend but he played for the Raptors for a very short period and didn't do anything statistically for the team. The only reason Dell Curry is there is that he's a veteran sharpshooter? I'm not sure about Matt Bonner and Charlie V. But Alonzo Mourning? He didn't even played a single game for the team! And you guys keep bring him back on the list! Kaiteng316 19:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

no hard and fast rules so there isn't any concrete criteria we can look at - or is there? i'm not so sure myself. but mourning is definitely out since he didn't play a single game. sentiments towards certain players are definitely subjectively perceived. even for someone like vince carter, i'm sure plenty of people *do* want to forget him. the best test i suspect is the test of time. maybe a few years from now, people will really ask themselves what in the world is matt bonner doing on the list, and if that's the case, we know we have forgotten him. Chensiyuan 02:40, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I think Charlie-V is notable. He came second in the Rookie of the year award and was in the All-Rookie first team. He scored 48 points and set a Toronto Raptors franchise record for most points by a rookie. He is a notable player and should be included in the list. Brave warrior 02:24, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Ok Charlie-V is a deadlock situation. My view is no -- if he had stayed a little longer maybe. The broader objective of keeping the article concise must also be considered. Chensiyuan 08:34, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
Hakeem's out for me. Manderiko (talk) 23:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rallying all Raps Fans

let's start improving this article by getting the references, which is what, amongst others, this article is sorely lacking. Chensiyuan 15:54, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

the part on raptors fans being success-starved etc... i can't quite figure where is the best place to put that piece of information. it is not specific to any of the seasonal breakdowns, nor does it seem right to put it as a preamble to the seasonal synopses... Chensiyuan 16:44, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rivalries

wonder if the Raps are considered to have any rivalries? then again they spent 9 of 12 seasons thus far in the central division... Chensiyuan 04:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

nets would be a possibility for obvious reasons... i wonder if bulls can be one too since there was a 0-15 run... until today. Chensiyuan 05:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
The only reason the Nets would be considered a rival is Vince Carter, which should be better seen as Raptors vs. Carter's team rivalry. Two teams that come up in my mind that can be seriously considered are New York Knicks and Philadelphia 76ers, especially Knicks because of Playoff series. Kaiteng316 06:01, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
yup your point is noted, except that those two teams won't be around to fight it out for playoffs this season... barring a second half miracle. next season probably. Chensiyuan 14:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

Just from a quick scan, I can say that the references and general info is good, but I'd like the Preseason and Season win-loss records to be integrated into the paragraphs. It would look nicer that way. Again, I'll give a more detailed review soon.--Wizardman 16:27, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I have bits and pieces of criticism in a few spots, but they're really things that one works on in between GA and FA, so I'm going to pass this.--Wizardman 22:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for reviewing this article. Chensiyuan 02:49, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current season has potential to explode

as pointed out by some other users on this talkpage, the section on the 2006-07 season is continually expanding. two reasons: it is a potentially transformative year for the young franchise (e.g. competing to win the Atlantic Division, which if happens, would be its first ever crown, an almost totally new lineup from the last season that has gotten people noticing etc.). second, well with the internet these days as compared to the older seasons, we have a hell lot more information and newsworthy items being made accessible (case in point: i could never find any citations for players who wilfully refuse to report to Toronto in the first few seasons).

so, my point is, i wish to make the 2006-07 season a separate article. it reduces overall length of the Toronto Raptors article, and transfers some pictures (the current number irks at least one user). more importantly, i think it justifies an independent entry.

just to add on, another issue i thought of is if indeed the 2006-07 season becomes a separate article, would it affect the integrity of the article in terms of its GA status? (that said the 2005-06 season may also warrant a separate article)

as such, i would put this idea on hold in case a better idea pops up. Chensiyuan 02:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

would probably create a separate sect for 06-07 after the playoffs. Chensiyuan 02:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling issues, if any

i have a question on spelling. this is about a team which is based in Canada playing in an American league made up of either Americans or Europeans. American spelling or? Chensiyuan 03:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It should be American spelling. Wikipedia's policy on this is apparently stupid, since Chris Bosh does not play "centre" in the Nba, but rather "center." Oh well, not that big of a deal.Squeemu (talk) 01:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Lol. Chensiyuan (talk) 02:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Team's Colours

Recently, someone keep changing Raptor's team colours from red and white to red, purple, white, silver and black. We know that the Raptors have already dropped purple from the team's colours. The problem is the old purple logo is still in widely use in many, let just say most, media, which I'm unsure about it. So, should we keep the purple in the team's template? Kaiteng316 16:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

i'm not too sure of the answer myself, is there a source that confirms all this? Chensiyuan 01:16, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The raptors team colours listed as should be red and white. They are taking a new 'Team Canada' angle with the departure of the Grizzlies to Memphis, making the Raptors the only Canadian team in the NBA. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.122.95.85 (talk) 17:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC).
A source should be provided! Chensiyuan 00:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian/Euro pespective on NBA basketball

there are lots of funny little textual clues that show a "football"-lover wrote the article: i.e., trades called "transfers," EuroLeague referenced like the average american fan knows what it is. also, lots of non-objective comments (some comment about how the current team will go down in history).

