Template talk:Top Gear

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[edit] The Stig's role on Top Gear

He's credited as a presenter, so leave it be. --293.xx.xxx.xx 09:31, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem debating matters however I do not appreciate being told to "leave it be". You've done a good job with this template, however the above comment suggests a feeling of ownership. As to the issue at hand, I've copied my comment from Talk:Top Gear:
Yes he's credited as a presenter on the show's end titles, however no definition of "presenter" could extend to what he does. As well as being described as a presenter he's also given crazy introductions on every episode such as "Some say the outline of his left nipple is exactly the same shape as the Nürburgring". In my opinion his description as a presenter is as tongue in cheek as those. Important member of the crew? Yes. Presenter? No. An encyclopedia should contain facts, not be constrained by external conventions etc. Mark83 17:54, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with you on both matters. I don't think requesting that you leave the template as-is represents an ownership claim at all, merely a belief that you're making something that was accurate less so.
Further, remember that Wikipedia's standard for inclusion is verifiability. We don't need to "define" what a presenter is, we merely need to be able to cite a reliable source which refers to him as a presenter. The credits of the programme do exactly that. You're suggesting that the encyclopedia should dismiss a primary source in favour of your opinion that it's tongue-in-cheek?
So, your edit now conflicts with User:293.xx.xxx.xx, User:Blah3 and myself, all of whom have now either reverted your edit or explicitly expressed disagreement. Do you need more editors to dispute your interpretation of the credits before you back down, or is three of us enough to avoid edit-warring? --DeLarge 22:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Your comment about verifiability is a fair one. However using that logic I could edit the Stig article and include every crazy comment that's ever been made in the introduction as fact and cite the episode number. Would you really think that was suitable for an encyclopedia? Mark83 14:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Are you just being facetious for the sake of argument, or do you honestly not know the difference between the content of a light-entertainment show, and the credits at the end? Please see this BBC guideline for further explanation. I, meanwhile, shall revert the template. --DeLarge 19:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, the comment about adding all his introductions was not meant to be taken literally. I have to say though, I'm sure you don't mean to be rude but you're comments could be taken as such; "Do you need more editors to dispute your interpretation of the credits before you back down, or is three of us enough" and "Are you just being facetious ... or do you honestly not know the difference..." could be taken as dimissive and patronising.
A central pillar of WP is assume good faith. I'm assuming that you are only trying to preserve the quality of the project which is why I've taken the time to respond politely to the queries raised about this subject. Likewise you should assume that I am only trying to ensure the information is accurate. I have never denied he is credited as a presenter, I've seen the show many times and didn't need the image above to remind me, my point is is the credit justified? As I said in my previous comment, your point about defining vs. citing is a fair one. However I repeat that Wikipedia should contain facts, not be constrained by external conventions etc. and the fact is that no definition of presenter could be applied to him. Having said all that I don't to intend to remove it again. Mark83 22:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Look, we stick to what BBC has done. Top Gear lists him as a presenter, despite the fact he never speaks. Unless you can produce any other verifiable source that The Stig ain't a presenter, then please present your evidence. Otherwise, your edits are unconstructive. Also, i've never expressed any "ownership" to the template, as other editors have edited it by adding past presenters and deleting my insert of the Top Gear Logo and I never complained or drastically went psycho over the edits. --293.xx.xxx.xx 10:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

He never was, is, or will be a "presenter". It's just a tounge-in-cheek think that he's credited as such at the end of the programme, in the same way that it was tounge-in-cheek when they went to America and all the casts names were Americanised. If we took that a face-value the producer would Andy "dubya" Wilman. The Stig should be removed from the presenters and a new section should be added for "Also Starring" which should also include Top Gear Dog and Sabine Schmidt. Davesmith33 14:47, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Please stop vandalising the template. By all means discuss a proposed change here (explaining your reasons why you think Sabine qualifies as a presenter) but please don't make changes that you know are controversial without gaining some consensus first. DrFrench 18:14, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Sabine isn't a presenter and isn't listed as so. Neither is Top Gear Dog. What are you moaning about? They are both part of the show and so are listed in others. Are you suggesting they are less important than, for example, Jon Bentley???? The Stig is listed (wrongly) as a presenter (like you wanted) so I can't see what the problem is. End of discussion. Davesmith33 18:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Can I just clarify your point of view here? You are allowed to make edits in contravention of the consensus. Anyone else making edits is told to "discuss changes on the talk page" (see the edit summary on the history page for 18:05 UTC 2007-04-01 ). When anyone attempts to discuss it on the talk page you summarily decide that the discussion is at an end. Is that a fair summary? DrFrench 19:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I have added Sabine Schmidt to the infobox as I feel (and others may disagree) that she was/is as much a part of the programme as Jon Bentley was/is. Please discuss. Davesmith33 20:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

