Talk:Tongva

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good written start, needs formatting, revision, map, more refs --Skookum1 (11 May 06)

  • Is more detailed now, but lacks many citations --Miskwito 21:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Story board

Should we mention Toypurina, the 24-year old Tongva shaman (medicine-woman) who in 1785 led an unsuccessful revolt against the Spanish at the San Gabriel Mission? It is an important episode in the history of Native resistance to colonization.Rockero

Seeing as the Tongva history we have jumps from the 1500s to 1990s, there are literally hundreds of years of history missing. The episode you mention would definitely be welcome, as well as any others in the Tongvas' history. It's a story that is completely unknown to most Americans (or Angelinos, for that matter). Badagnani 02:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
I might suggest that if these isolated stories are told in the article, but have no specific relevance to the historical continuum, that they be put under a subtitle and then each story subsequently sub-subtitled. Would make for interesting reading AND these should be well bibliographed or referenced. Magi Media 13:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Magi Media

[edit] Tongva language

Is their language extinct? Several internet links state that it is. I've assumed that it is extinct, in this article and in Tongva language. Alexander 007 13:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

No one speaks it as their birth language, but it exists in a reconstructed form, and is used ceremonially by some Tongva (I'll look up the URL of our streaming video of the BioTrek grand opening, where Mark Acuña, the Cultural Liaison of the Tongva/Gabrielino Tribal Council, gave a short speech in Tongva). I also changed the past tense to present in that article--the Tongva still exist.--Curtis Clark 15:02, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Oops. I actually knew that they were still around as a people, but I overlooked that in my sentence :). Alexander 007 15:07, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

EXCELLENT QUESTION!! I have it on good authority from a local student of the Southwest cultures that the last Tongva-speaking descendant, a woman, has past away --- BUT not before she left a glossary with the people at the Southwest Museum. These folks do special ceremonies with excerpts from the language, but for all intents and purposes, the language is dead. The descendants of the Gabrielenos do still exist even though they were given the brand of "extinction" since 1900. It seemed to be politically expedient to no longer recognize them as a blood strain of people. This has been reversed by professed descendants. Magi Media 03:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)Magi Media.

"Blood strain" as applied by outsiders is generally regarded to be racist, although individual Nations can be very picky about tribal membership. There are people, most with at least some demonstrated Tongva ancestry, who are endeavoring to reclaim the Tongva language. I think it is POV to call any language "dead"; the NPOV approach is to explain where it stands in terms of birth speakers, recorded speech, written works, written vocabulary, etc.--Curtis Clark 05:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Latin has been "dead" for over 1200 years and yet is still taught and used. Let's not be premature to call the Tongva language or tribe "dead". 500 languages were spoken in California 200 years ago. We should note the extent of any of them are still used. Language reclamation efforts are certainly notable. -Will Beback 06:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Let me back up here for a second

For 1: The expression "blood line" --- racist or racial? I am speaking endearingly of a nation of people who walked this part of the planet before we did. But, OK, I am used to the need for PC language the same way we get it in local politics. So don't anybody get me wrong. In the Arroyo Seco along side Altadena we had the Hahamog-na tribe which has captured my attention and admiration for a lost nation of people looking not too far back. And in Pasasdena we had the Sistikig-na, and in Arcadia we had the Aleupking-na with no tribute to their name applied to a modern day location. The Anecdote always was: "AZUSA, everything from A to Z in the USA." Well, joke's on us, it was named for Chief Azuksag-na. And when I read (in history) that the Gabrielenos had become extinct due to the effects of "Old World diseases," I bought it. But when I found out that someone with a percentage of Gabrieleno in them had come forward to refute such a claim, I applauded it. So if there is some other euphonious expression to be used in place of that one, then fill in the blank. Now let's move on.

Wanted Dead or Alive

For 2: It is possible that the definition of "dead language" has taken a shift to satisfy a group of history revisionists. But let me tell you, I speak five languages: English, French, German, Spanish and Vietnamese. These are all languages used by cultures or nationalities as a primary means of communication with each other. They are subject to evolution, or "corruption," in spellings, pronunciations and colloquialisms. The only group that uses Latin is the Roman Catholic Church, and at that, only an elite few. As a Catholic myself, I have studied Latin, and as an altar boy have even used it, but I hardly consider myself a part of a nation or culture that communicates with other Catholics by it. Yet in a discussion with one of my former Pastors, a man from the old school of Latin, we did agree that Latin has in a way "corrupted" into other languages, namely, Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese, etc. So in that context, you might not consider Latin "dead." Where does that leave Tongva? Is it currently used by a nation or culture of people as a primary communication? Or has it evolved into another language? For all intents and purposes, it's a dead language.

