Talk:Tonya Harding

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is part of WikiProject Figure Skating, a WikiProject dedicated to improving coverage of figure skating-related articles on Wikipedia.
Figure Skating Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.)
High This article has been rated as High-priority on the project's priority scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
This article is supported by the Sports and games work group.
News This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. The citation is in:
Oregon Portal
This page is part of WikiProject Oregon, a WikiProject dedicated to articles related to the U.S. state of Oregon.
To participate: join (or just read up) at the project page, or contribute to the project discussion.
PSU stuff & Applegate Trail are the current Collaborations of the week.
B This page is rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High This article is rated as High-importance on the importance scale.


Contents

[edit] Music Career

Am I crazy or did Harding briefly attempt a singing career? I seem to remember her forming a band called the Golden Blades, or something to that affect. --139.78.233.194 22:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Apparently, that was something like a one-off deal. See this link for info. -Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 05:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Ironically, she wouldn't "sing" for the prosecutor, and maintains to this day she had no earthly idea that Nancy Kerrigan was going to get whacked. Wahkeenah 05:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, she attempted a singing career. Members of her fanclub, the people she eventually began to refer to as her "adopted parents," got her involved in their group. She performed once at the "Last Chance Summer Dance" in Portland (Oregon). They were booed off the stage as people threw bottles at them. Hilarious. -- Andrew Parodi 21:12, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Someone plz add South Park (Season 7 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_Paper_%28South_Park_episode%29) reference --Paulpro 16:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Did her entire family have asthma?

The summary at the beginning of the article makes it sound like her entire family had asthma. Was that intentional, or just a case of a misplaced modifier?

After a tough childhood in an unstable lower-class family, plagued by asthma, she went on to win the U.S. Figure Skating Championships twice and place second in the 1991 World Championships.

Aesculapius75 14:45, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Allegedly

Why does it say "allegedly"? Wasn't she convicted because she confessed? AxelBoldt

She confessed to hindering the investigation, but has always maintained that she wasn't involved in the conspiracy. (The conspirators, however, said otherwise. :-) As part of her plea bargain, the authorities agreed not to prosecute her further. So she was guilty, yes, but we can't say she was guilty of the conspiracy/attack without crossing a defamatory line. - Rootbeer 2002-04-07
I see, thanks. Why not add this to the main page? Not much else interesting to say about here anyway... :-) AxelBoldt

[edit] porn description

I don't think a description of the porn movie adds anything to the article. It does not "help explain reactions" to the event. It's obvious that she would be "fully nude". Certainly it is not appropriate to add an oral sex link, as this is an biographical article about a person most notable as a figure skater. I'm not a prude; I simply believe that we don't need porn descriptions. Wiki is not a porn site. Fang Aili 16:35, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

The description doesn't add anything to the article because it applies to 99.999% of all pornographic movies out there. Guess what a pornographic movie is? The vast majority of the time, it's a movie of a woman fully nude (with the possible exception of high-heeled shoes) having sex, including oral sex, with a man. --Carnildo 18:24, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Exactly. Fang Aili 18:31, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Psychology

Someone with a psych degree needs to step in here. There is a certain type of personality that seems to adopt a "me against the world" attitude, and consequently seems to attract trouble like an electronmagnet. Tonya could be the poster child for that syndrome. I just don't know how to label it. "Paranoid" and "narcissistic" seem inadequate to cover it. Wahkeenah 12:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that making psychological diagnoses of celebrities is part of what Wikipedia is about. - AdelaMae (talk - contribs) 16:43, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think it's usually called "self-defeatism."66.108.4.183 23:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] Skate blades

Something should probably be mentioned about the distinctive gold-coloured blades on her skates. -Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 05:36, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unverified tag

All the verification for the article is in the External link articles, therefore, I made the section into a References section. Still up to someone to link them into the appropriate places. Ansell 12:29, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Competition table