No. She was on 2 or 3 episodes. Bentley was a producer for 10 years. Hardly the same. Dave, on Wikipedia it doesn't matter what you feel, you must back things up with evidence. Having Sabine is fancruft. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 22:28, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore, by that standard (appearing on 2 or 3) episodes, we should list every celebrity that has appeared on Top Gear more than once. Obviously that makes little little sense. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 22:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Gamer, the addition of Schmitz is nothing to do with the celebrities as they are covered by the Star/Reasonable priced article, Schmitz is worthy more of a related article section and isn't exactly doing any harm leaving it there. The article is certainly more suitable being in there than Jon Bentley. Davesmith33 10:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Not doing any harm? You need a better explanation than that as your argument is rather vague. She is covered on Top Gear (current format) and List of Top Gear episodes, so if I am understanding your logic correctly, she shouldn't be listed. To add, every other person listed in the template is very closely tied to the show. Sabine is different as she has only been in 2 or 3 episodes. Have you read the Bentley article? You seem to have this crusade against him. He certainly belongs in the template. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 10:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
"She is covered on Top Gear (current format) and List of Top Gear episodes" - so I think we can assume from that, she is a related article. Also, the notability of Schmitz is much higher than that of Bentley. Ask 1,000 TG fans who Schmitz and at least 8 out of 10 would know. I doubt 1 out of 10 would know who Bentley is. There is no crusade against Bentley, we are just using him (and TGD before him) as the yardstick. Davesmith33 11:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
So many other topics are included in both of those articles... it doesn't mean we need to clutter up this template with links to them. The question we should ask is "has Top Gear had a major influence on the person's life?" If the answer is yes, they should be listed, if not, then keep them off of this template. The answer is obviously yes for Clarkson, Tiff, Bentley, etc but can you argue the same for Schmitz? I say no. The numbers you listed provide no source, so they are meaningless. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 10:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

"The question we should ask is "has Top Gear had a major influence on the person's life?" If the answer is yes, they should be listed" - the answer to that question is yes because it made her made famous around the world amongs TG viewers. I see we have the same 3 people removing facts from the encyclopedia and passing them off as genuine edits. Sabine Schmitz deserves to be on that infobox, just because I put her there has nothing to do with it. Davesmith33 14:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd actually qualify the original criterion to "Has TG had a significance in their life?" and "Have they significantly influenced or contributed to TG?". If the former, than put TG in their article, if the latter then add them to the TG article and associated infoboxes. If both, then it gets mentioned everywhere. So Sabine's article should mention TG, but she hasn't had a significant contribution to the program over it 6 years, so it doesn't warrant mention within the scope of TG itself. As a producer Bentley has significantly influenced the program. --Steve (Stephen) talk 23:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that makes much more sense. I shouldn't edit so early in the morning. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 01:14, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Sounds to me as though you're making up the criteria as you go along. "Has TG had a significance in their life?" - the answer to that is also yes anyway as it made her a household name and helped get her the job on German TV. "Have they significantly influenced or contributed to TG?" - again the answer is yes. Bentley contributed to the old version of Top Gear and therefore has less of a place there than Schmitz. I'm reinstating her until the issue is resolved. Also, unlike TGD, we are not just going to take it as read if the 3 most prominent posters here (we know who they are), all disagree with me, that that equals a consensus on the subject. Davesmith33 12:28, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Please lets not start this again. The template is not the place to list everyone who has appeared in a couple of TG features. An appropriate mention in the main TG article (with a wikilink) is sufficient. Please stop being disruptive just because you're unhappy that other people don't agree with you. DrFrench 17:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

