Talk:Tom Clarke (Irish republican)

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[edit] Name

Tom Clarke? Who in the world calls him Tom Clarke? I'm moving it to Thomas Clarke Dermo69

Unfortunately, this page was not on my Watchlist when the move was made last year. I believe the move was a mistake. The following books, most of which are listed in the bibliography of the Easter Rising article, all give the his names as “Tom Clarke” not “Thomas Clarke”:

  • Max Caulfield, The Easter Rebellion, Dublin 1916
  • Tim Pat Coogan, 1916: The Easter Rising
  • Michael Foy and Brian Barton, The Easter Rising
  • C Desmond Greaves The Life and Times of James Connolly
  • Robert Kee, Ireland: A History
  • Charles Townshend, Easter 1916: The Irish Rebellion'
  • Seán Mc Mahon, Rebel Ireland
  • Annie Ryan, Witnesses: Inside the Easter Rising
  • Kathleen Clarke, Revolutionary Woman
  • Desmond Fitzgerald, Desmond’s Rising

The last three are especially important as they are the words of the people who actually knew and worked with this man. Kathleen Clarke was married to Tom, so she might be expected to know.
For these reasons, and because I am involved in an effort to improve the Easter Rising article, I propose to move this back to the original name. Scolaire 14:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This article has been renamed from Thomas Clarke (Irish republican) to Tom Clarke (Irish republican) as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 20:22, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rank

Sorry, the very source cited in the footnote specifically says "he held no formal military rank." (p. 37) It goes on to say that he was "recognized by the garrison as one of its commanders", but that's with a lowercase "c" and is not a rank; he was merely a person of authority. I have seen no evidence that Clarke ever was a member of the Volunteers, or even that they had an official rank of "Commander". Ruth Dudley Edwards even notes that he "avoided taking military rank" (Patrick Pearse: Triumph of failure, p. 276). So I'm removing the rank of Commander and membership in the Volunteers (I'll add the latter back if there's any evidence he actually joined the organization). I'll leave the years as the years he was in the IRB. -R. fiend (talk) 22:09, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

"Though he held no formal military rank, Clarke, recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders, was active through out the week in the direction of the fight, and shared the fortunes of his comrad...The Proclamation of the republic must be regarded as the collective work of the signatories, members of the Provisional Government, all of them among the sixteen leaders later executed. Ruth Dudley Edwards even notes that he "avoided taking military rank", but dose not say he did not. In addition, he was the founding member of the military council. --Domer48 (talk) 22:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
As I said "No formal military rank". So he did not hold the rank of "Commander", even though he may have "commanded" men. You're backing up my point here. He was a leader of the Rising, to be sure (no one is denying that) but he held no rank and was not an official member of the Volunteers. Show me a source that he was. -R. fiend (talk) 02:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
If you want to put him down as in the IRA, or the Army of the Irish Republic, you might have a case (with sources), but he was not a "Commander" in the Volunteers (nor the IRB, who had no "rank" of "Commander"). -R. fiend (talk) 02:10, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The references are there, don’t disrupt wiki to make a WP:POINT. --Domer48 (talk) 10:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

