Talk:Tong (organization)

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And undone. See below. hateless 23:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This article should be split into one about the secret societies, and another for the snurnames. --Yuje 16:32, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Done.--Yuje 15:23, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Should "tong" and "triad" be capitalized in these articles? That seems wrong to me. -grant 15:56, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Seems it shouldn't to me, since they're both generic terms. I've down-cased them. hateless 18:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Tongs are not gangs

From the San Francisco Chronicle:

"With any organization, you have a certain percentage of people who may go sideways on you and become organized into criminal activity," said Nelson Lowe, a senior FBI agent and expert in Asian organized crime.
"Although they are associated with a tong, they are not representative of what a tong stands for." [1]

And from my own research from when I was in college, tongs should be considered mutual protection first, organized criminal activity second, especially for the modern tongs. They aren't the mob, they don't flaunt the law as a part of their mission statement, but they do go astray. I've edited out as much of the bias as I can from the first paragraph, although I think we need a new title, I can't think of a good succinct one right now. "Tong (clandestine society)" doesn't work for me right now... hateless 18:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

How about "Tong (Chinese social organization)"? airphloo 18:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
"Tong (Chinese mutual protection societies)" Vlag (talk) 13:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Vlag

[edit] Tongs are far from dead

Why does it say the tongs stopped really running their businesses? Chinese people have been immigrating to the U.S. for a long time and still are, and there is still tongs running Chinatowns all over the U.S. and Canada. There can be a lot written about the leaders of powerful tongs in San Francisco, New York, and Toronto.

[edit] Re: Tongs

Here in San Francisco, tongs are still around. But have pretty much gone from criminal organizations to philanthropic organzations and organizations assisting newly arriving Chinese immigrants.


I have changed the heading from 'Scottish Tongs' to 'Glasgow Tongs' as the Tongs only operate in the Glasgow area

_______________________________________________________________________________________ It should also be noted that Tongs are not simply "immigrant organizations." They have historically existed in China for several hundred years (the famed Boxers were a non-criminal tong). A good resource from the U.S. State Department: http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/Archive_Index/Chinese_Criminal_Enterprises.html

I think this page should stay as is. I don't believe that the word "tong", especially in its English-transliterated-from-Cantonese form, is a good descriptor for all Chinese secret societies. Tongs and triads are descended from Tiandihui, all of which has their own articles. An article about Chinese secret societies in general may be warranted. hateless 02:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glasgow Tongs

Can I suggest the Glasgow Tongs section should be split off into a separate entry as these teenage Glasgow street gangs have nothing to do with Chinese Tongs racially, historically, organisationally or socially - they just adopted the word 'Tongs' presumably because it sounded good. User:Thejohnfleming 10:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the section instead. The section wasn't well sourced anyway and a new page doesn't seem warranted for something without any. hateless 02:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Having a bunch of knackers or neds or whatever you call them in Scotland, take the name of 'tongs' for their 'organizations' is just the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. How do they even deserve a Wikipedia article?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.43.146.240 (talk) 10:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The inaccuracy of the term 'Chinese-American'

Why is the introduction to this article include it being a 'Chinese-American' establishment? It is not uniquely Chinese-American. Tongs are found all over the world where ever there is a significant Chinese community. Is the author of this article not that well informed or do I need to change it myself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Si lapu lapu (talk • contribs) 17:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Because they go by a variety of names, see hongmen, triads, tiandihui, hui, kongsi, etc. The ones established in America are known in America as tongs, which is why this article is about the American variant. As for being "well-informed", cite your sources: I have come across none that state that all Chinese secret societies ([[[tiandihui]] and its offshoots) are universally known as tongs. hateless 23:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps I already pointed this one out too (see above). Si lapu lapu is right. Tongs are found worldwide, not just America. I can't go any further in 'citing sources' apart from the fact that I am IN one as my family and relatives is practically in such a 'tong' found in the Philippines. If you want some 'evidence', here it is: http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9053/liongtaktong4rw2.jpg There.. It is 'Liong Tek Tong' in Hokkien Chinese. The word 'Tong' is also used in Hokkien and there are countless numbers of tongs and kongsis (Kongsi being another Hokkien term) here in the philippines. Hui is also another Hokkien term and the men in the above picture are also in 'Hia Ti Hui' which is a 'Brotherhood of chinese'. If that's not enough "evidence" then I don't know what is. This is just like arguing about 'was Bulgaria in the Axis alliance in world war II or not' and people having to cite evidence upon evidence that they were just so to satisfy some people who don't believe in something simply straightforward enough. There are just some things where you have to take people's word. So there, I agree with OP to change it from 'Chinese American' to 'Chinese' because it is not a uniquely Chinese-American establishment! Vlag (talk) 21:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Vlag
Let me reiterate: I don't deny that Chinese secret societies exist worldwide. What I like to see is proof that they are called "tongs" (堂) as a generic term worldwide. Your pics don't prove that at all, in fact, the first picture you present doesn't have the character for tong anywhere, but hui (會) is present. Also, your word (or any other type of hearsay) is not enough for Wikipedia. As it states in WP:V, a core policy on Wikipedia, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth". Remember that Chinese secret societies worldwide are covered in other articles like triad society and tiandihui. hateless 22:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi again. I would not be able to prove it to you because it isn't like we have a website for our society or members have myspace profiles or academic articles are written about it. So I will say that you should ask around in real life especially if you have Singaporean or Malaysian chinese friends or contacts and ask them of tongs in those countries. I am sure at least one of them will know as their grandfathers (or whatever relation) will have most likely been in a tong. I will try and get 'evidence' and show you Philippine-Chinese tongs.. and they exist. The character you showed (堂).. Is it meant to be simplified or traditional? Vlag (talk) 01:14, 8 February 2008 (UTC) Vlag
I removed the first link to the picture above as I do not want it to be seen by any more people. It is not a good idea for me to be putting up pics of the society up on the net. Vlag (talk) 13:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)Vlag
The burden of proof lies on someone to reference that the term does refer only to Chinese American organisations, if you want it to say Chinese American. Until that it happens it should only read Chinese, as that does not imply either way. Leushenko (talk) 22:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Language and Romanization

Could someone explain the source of the Roman spelling of these names? They are similar to modern spellings of Cantonese, but too far off for easy searching.[2] For example, Wo Hop To = 和合桃 = wo4 hap6 tou4; "Hop" also occurs in Hop Sing Tong. The List of Triad Societies, Criminally Influenced Tongs and Chinese Gangs is useful, but doesn't explain the romanization. Wnt (talk) 06:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Secretive society

I don't think Tongs are secret society, as their existence and whereabouts are not exactly hard to find. Maybe the criminal aspects of their operations are secret, but they do have community support elements. It is probably better characterized as fraternal organizations as noted in this State Department report. --16:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)