I added the competition table, though it's incomplete. I was unable to find sources for the U.S. Nationals, or Worlds results beyond the medal finishers. --Fang Aili talk 14:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I got rid of a lot of the pictures in the article. They were cluttering it and were of poor quality. I don't think they contributed anything to the article. The Time cover is significant, as is the triple axle, but pictures of her having trouble with her costume? Come on. --24.163.161.47 01:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I've restored the pictures for now. Her crying to the referee at the Olympics, in particular, is one of the most famous incidents in her career and an image that is strongly associated with her in popular culture. The other photos serve as references to document the other incidents and point out that her boot lace problem at the Olympics was like deja vu all over again. (It's really weird, in particular, to compare the TV coverage of the loose blade incident at the previous fall's Skate America to that of the Olympic boot lace incident.) If the consensus of other people is that the pictures are not relevant to documenting Harding's career, then of course they can be deleted. Just don't think they should be trashed because one person doesn't see the point of them. Dr.frog 02:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I think they're relevant and should stay. --Fang Aili talk 13:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree. While I think the pictures are of low quality, they're not libelous or defamatory; they're depictions of well-known events in Harding's life. --Nonstopdrivel 23:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
Brennan's Comments

According to Christine Brennan, Tonya Harding had more raw jumping talent than anyone in the world and perhaps anyone to ever live. Its mind boggling to see such words spent on a genetic parasite like Tonya Harding.

[edit] Kerrigan and Yamaguchi

Interesting the size of this article is bigger than Yamaguchi and Kerrigan put together.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 1more (talk • contribs) 07:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Michael G. Halle image

In regards to this deletion with the comment (Image with fan links back to fan's website for photography business in violation of wikipedia guidelines. Photo its I.E.elf is clearly self promoting. Poster also wents self not to be cropped.)

It is quite right that the image with Michael Halle is not ideal because it has Halle in it, and he doesn't have much to do with Harding; however, other than that, it is a good depiction of Harding at roughly the time she gained her fame as a skater, and it is the best we can do. The image is free, and the article is far better with a picture of Harding than without it. If and when we can find a better image that only has Harding in it, we will use it. Until then, we should use the best we can.

However, it is completely incorrect that "links back to fan's website for photography business in violation of wikipedia guidelines." That's categorically wrong, linking back to the author is the whole idea behind the free content with attribution licenses we use. We do our best to link back to the author with each and every image we have, the same way we try to link to the website of every news article we use, of every book we use, and so forth. Read our article on Attribution (copyright): "Attribution is often considered the most basic of requirements made by a license, as it allows an author to accumulate a positive reputation that partially repays their work and prevents others from claiming fraudulently to have produced the work. It is also regarded a decent sign of respect to acknowledge the creator and thus give him/her credit for the work."

--AnonEMouse (squeak) 23:03, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


The name in the caption is totally irrelevant and the absurd links back to this man's business website are a clear violation of wikipedia policy and self promoting. If the picture remains, his name should be removed as well as all links on the image page that link to his business. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.62.238.113 (talk) 20:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

please note related discussion, late December 2007, on User talk:AnonEMouse. -Pete (talk) 20:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Why don't we just crop the man out of the image? It's still within fair use, and happens all the time in other Wikipedia bios. I'm not one to ramble on about self-promotion and other stuff, but he is irrelevant to the subject at hand. What we want is an image of Harding. VanTucky talk 22:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
VanTucky, check the discussion linked above. (Maybe we should just copy it over here.) Long story short, the photographer requested specifically that the photo NOT be cropped, even though the license technically permits it. That request was made of AnonEMouse, I'm going to email the photographer (right now, actually) and ask him to reconsider, but out of respect for Anon's efforts it's probably best to take it slow and get it right. If you think removing the image entirely from the article in the meantime would be best, I'm fine with that. -Pete (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
So, I just had a quick email exchange with the owner of the photo, which I'll paste below. Friendly fellow, but adamant that he does not want the photo cropped. So, this presents an interesting choice: do we go by the "letter" of the license, or the "spirit"of the communications with the owner? It seems the best answer is to honor the owner's wishes; that's certainly the best way to not biting the newcomers, and representing Wikipedia in a positive way to the world at large. So, I was probably in error in my initial cropping. However, if that's how we're going to treat it, then we're treating the image as non-free. If we cannot modify the image to suit the encyclopedia, whether due to legal restrictions or to our own desire to be friendly, then I would contend that the image does not belong on the Wikimedia servers, and should be deleted. Thoughts? -Pete (talk) 00:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

(email exchange quoted below)

“ Hi Michael,

I'm a regular contributor to Wikipedia. I ran across your photo on the Tonya Harding article. I see that, while the license you released it under allows further modification (i.e. cropping), you have requested that the photo not be cropped.