“The acronym the Irish Republican Army was first used in 1867 to describe the ill-fated group of Fenian’s who invaded Canada in 1867. It was used again in 1916 to describe the Irish Citizen Army and Irish Volunteers who seized and held the centre of Dublin in the Easter Rising. In 1919 the Irish Volunteers adopted the name, the Irish Republican Army....Commandant James Connelly was cheered when he told them from now on there was no Irish Citizen Army and no Irish Volunteers. They were the Irish Republican Army. He gave the order to charge the GPO.” (The Volunteer: Uniforms, Weapons and History of the Irish Republican Army 1913-1997, by James Durney, Gaul House, Kildare, 2004) --Domer48 (talk) 10:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Add something relevant or nothing at all. Your own sources say Clarke held no rank. You have not demonstrated that Clarke was ever even a member of the Volunteers. Now you come here with irrelevant info on the IRA, an organization which isn't even mentioned in the goddamn article. Your consistent misinterpretation of simple text is making me question everything you add to Wikipedia. Show me a source which (specifically) states that Clarke held any rank (let alone the apparently non-existent rank of "Commander") in the Volunteers or quit adding it. -R. fiend (talk) 14:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
"Though he held no formal military rank, Clarke, recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders--Domer48 (talk) 14:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes. Commander is not a rank. If it said "position" and you put "leader" and left him out of the Volunteers you'd probably have a point. But he was not a Volunteer and he held no rank. The text is quite clear on this. -R. fiend (talk) 14:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
He was a founding member of the military council. BigDunc (talk) 14:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I KNOW. But how does being a member of the IRB Military Council make him a "Commander" in the Volunteers? That's why these templates are dumb, they don't allow for any change. He held no rank, though he did have several positions (signatory of the Proclamation, Treasurer of the IRB, founder of the Military Council, "leader" of the Rising, member of both the Supreme Council and the Executive Committee of the IRB) that might warrant inclusion under a heading other than "rank". He did not join the Volunteers. Putting him down as a member of the IRA is probably the closest anyone will get. But he did not hold a rank. He commanded men, but that does not give him the rank "Commander" any more than I get that rank for telling people what to do. Reference it with something that says he held that rank or quit adding it.
As for Padraig's comments below, that's basically true. Put him down as IRA or Army of the Irish Republic, but not the Volunteers. Then find source that he held the military rank of Commander in that army, and not that he was just considered a leader who "commanded" men because he was perceived as being in a position of authority. -R. fiend (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


While its true Tom Clarke held no rank in the Volunteers he was a member of the leadership of the IRB, but once the Rising started he was considered a Commander of the Army of the Republic when the members of the ICA, Irish Volunteers and Irish National Rifles involved in the rising came together to form the Army of the Republic or IRA. Clarkes reason for not accepting rank in the Volunteers prior to that was so as not to alert the authorities of the IRBs intentions.--Padraig (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The title of info box is "Allegiance." That he was behind their formation means it should be reflected in the info box. --Domer48 (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Is Allegiance not a loyalty to a nation, organisation, or cause. Tell me how this does not apply to him. BigDunc (talk) 16:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Then his allegiance should be Irish Republic, as his allegiance was to that, not to the Volunteers (an organization whose official aim was Home Rule). Additionally, he was not behind the creation of the Volunteers. Members of the IRB were, but not him. In any case, he did not hold the rank of "Commander" (a rank which is generally not associated with the army anyway). Provide a reference for an actual rank he officially held, don't just say he "commanded" people. -R. fiend (talk) 17:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Dunc, your talking to a wall, don't waste anymore time on them. --Domer48 (talk) 17:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