Gabrieleno and Tongva

Lastly, I would like to suggest that the title of the article be moved to Gabrieleno/Tongva. This mostly for the benefit of our Wikipedia readers. When I punched in Gabrieleno or variants of the spelling, I either ended up in search hell, or on the Tongva page which looked like a misdirect. As of 1994 California has recognized the Gabrieleno/Tongva Nation, and in 2001 a California Congresswoman proposed a bill that would give national recognition to the Gabrieleno/Tongva Nation. It has been suggested that the Tongva people might prefer the use of their name, and rightfully so. Before I ever heard of Tongva, I either knew the individual tribe names or the collective expression Gabrieleno. So for the benefit of our readers who may be approaching the subject the same way that I have, we might should not hide the Gabrieleno name behind a bunch of redirects AND properly stress the etymologies of each.
Thank you each and every for your attention Magi Media 06:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)Magi Media
Tongva seems fine to me; the redirects (including Gabrieleno) do seem to be operational; which alternate name is not working for you? The Spanish names are discussed in the article. Badagnani 07:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I mentioned "blood strain" in the context of terms such as "mulatto", "quadroon", and "octoroon" used to refer to blacks in the South. I was not trying to be PC; those terms are widely regarded as racist, since people with only a small proportion of "Negro blood" were regarded as black for the purposes of segregation.
And I've heard it where Native Americans seek to have as little as 1/16 portion to be included. I was not using the expression to keep from selling them whiskey or rifles.
  • Plant taxonomists also communicate to some extent in Latin; descriptions of new taxa of plants must still be written in Latin. At any rate, to fail to distinguish between, say, Minoan and Tongva by lumping them both as "dead" is simply imprecise. To quote Monty Python, "I'm feeling better now. I think I'll go for a walk."
I fail to see the parallel of, say, the Pope's encyclical Humanae Vitae (1968) and the latest thing I've read in Tongva. And I have a hard time considering that excerpts or language fragments constitute a live language. Reclaiming the language is an interesting project, and how that is to be derived will be interesting. But does the language (any language) have a heart beat, or is it just being resuscitated? We just have different POVs on what a "dead language" is. To quote Monty Python: "This is not an argument, it's a contradiction! -No, it's not! -It is! -It's not!"
  • Fixed (Someone else started the process, and I finished it).--Curtis Clark 07:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
There is even an external link at the bottom of the article that says Gabrieleno/Tongva Tribal Council Web Site. Magi Media 14:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)Magi Media
I think you're right about the redirect being confusing, especially for unfamiliar or first-time readers of Wikipedia. However, I think the way to fix this is to mention the long-standing Spanish name in the lead sentence, using bold text to identify it as an article subject. The explanation of the origin of that name could stay at the end of the lead paragraph where it is now. This way, the words "Tongva" and "Gabrielino" can both be in bold at the beginning of the article, but the article can keep what I can only assume is the name preferred by the tribe itself. Mike Dillon 03:46, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 8,000 year old milling site

I don't think the 8,000 year old milling site described in the paragraph at the end of the article is Tongva. From what I understand, the Tongva (and other related Shoshonean/Uto-Aztecan peoples) came into southern California a couple of thousand years ago, and that there were several waves of indigenous peoples of other languages groups inhabiting the area before that. A map in the "California Indians" room of the Southwest Museum shows these migrations, and also the chronology at the base of the Watts Towers has a similar description. So I don't know why the archaeologists were quoted as saying that the site was Tongva, unless the Tongva are the only pre-European people they know of who lived in the area. Does anybody have further information about this? Badagnani 05:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

You may be right, I have heard similar info. There were certainly groups who lived here previously, including 13,000 year-old Arlington Springs Woman out on Santa Rosa Island, California. However until we get a source identifying it otherwise we can leave it here. -Will Beback 05:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] High importance

I agree with User:Anlace that this article should be of High importance on WikiProject Southern California, as it is about the indigenous people of the Los Angeles region. Badagnani 21:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree strongly. The Tongva and their relatives to the South, the Juaneño, were the people who were here when the Europeans first arrived. JimCubb 00:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] May want to see the city of Irvine, CA's official website History of the City

Irvine, CA's official website History of the City states, Archeological research establishes prehistoric man in the Irvine area at least 12,000 years ago, possibly even 18,000 years ago. And, Gabrielino Indians moved into the Irvine area 2,000 years ago, establishing dozens of villages. One village was located near the present San Joaquin marsh and another near the San Joaquin golf course.

Somebody may want to include this in this article. Ronbo76 06:31, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent history

It appears that recent history is leading to a battle for publicity, which is stretching into Wikipedia. I question the NPOV of that section. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.212.50.137 (talk • contribs)

If there is a dispute between two rival groups, and it is sourced, it appears notable and suitable for inclusion. I don't see what the POV would be. Badagnani (talk) 06:03, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
The sources are no longer available, and as such I question their inclusion in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.212.50.137 (talk) 06:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)