I'm wondering if I can prevail upon you to change your mind. The Tonya Harding article really should have a good photo of her, but there does not appear to be much in the way of free photos available. But of course, it's not very encyclopedic to have a photo at the top of the article with a random person (no offense intended, I feel pretty random myself sometimes!) (Here's a link to the version I'd like to use on the article: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/d/da/20071227171728%21Michael_G._Halle_and_Tonya_Harding.jpg )

I don't see any problem with your request to have the image link back to your blog.

If you feel strongly about the photo not being cropped, I'd urge you to change the license to disallow it; this sort of "gray area" between technical permission and general preferences can be kind of hard on a volunteer-driven web site, where everybody has their own interpretation.

If we need to, I'm sure it will be possible to find a photo that we can use as fair use, or perhaps another free one. So, I would be happiest if you would allow a basic crop to the photo, but if that's simply not acceptable to you, I'm willing to look for another photo.

Please note, though, that I'm expressing only my own opinion; since the license published with the image does allow modification, it's possible that another editor will come along and crop anyway. Just so that's clear; I can't make a commitment on behalf of the whole project.

All that said, it's a fun story, I enjoyed reading about it on your blog!

Best, Pete

Michael G. Halle to Pete

Pete,

Thanks for the thoughtful email. I do not want the photo cropped. If you feel a burning need to do so-which you seem to- please let me know asap so you can begin your search for another.

Cheers,

Michael

 ”
I say crop away. Looks like an attempt at self promotion, if the license allows cropping, that is the original uploader's problem for not reading the license carefully. I don't see any harm in removing someone from an image, if it turns into a big uproar (which it wont) then we can do away with the image entirely as it stands it is highly encyclopedic and takes away more from the article then it adds. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 00:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Having had the contact I did with the photo's owner, I feel some responsibility to represent his desire, and I will not be cropping the photo. I don't think it's out of bounds for somebody else to do it if they think that's the best course, but I won't be doing it. I would be happy to nominate the photo for deletion, and summarize the situation in the nomination. It will be unfortunate if we're unable to use such a high quality shot of Harding in the article, but I fully agree with Daniel: in its uncropped state, it is more damaging than beneficial to the article. -Pete (talk) 01:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
One other point: I don't think the owner's motives are relevant to the discussion at hand. Whether self-promotional or otherwise. We don't know what his motives are, and they really don't matter to this decision; the only issues, as far as I'm concerned, are "what's best for the encyclopedia's content" and "what's best for public perception of the encyclopedia as an organization." -Pete (talk) 01:38, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I just heard back from Michael, he has changed the license to "no derivative works." While I understand that it's still technically possible to use/crop the photo under the original license, I think that course is inadvisable. Photo licensing is a complicated subject, and I would prefer to see Wikipedia, as a community, take the high ground and show some compassion for a simple mistake. I think the photo shouldb be treated as non-free, removed from the servers. I may try to contact Harding to see if we can get a shot of her released under a free license. -Pete (talk) 02:00, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Moral high ground has nothing to do with it. I have no sympathy for someone who isn't smart enough to understand what their photo license does and doesn't allow. If he didn't want it modified, then he should have specified. If my memory is correct, there is no license, not even fair use, that prohibits cropping. To be honest Pete, we probably could've cropped it and there would be no fuss if people hadn't gone about asking the permission of the photographer. When people release their photos with a license that permits modification, as he did, then it is harmful to the project to go about putting it into their heads that they have a say. Once you release an image to the public, then that's that. You can't change your mind because you object to how it's used. That totally defeats the purpose of free licensing, don't you think? Anyway, I agree with you that we should try and get a real free image of Harding. She would probably jump at it, considering she's lately been selling signed photos for $10. Search The Columbian's issue from today (Thursday). If you like Pete, I would be willing to go out to Yacolt where she lives or meet her in Vancouver, as I'm a Clark County boy. VanTucky talk 03:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Image nominated for deletion here: commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Michael G. Halle and Tonya Harding.jpg