It is pathetic to see the amount of bickering over something that is otherwise so simple. Do the people claiming that Tom Clarke held the rank of "Commander" not know the difference in meaning between capitalised uncapitalised nouns? There is nothing wrong with Domer48's source; the problem is that he is misreading it. If Tom Clarke held the rank of Commander, then the first letter of that word would be in capital letters in that extract. But it isn't. While the term Commander-in-Chief was used, "Commander" was not a rank in the IRB at the time of the 1916 rising (and please don't ask me to provide a source proving that something doesn't exist!).--Damac (talk) 18:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Your right Damac, he was a Commander in the Volunteers. --Domer48 (talk) 18:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Um, do you even read what other people write before you respond? -R. fiend (talk) 18:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Domer48, the rank of Commander never existed in the Irish Volunteers; are you not confusing it with Commandant? The book you cite talks about Clarke being "one of the commanders". There were many Commandants in the 1916 Rising, but no Commanders (apart from C-in-C Pearse. The use of (lower-case) commanders in your source is clearly another way saying "one of the leaders".--Damac (talk) 18:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Damac the rank of Commander did exist in the Irish Volunteers and was used at Company level, as in them having the ranks of Company Commander, Half-company Commanders and Section commanders. See Irish Volunteer Soldier 1913-23, by G White & B. O'Shea p.13 ISBN 1-84176-685-2.--Padraig (talk) 20:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, he was not Commandant. I think part of the problem is things such as ranks got confused when a couple different militant organizations merged to form the Army of the Irish Republic. As of Easter Saturday, the Volunteers had 4 Commandants, Daly, McDonagh, Ceannt, and De Valera (at least in Dublin). By Easter Monday they had Connolly as Commandant General of the Dublin division (actually not 100% sure division is the right word here, but you get the point), and I believe Mallin was also given that title for his battalion at Stephens Green. These of course were separate from the official ranks of the Volunteers, which had been in place for about a year. Whether or not they handed out a bunch of other ranks that day, I can't say, but I've seen no evidence for this (though perhaps Heuston became de facto Comamndant when he was in command of a group of men isolated in the Mendicity Institution). I'm still waiting to see evidence that Clarke held any rank at all. We all know he commanded men. That is not the issue here. Maybe we should just replace the military template with a more appropriate one, where his position can be explained without having to pretend he held some military rank? -R. fiend (talk) 19:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree fully, and should have been more precise in my last response. While some of the other 1916 leaders are often referred to with their rank (Commandant), Clarke never is because he wasn't one. He was, of course, a leader, and I don't think anyone here disputes that.--Damac (talk) 19:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The command structure of Republican forces were:

  • Commandant General & Commander-in-Chief of Irish Volunteers. - P. H. Pearse
  • Commandant General & Commander Dublin Division Irish Volunteers. - James Connolly
  • Commandant General - J. M. Plunkett

1st (Dublin City) Battalion Irish Volunteers - less D Company.

  • Commandant - E. Daly
  • Vice-Commandant - P. Breaslai

D - Company 1st (Dublin City) Battalion Irish Volunteers.

  • Sean Heuston - Captain D Company, 1st (Dublin City) Battalion Irish Volunteers.

2nd (Dublin City) Battalion Irish Volunteers.

  • Commandant - T. MacDonagh, Commander Dublin Brigade Irish Volunteers.
  • Vice-Commandant - Maj. J. Mc Bride

3rd (Dublin City) Battalion Irish Volunteers.

  • Commandant - E. de Valera, Adjutant Dublin Brigade Irish Volunteers.

4th (Dublin City) Battalion Irish Volunteers.

  • Commandant - E. Céannt
  • Vice-Commandant - C. Brugha

5th (North Dublin) Battalion Irish Volunteers.

  • Commandant - T. Ashe

Irish Citizens Army

  • Commandant - M. Mallin.

Irish Citizen Army (Detachment)

  • Captain - S. Connolly

Kimmage Garison

  • Captain - G. Plunkett

Source: Easter Rising 1916, by Peter McNally ISBN 978-1-84603-067-3. It is obvious from the list that it is not totally accurate or complete, but these are the positions he gives on the morning of the Rising.--Padraig (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Padraig. It's clear, therefore, that Clarke did not hold any formal rank.--Damac (talk) 19:47, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

That basically is what I recall reading (though I hadn't realized Plunkett was also Commandant General, though I knew he was a principal strategist). The absence of Clarke and MacDermott seems to imply they held no rank (although MacDermott was certainly a member of the Volunteers, so it sees likely he held some sort of rank). Anyone have any idea why Dev has no Vice Commandant? I can't recall; was it someone who was unsympathetic to the rising and didn't show? Also, wasn't O'Hanrahan the official Vice Commadant before MacBride's unexpected appearance? -R. fiend (talk) 19:53, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The ranks given where those planned for the muster points on the morning of the rising, these may not have been actual positions when the rising got underway, there are obvious ommissions from the list.--Padraig (talk) 19:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The Office of Public Works, who maintaine the Prison publish Last words, so a GOVERNMENT supports it's inclusion. Now what the others need is a reference which says he held no position, official or otherwise. --Domer48 (talk) 12:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