however, all that said, a nice article, very informative. Michaeljwsiegel 00:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

the word "transfer" is used once; don't understand your Euroleague comment - can you elaborate; will look into the NPOV aspects (however regarding the "going down in history" aspect you must be viewing a very old/cached version of this article because i can't find that statement anywhere in the article). Chensiyuan 11:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issues

I'm going to try and help out on this article and just list any problems within the Article that I think need clarification (that is, if I can't do it myself).

  • The article says the team was created in 94, then on the right, says founded in 95, then within the context it says established in 93. I'm a bit confused here...I think that needs some clarification
  • The second paragraph of the lead, begins with "The Raptors endured the woes characteristic of many expansion teams and struggled in their early years." That sentence needs to sound less POV, and rephrased. What are the typical problems of early expansion teams? Maybe naming a few would be helpful
  • Alot of the sentences begin with The Raptors this, The Raptors that...it's Ok to use "the team" or any other synonym so it sounds less like a blog, and more like an article.

Zodiiak 04:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

    • A sharp observation. I have since reworded the necessary parts. Basically it's easier to keep the timeline as such: 1993, franchise awarded. 1995, first game played. A lot of things happened in between to get the franchise up and running, but hopefully the key dates, 1993 and 1995, are made clear now.
    • I would find it difficult to compare the situation to another team in a... nice way. The simple solution is to take out that remark altogether... but I've tried rephrasing it.
    • I actually thought "The Raptors" was the least controversial and most proper way to call them! But some variety would be good I suppose. Chensiyuan 04:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Record for blocked shots by one team

I stumbled upon info about the Raptors’ record-breaking 23 blocks on March 23, 2001.[6][7] I haven’t found any evidence that it still stands, but at least it was standing through May 12, 2005.[8] This may be worth a mention in the article.—LOL 01:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I know there's a link in the Raptors article to a subpage, found here, which lists the records including this one. Usually nba.com/history updates quite often I think... as to whether the record should be included in the Raptors article, since the subpage does exist, what do you think? Chensiyuan 01:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
D’oh, how embarrassing for me to have missed that link, although the page didn’t appear when I was using the search engine. —LOL 01:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Raptors Logo

Is it just me, or does it seem like the old raptors logo has been phased out? It seems like it just dissappeared, being replaced by the red claw logo (which in my opinion, looks much better) --Smoothtofu 00:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes the claw logo has been used very extensively in the 2006-07 season but there's no official word yet on it being the new official logo. If you've heard official word of it, it'd be good to provide the link here. Chensiyuan 00:27, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table colour

Image:Toronto Raptors logo.gif
   

The colour #ce0f41 doesn’t look quite like the Raptors’ red to me. It’s too rosy — close to crimson — so I took a sample of the Raptors logo in the article to find #d40026. I think it’s more accurate, and the background of the Raptors.com splash is #d60000 anyway. —LOL 07:53, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Most astute; I would agree the change to d40026 is apt. Chensiyuan 08:48, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archived FAR

Premature FAR removed and archived at Wikipedia:Featured article review/Toronto Raptors/archive1 per consensus at WP:FAR; please review instructions at WP:FAR regarding lag between nomination and review. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm impressed that consensus was supposedly reached at WP:FAR in 2.5 hours. If you actually read my nomination instead of blindly participating in bureaucracy, you'd know that I acknowledged the FAR instructions. Punctured Bicycle 17:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
This consensus has been well established over many, many months (probably at least a year). There has only been one FAR which was different for at least a year that I'm aware of: B movie. The extenuating circumstance was that the article was completely changed after it received support at FAC, there was consensus at WT:FAR to open a FAR in a month, and the FAR was only brought after the main editor was allowed a month to address the concerns. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Consensus is based on a system of good reasons. If there is consensus that "extenuating circumstances" has a limited definition, then I'd like to hear the reasons that were provided back then. Reasons that are relevant to this case. Punctured Bicycle 20:17, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction: Is Pape Sow a Raptor?

