Talk:Tongass National Forest

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[edit] Origin of word "Tongass"

What is the etymological origin of the word "Tongass"? Badagnani 06:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Looks like it derives from the name of a Tlingit clan near Ketchikan; the name seems to be generally given as Taantakwaan in Teh Intarweb at large, but a check on that from someone with more direct knowledge would probably be A Good Thing. At that, the same goes for whether it's a "clan" or a "tribe" with component clans of its own. I'm seeing both, and have no idea which is more correct... —Zero Gravitas 06:56, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I just got this email from the public relations/Web person at the Tongass National Forest:
Subject: Re: Question
From: "Merrily J Jones"
Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:05:30 -0800
I'm afraid we don't have a good comprehensive history of the Tongass to post on the Web. However, we do know that the forest was named for the Tongass tribe, a group of Tlingits who lived near Ketchikan. There's no agreement on what the word actually means, and we defer to the Natives themselves for any interpretation of their names. The Website for the Central Council of the Tlingit and Haida Indian Tribes of Alaska is at http://www.ccthita.org/.
Merrily J. Jones, Public Affairs Specialist/Web manager
Tongass National Forest - Petersburg --Badagnani 20:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I am unsure of the meaning and source of the name in Tlingit, but I’ve asked the community for some definitions. The khwáan or “regional people” of the Ketchikan-Saxman area are called the Taanta Khwáan (“sea lion people”). The Tsimshian IIRC call them Tamgas, which may be where the name comes from.
I think the article on Tlingit explains the khwáan concept, but in short it’s a regional grouping of Tlingit people based on their home towns, separate from their clan affiliations. It’s become somewhat synonymous with the groupings formed as ANCSA village corporations in the 1970s. — Jéioosh 01:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Endangered Species and Forest Health

I have to take issue with the logic of this statement:

"The health of the forest is evident in that there are no threatened or endangered species to be found in the forest or the streams."

Endangered and threatened species are generally those which are most sensitive to changes in their habitat, and are habitually found exclusively in high-value habitat. If anything, absence of indigenous endangered species would indicate poor ecosystem health.

I think what the writer meant to communicate was that the forest's health can be implied from the fact that none of its indiginous species are on the threatened or endangered list. But even this statement has logical flaws.

A better statement would be "The forest's healthy flora and fauna populations attest to the health of the ecosystem."

--Virginia Ryan 22:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think most people know that. If you have expertise in this subject and know this to be true, you should fix it. But a brief explanation of what you said here might be in order. It might be good to find out why the original editor wrote what they did, in reference to the actual situation as regards endangered species on the ground there. The statement may not have been accurate in the first place, or maybe the situation has changed since that text was written. Maybe you could check with people at the Tongass to see what they have to say about the current situation regarding endangered species there as well. Badagnani 23:04, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the sentence, since it is untrue. The marbled murrelet, for one, is an endangered species that lives in the Tongass. There are also other threatened species that have been proposed to be listed, such as the alexander archepelago wolf. AlaskaTrekker 18:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Link?

This is a reference, but as I wrote it and it's from my organization, I'm not sure I'm allowed to add it. Feel free to remove from the list if you feel it is not a good reference. AlaskaTrekker 18:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I moved this section down to the bottom to be chronological, as is standard for talk pages. As to the material in the Logging section and the reference: the section is very strongly stated, using words such as "conspired" and "recalcitrant", which, without very strong reference support, violate neutral point of view. Given that this is controversial material, it's particularly important to avoid a conflict of interest and to use reliable sources. If this content can be more directly referenced to the sources used in Temperate Rainforests of the North Pacific Coast, it would probably be OK, as long as those references are strong enough to support contentions like "conspired".
A more minor issue is that the new material is verbatim from the current reference, which is copyrighted. That will look strange to anyone looking at this, and indeed it is strange, since the source in question doesn't have an NPOV policy.
So I think the section needs to be edited and differently cited. Not sure if I'm going to do it myself. -- Spireguy 21:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Reference for conspiracy by KPC and APC is a lengthy description of a court case eventually finding them guilty of said conspiracy, described at length in this book: Tongass: Pulp Politics And The Fight For The Alaska Rain Forest - Kathie Durbin, 1999

If someone has an online reference for that info, it could be used instead AlaskaTrekker 00:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs cleanup

the following "international border runs along the crest of the Boundary Ranges of the Coast Mountains (see Alaska boundary dispute)." is out of place. I think they are trying to say that the Tongass National Park is the only national park on an international border.

Also, the comment that 70,000 some people require the Tongass for survival is misleading, as they are several small towns (e.g. Juneau) that survive more from tourism and sea trade than subsisting off of the bounty of the Tongass. --—Preceding unsigned comment added by Amundsonsc (talk • contribs)

I have to take issue with a couple of statements here: first of all -- the Tongass is a National Forest, not a national park. The two are vastly different, with widely divergent legal bases and standing. The 70,000 plus people who live here -- and I am one -- depend on the Tongass National Forest for our livelihoods in many ways. I suspect few of those tourists would come here, save for the wildlife, cultural history, scenic beauty, and other attributes of the Forest -- which comprises about 85% of the land base between Dixon Entrance and Yakutat. You don't have to be picking berries, catching salmon or hunting deer to be dependent on the Forest -- though many of us do those things as well.
The "catastrophic effects" of timber harvest are dramatically overstated in this writeup and most others you will read. About 500,000 acres of the 17 million have been harvested. Nearly all of it has regenerated, and many of the second-growth stands from logging 40 or 50 years ago are producing commercial-sized logs again.
Be very careful what you read, and consider the motivations of those who write it. In southeast Alaska, we have become many people's hobby...Muledeer 22:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)muledeer
No offense, but why don't you come up with some evidence to support your claims, and help us to improve the article? Making unsubstantiated claims and stating opinion in the talk section is not constructive.Athene cunicularia 23:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


Am certainly pleased that "nearly all" of the 500,000 acres that have been "harvested" have been regenerated. Whew. And I thought half of the old growth forest had been cut down. Good to hear that the 70,000 people there can continue to rely on the National Forest for their livelihood. Or-- let's certainly hope so. An improved "history" section could explain how they got there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.209.45.63 (talk) 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)