VanTucky, I don't see "free licensing" as the overriding concern here. You and I as individuals care a lot about a vibrant commons, but that is not the unifying principle of this project. We're trying to build an encyclopedia, and we're trying to develop a community around that project. I think we, as a group, have a unique opportunity. It's unlikely that anybody else took advantage of the image's CC-by-SA license during the brief time that it was available; if that's the case, then it is no longer available under that license anywhere but on the Wikimedia servers. It is clear that the owner never intended that license, and was in error by selecting it to begin with; the license was never an accurate reflection of his desires regarding his work. So, we are in the unique opportunity to allow a mistake to be just that -- just a mistake. To insist on the letter of the license strikes me as opportunistic in a way that would reflect very poorly on our project. -Pete (talk) 04:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

And on fair use: we could certainly crop it and use it under fair use, which is preferable to keeping it in its CC-by-SA state. Used under fair use, we would not be perpetuating this erroneous license. -Pete (talk) 04:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right Pete, I just get pissed off when we have to take time out to get jerked around by people who don't understand what a license they chose entails. VanTucky talk 21:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Looks like we should delete it. :-( I'm the original uploader, and the person who asked Mr. Halle for the image, and it seems he didn't mean to put it under a free editing license, and we shouldn't trap him into it. Unfortunately, we can't crop and use it under fair use, our Wikipedia:Fair use policy is much stricter than just fair use law, we can't use a fair use image just to show what someone looks like, or looked like, it needs to be a unique and unreproducible image important in itself, and surely we can't claim that there aren't any other photographs anywhere in the world of Ms. Harding looking much like that. So it goes. :-( --AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Vantucky, I really don't feel jerked around…it was my choice to communicate with Mr. Halle, and AnonEMous's choice before me. And I don't regard claiming copyright as an inherently selfish act; the guy took the photo, and if he doesn't want to share it, so be it. AnonEMous, I'm very disappointed to hear you see this as a net negative. I see it differently: we helped the image owner do what he wanted to with his property, and helped him learn something; and we got what I consider a very un-encyclopedic image off the top of a prominent article. (I understand you disagree on that, and I do think the Tonya part is excellent, but I think having some thumbs-up wiseguy on the top of a biography of someone else is very problematic.) I applaud your attempts to get this image into Wikipedia, and share your regret that it didn't work out. I do think it's important to have a photo of Harding, and will follow up on that, maybe with Steven's help. I may have been a bit of a bull in a china shop on this issue, and I regret that too; I may have moved too quickly to proposing deletion on commons. Although I'm satisfied with the result, I do regret that you are disappointed with the outcome and/or process. If it's any consolation, I will be keeping this in mind if I encounter similar situations in the future. -Pete (talk) 23:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Pete, I wasn't saying you felt anything. I was speaking of the collective we of the project. I think it's a pain in the behind having to deal with people who flip-flop on photo licensing decisions. That doesn't have anything to do with whether they have the right to make copyright choices or not, or whether it's "selfish". More importantly, I don't think you've been "a bull in a china shop" on this. Assertive and abrasive are not the same thing. VanTucky talk 23:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tanya Harding - Nancy Kerrigan Saga

Tanya and Nancy the Rock Opera opened in Portland, Oregon Thursday, February 21, 2008. There were actors playing the main roles, and Tanya Harding was in the audience. Tanya, in an interivew, said "Wow, did my life really look that bad? ... but I'm thinking, 'Wow, they did a really great job.'" Blue389 (talk) 15:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Photos of Tonya Harding

I just wanted to mention that I was living in Portland during the whole Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan scandal, and I happened to take a few pictures of Tonya that may perhaps be of use to this article. I'm not sure if other editors will like them or feel they were be useful, and I'm not sure where they would be of best use, so I'll just give thumb nails here and allow others to decide whether these belong in the article or not. (I have a few more pictures which I will scan and upload later.) -- Andrew Parodi (talk) 22:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Practice session at Clackamas Town Center in preparation for the 1994 Winter Olympics

Practice session, close-up

Practice session, landing axle

World media gathered to film Tonya's practice

Tonya Harding returning from Norway after the Olympics

Elaine Stamm, president of the Tonya Harding Fan Club, speaks with reporters at Portland Airport
A heads-up. I inserted a crop of one of the above pictures into the introductory paragraphs. I think it's a better picture than the other picture, and more historically important because it depicts Tonya Harding at the peak of her fame and notoriety. If anyone else removes this picture, I won't contest it, however. I'm just trying to help. Thanks. -- Andrew Parodi (talk) 05:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)