French, your aggressive edit-warring is totally uncalled for and is blatant vandalism. Davesmith33 17:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Then please report me using the appropriate channels. I happy with I way I have edited this template in trying to keep it with a WP:NPOV and am more than willing to have my actions subjected to a peer review. In return I will be able to present evidence of the many violations you have made to a variety of policies and guidelines, inluding WP:CIVIL, WP:DISRUPT, WP:CONS and WP:NOT etc. Please drop me a note on my talk page to advise me which route you are going to take, cheers. DrFrench 17:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

This has now gone to arbitration - Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Bullying_and_Victimisation_against_Davesmith33 Davesmith33 18:01, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a note that this arbitration case was rejected and deleted. --Steve (Stephen) talk 23:35, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

...and the decision will be appealed. Davesmith33 08:26, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Presenters

Well, don't shoot me, but shouldn't Clarkson and May also be listed under Original Format Presenters? † DBD 15:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. I'll add them. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 22:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't Jason Dawe be placed in the Current Format Presenters? He is not a current presenter, but he was a presenter in Series 1 of the current format. Rascalb 04:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TG Dog

Shouldn't Top Gear Dog also be added, seeing as she was introduced as quote, "a new presenter". Davesmith33 22:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No. TDG has been done to death elsewhere. Consensus is to exclude it. DrFrench 22:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of John Bentley is 'fancruft'?

Well User:Davesmith33 thinks so in his edit here. If this is so, why not come here and make the case? Why make a contentions edit that you know will be reverted unless it is to provoke another edit war? DrFrench 19:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

If Sabine Schmitz and Top Gear Dog are classed as fancruft in the eyes of DrFrench, then Jon Bentley can certainly be included as Cruft as well. Davesmith33 17:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It has been pointed out to you on more than one occasion (and not just by me) that there is a huge difference between the person who was the producer and editor of the programme for more than a decade (the person who is credited with hiring Jeremy Clarkson) and someone who has appeared in a couple of features across two episodes. Surely you can see that? Your constant attempts to disrupt this and other pages will simply lead to you receiving more and longer bans from editing. It's sad that you choose to be disruptive, but so be it. DrFrench 20:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Colors, The Colors!!

AHHHH!! The new colors hurt my eyes!! Revert it back to Green or some other soothing color, please!! --293.xx.xxx.xx 08:06, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Done, as requested. What do other people feel about the colours? DrFrench 08:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Overall, I like the original color scheme better. The green feels a little out of place though. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 08:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
How about using the same shade of blue as the infobox? A bit of consistency? DrFrench 08:57, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that looks quite good. --PS2pcGAMER (talk) 09:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, the reason I used blue is because that it's kind of new Top Gear's (well, at least before S8) "colour"... Based really on the blue tinge to the logo. But whatever, I'm always adding colour to templates only to have boring reversions. Par for the course, lol. † DBD 11:30, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
Fair doos - it's often good 'be bold'. But if you find your changes get reverted a lot, why not try something different? Create a sandbox on your user page, then post to the template talk page asking people to visit your sandbox and comment on what they think before making the changes. That approach has worked for me elsewhere. Good luck! DrFrench 12:41, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template Orientation

The previous version of the template was much more organized [1] Who cares about vertical space? I've seen templates far longer than this one. The way it is now, the information is mushed together, while before there were breaks between the various sections, which helped organized the sections. El Greco(talk) 16:05, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

My recent edit was just going with the flow, so I guess I don't mind if the format is reverted. The current format is more straightforward, though, regardless of vertical space. Anyone else? Sardanaphalus (talk) 20:17, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyone else? Going once..... El Greco(talk) 01:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Spin offs

I've moved the Top Gear of the Pops and Top Ground Gear Force from the spin-off section to the see also section. This is becasue they're not spin-offs in the sense that most people would think of - just one-off specials for a charity event. DrFrench (talk) 18:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)