What we now have is an Admin, who can only resort to trying to make a point. I have provided a reference which is published by the Office of Public Works, a branch of the Irish Government, who are the custodians of Kilmainham Goal and museum. All that has been provided is a reference which says, he “avoided taking military rank.” Not that he did not. Yet, I have provided a reference mentioned above, which says he was “recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders.” Now would that suggest that the garrison would have accepted his orders, of course it would. Now, was he a commander of the IRA in Easter 1916, yes he was. Now since another reference would appear to be need I have provided on. “To my amazement, Tom turned into the avenue, accompanied by Tommy O’Connor, who had been appointed with Sean McGarry as his aide-de-camp.” My Fight for Ireland’s Freedom, Kathleen Clarke, RP 1997, ISBN 0 86278 245 7, page 75. --Domer48 (talk) 15:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
If the reference says he had been appointed an Aide-de-Camp Tommy O'Connor then Clarke must have held an accepted a rank of Commander.--Padraig (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Tommy O’Connor and Sean McGarry, he was appointed two. Sean McGarry was also a very good friend of his. --Domer48 (talk) 16:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It's already been established that the first reference does not state that he held the rank of Commander. It even says he did not hold any rank. The second said he had an aide de camp (or two). This implies that he did hold some form of rank or position of authority, but it does not state what that rank might have been. The current quote doesn't give adequate context for knowing exactly what is meant by that in any case, as aide de camp is not a very specific term. There is still no reference specifically saying that Clarke held the rank "Commander". -R. fiend (talk) 16:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Just because you refuse to accept the references, dose not change a thing. It is obvious you just want to make a point. I suggest you stop. --Domer48 (talk) 17:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Commander revisited

I wanted to out out some conflicts on other pages before revisiting this, but there's progress being made there so I think it's time. I was sort of under the impression that there was a general consensus that Clarke did not hold the rank of Commander, but he was a' "commander" (small c) in the sense that he did command men. This is not an official rank (or an unofficial one, for that matter), as the source cited makes very clear. The only new information is that Clarke was appointed two aides-de-camp. That's nice and all, but where is it written that having an aide-de-camp appointed is something that only happens to people who hold the rank of Commander? I, for one, am of the opinion that this entire infobox is nto really appropriate for Clarke, and would like to see another. Maybe we could even make an Easter Rising infobox just for the people involved? Then we could reject the entire notion of "Rank" in this case and get around to stating his real, critical, role in the Rising. -R. fiend (talk) 01:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with the idea of a Easter Rising infobox for use in these articles, the rank field could then either be eliminated or we could have the option of it or a position field.--Padraig (talk) 05:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
That sounds good to me. This whole notion of "rank" has drawn attention away from his integral role in the Rising (him being the Rising's father, if it can be said to have one) to a petty squabble over how to define his exact position. I think it is pretty clear he did not hold the rank of Commander; your post above, showing the ranks of the involved parties, indicates that. Mentioning that Sean Connolly was a Captain but neglecting to mention the rank of Commander for Clarke? Not if he actually held such a rank, I don't think. I'm fully in favor of a different infobox. An Easter Rising one could work, if its existence can be justified (I have to admit, the military infobox seems to work fine for most of the participants, but not Clarke, at least). Making templates is not my forte, so I will not volunteer, but if anyone has a thought on this, this would be a great place to discuss it. -R. fiend (talk) 07:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