I placed a contradiction tag at the top of this article because Pape Sow is not included on the roster in this article, yet Sow's article opens with the sentence "Pape Sow ... is a Senegalese professional basketball player who currently plays for the Toronto Raptors of the NBA." Does anyone have information on Sow's status? Let me know and I'll update his article.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 19:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

ESPN lists him as an unrestricted free agent. [9]. Zagalejo 19:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I updated the Sow article.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 21:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for keeping a lookout. Chensiyuan 23:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

I don't know anything about basketball, so I thought I should ask before I removed the second half of this sentence: "The first half of the season produced mixed results as Toronto struggled towards the .500 mark". What is the significance of .500? If it's not a big deal, please remove the italicised part of the sentence to make it tighter. Cricketgirl 21:05, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi, .500 mark is NBA parlance is an indication of a decent win record. It means winning 50% of the games. It's known, in NBA circles at least, that reaching that mark probably means that the team will qualify for the playoffs. I found it useful to mention that because the Raptors are not a traditionally strong team, but in the 2007-08 season they had a revamped (and improved) roster, yet they were unable to reach the .500 mark with greater ease than expected. Chensiyuan 00:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Captain

Who is their captain? Guy0307 03:55, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Bosh? Ford's also considered a leader of sorts. Chensiyuan 04:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
They don't have a captain, see [10]. Basketballoneten 18:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes it would appear the Raptors website hasn't listed one. But I think by most accepted accounts Bosh is the leader. Chensiyuan (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Then why does it say Anthony Parker? Basketballone10 00:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

You gotta ask the guy who edits the template; I haven't touched it of late heh. Chensiyuan (talk) 01:21, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Raptors Franchise Value

Raptors are worth 373 Million Dollars in 2007 End

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/32/biz_07nba_Toronto-Raptors_321933.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.125.139 (talk) 03:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Updated accordingly thanks. Chensiyuan (talk) 04:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hakeem Olajuwan is a notable former player

Hakeem Olajuwan was a former for the Toronto Raptors. Therefore, he fits the first criteria for being a notable former player. The reason he is notable is that he is the current NBA leader in total blocks in a career, as well as the most recent announced inductee into the Hall of Fame. Chuyiusian, i dont think im screwing up this featured article just because I WANT TO IMPROVE IT BECAUSE IM RIGHT ABOUT THIS! HE IS NOTABLE BECAUSE HE IS ONE OF THE BEST CENTRES OF ALL TIME! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan8800 (talk • contribs) 02:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Get the name right first, and stop whining like a kid if you want people to listen. In any event, of course Hakeem is notable. But he is not notable for being a Raptor; that's not where he achieved his greatness. If we include every "notable" player who's ever played for the Raps, why not include Billups, Camby et al? Chensiyuan (talk) 02:41, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh..oh oh im so sorry. Did I use an A instead of an O? Geez, i must really have no idea what im talking about. Anyways, Hakeem Olajuwon is the current all-time leader in blocked shots and the most recent inductee (first ballot) into the Hall of Fame. I dont care how long he played with the Raps or how good he was with them, his credentials alone make him notable. If Michael Jordan played with the Raptors for ONE DAY he would be on the notable players list. Hakeem is certainly more notable than Alvin Robertson (who is on the list), who, like Olajuwon, played with the Raptors for only one season. Robertson scoring the first points is moot. He is not notable. Hakeem is. I do not like how this argument between us is growing personal. I believe strongly in the Toronto Raptors wikipedia page being as good as possible, and you not liking my tone is no fodder for deleting my edits and calling me names. And as for Camby, Billups -why not? But I would give Olajuwon priority over those two. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan8800 (talk • contribs) 02:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Then find the consensus to include it. You haven't. Don't forget that Hakeem has already been mentioned in the article, so let's not give undue weight. His notability is not the least diminished by the fact that he isn't mentioned in a list in the Raps article. Chensiyuan (talk) 03:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Did you find consensus for not including him? Hakeem Olajuwon is top 5 best centres ever. He is notable regardless of where he achieved his notability. The Raptors organization should be proud to have had him play for them and have him featured prominently on their respective Wikipedia page. You failed to address my comment about Alvin Robertson. I don't think he should be on the list. Please give the "Dream Shake" a chance. He deserves it. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordan8800 (talk • contribs) 03:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course the consensus was sought. This article was co-written by a couple other editors and myself and there was a conscious decision to exclude it. This article was then taken to FAC and its nomination approved of by a dozen other editors. If you look further up this talkpage, you would also get a sense of what should and should not be in the list. All of the foregoing points would answer your query on Robertson, as well. Chensiyuan (talk) 03:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
Just to provide some context, the section used to be named "Not to be forgotten" -- in fact you'd find articles on other teams retaining such a section name. While it's now known as "Notable former players", the intention behind the section remains the same. The whole point is that neutral readers of the article can see immediately the players who have personified the franchise. Chensiyuan (talk) 04:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok. That is fair, I wouldnt say that Olajuwon comes to mind when one thinks about the Raptors. However, I also wouldnt say that Alvin Robertson does. He can be mentioned earlier in the article, but he is certainly not a player who personified the Raptors. Jordan8800 (talk) 17:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, fair enough on both counts. Manderiko (talk) 23:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Captains

For anyone that has an issue with the team captains, on a recent Raptors broadcast it was confirmed that Bosh and Parker are co-captains. However, this is not shown on the Raptors' website. Blackjays1 (talk) 21:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)