As soon as you get a reference which says he did not have a rank, not one which says that he avoided one mind you, then we can move on. --Domer48 (talk) 11:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I created Template:Infobox Irish Republican based on the Military Person one I removed un-necessary field and include a field for position, which gives us the option of having either Rank or Position I have tried it out on this article, any comments or suggestions.--Padraig (talk) 11:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Sound Pádraig, if you could present it as field Position / Rank, that would cover both, as rank is more clearly established on the other articles. --Domer48 (talk) 11:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You have the option of using either rank or position or both if necessary, you just use whichever is best.--Padraig (talk) 11:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of the references, one editor insists on pushing their opinions on the article. Please do not simply blind revert again on this or any other of the articles you insist on pushing your opinions. --Domer48 (talk) 16:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not a revert (blind or otherwise), it's a correction, and saying exactly what the reference says. It says he was "recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders", that's commander with a small "c" (i.e. "one who commands"), and exactly what I made the infobox reflect. The link is to the rank Commander, which he did not hold. Your own source says "he held no formal military rank". Now, I have no idea what an "informal" military rank might be, but go down to your local barracks and ask around what sort of informal ranks various people hold and see what sort of replies you get. I'd be curious to know. We changed the template to reflect his lack of any rank, linking to the rank recreated the same error. It's not an "opinion". -R. fiend (talk) 17:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Pádraig has addressed this issue, that it dose not sit with your opinion is regrettable but all to familiar. No provide a references which says he was not "recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders", and you just might have a point. --Domer48 (talk) 17:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Did you even look at the edit I made? I called him a "commander" in it, so yes, he was "recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders". Linking to the formal military rank Commander when he "held no formal military rank" is simply erroneous. So I removed the link and lowercased the "c" to reflect what the text that you provided said. Explain where this is wrong, because I'm starting to seriously doubt your reading comprehension. -R. fiend (talk) 17:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Just because you refuse to accept the references, dose not change a thing. It is obvious you just want to make a point. I suggest you stop.--Domer48 (talk) 17:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I take it from your refusal to address the topic at hand, or even attempt to refute a single thing I said, that you have no case. Very well. I'll be restoring my edit then. Provide a reference that shows he held the formal military rank of [[Commander] and we'll have something to discuss. -R. fiend (talk) 17:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Tom Clarke "always regarded himself as a soldier of the Irish Republic," and as a soldier, he held the rank of a "Commander". Now that is a quote from P. S. O'Hegarty, in his introduction to "Glimpses of an Irish Felon's Prison Life" by T. J. Clarke. Just because you refuse to accept the references, dose not change a thing. It is obvious you just want to make a point. I again suggest you stop. You already reverted the edit, again edit warring --Domer48 (talk) 18:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

And I regard myself as a Galactic Soldier of Justice, and as such, I hold the rank of Grand Poo-bah. (Oh, and you can't accuse me of ignoring sources you never provided before.) You're really stretching credibility here. The infoboxes are for actual ranks held by military people, not what they considered themselves. The infobox, with the changes made by Padraig and me, is much more complete and accurate now. I suggest you let it be. -R. fiend (talk) 18:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Just because you refuse to accept the references, dose not change a thing. It is obvious you just want to make a point. It will be changed, inline with the references, and since you have decided to or been reduced to babbling and claiming credit for Pádraig’s efforts, to continue to feed you will only encourage such inane responses.--Domer48 (talk) 19:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Please, both of you, remain calm and civil and focus on the reasons in terms of our policies that you wish to make your edit. Thanks, --John (talk) 19:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I have provided references in relation to Clark and the rank he help during the Easter Rising. The sources are both valid and reliable. They meet the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia which is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that it has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that they wish to challenge. This editor has not provided any references which say Clarke did Not hold a rank, and was not a "Commander." Dispite this they have reverted this information a number of times since the 19 Dec 2007. --Domer48 (talk) 19:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm just about done with this conversation, but I'll say just a bit more. Let's take a look at what your sources say:
  1. Mac Lochlainn: "he held no formal military rank." You want to argue he held an informal military rank? You can start be defining what the hell that means. So he was "recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders". Great, but commander with a small "c" is the noun form of the verb "to command", which is separate from a rank (which the same paragraph specifically says he did not hold). You almost might as well argue that someone who charges something is a member of the San Diego Chargers.
  2. Kathleen Clarke: "Tommy O’Connor... had been appointed.. as his aide-de-camp." Great, but nowhere does that mention any rank, let alone the rank of Commander.
  3. O'Hegarty: Tom Clarke "always regarded himself as a soldier of the Irish Republic." This tells us nothing.
So where are these reliable sources showing his rank? -R. fiend (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

"recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders". I have provided references in relation to Clark and the rank he help during the Easter Rising. The sources are both valid and reliable. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that they wish to challenge. This editor has not provided any references which say Clarke did Not hold a rank, and was not a "Commander."--Domer48 (talk) 19:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Obviously though this is far from self-evident as an entry for the infobox. I can see where both of you are coming from. Please see if you can compromise and/or seek wider consensus on this point. --John (talk) 20:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
It's very difficult to reach compromise on a problem that has arisen from an evident problem in basic literacy. The source that Domer48 provides for Clarke holding a rank clearly states that "Clarke held no formal military rank." It also refers to "commander" and not "Commander". There is a difference. No one would doubt that Patrick Pearse was an "organiser" of the 1916 Rising, yet he was not the "Organiser". In English, capitalisation (the first letter as a majuscule), is always used to describe honorifics, titles and ranks.
As there is no logic in Domer48's claim, his repeated demand that other editors provide evidence that Clarke did not hold military rank are impossible to fulfil. It is impossible to provide evidence to prove that A doesn't exist, when the whole basis for claiming that A exists is based on nothing.--Damac (talk) 23:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice try, but no cigar. "Clarke held no formal military rank." Clearly states that he held on formal rank, not that he did not hold one. Regardless what you think, he was "recognised by the garrison as one of the commanders". --Domer48 (talk) 08:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but that's not a rank, it's a perception on the part of the garrison.--Damac (talk) 09:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

He was "recognised...as one of the commanders". Please don't try wikilawyering, it is not productive. --Domer48 (talk) 10:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Being recognised as something does not necessarily mean you are that. While I may "recognise" some people to be eejits, that does not necessarily mean they are one. You are taking a subjective interpretation here (recognised ... as a commander), and elevating to an objective fact.--Damac (talk) 11:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

He was "recognised...as one of the commanders". Please don't try wikilawyering, it is not productive. As with this author, are they suggesting these did not hold rank?

“It also approved his proposal to use in the attack officers from the Fianna, the republican boy scout organisation. MacDonagh, his commandant, then promoted him to lieutenant, a post senior enough to enable him to recruit for the operation.” Michael Foy and Brian Barton, The Easter Rising P.35

“While the Military Council refined the general plan, battalion commandants instructed their officers to gather intelligence on their areas of operations, select outposts and ready their men psychologically and militarily for urban warfare. De Valera, commandant of the 3rd Dublin Battalion, meticulously reconnoitred the district surrounding Boland’s Mills, while his officers identified garages, stables and factories, and food, clothing and medical stores.” Michael Foy and Brian Barton, The Easter Rising P.36

“The circle of knowledge widened further as battalion commandants briefed their senior officers.” Michael Foy and Brian Barton, The Easter Rising P.55 --Domer48 (talk) 21:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It is well known that "commandant" was a rank in the Irish Volunteers. "Commander" was not. There is abundant evidence to say that all of the people above held the rank of commandants. There is none to suggest that Clarke was ever appointed as "Commander Thomas Clarke". While we can find references to "Commandant Eamon de Valera" in documents, you will find none for "Commander Thomas Clarke" or for "Commander A. N. Other". The rank did not exist. In the context of 1916, the term/rank commandant does exist in upper-case letters; the description "commander" never. Someday it might dawn on you.--Damac (talk) 23:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

He was "recognised...as one of the commanders". Please don't try wikilawyering, it is not productive. Now you are just out to make a point, and waste time, go ahead. Just do not disrupt Wiki trying to do it. --Domer48 (talk) 23:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, being recognised as something does not make you that. The text you provide clearly states that Clarke did not have a "formal rank". His men recognised him as a leader/commander. That is not the same as a rank. Had he held a rank, the author would have surely mentioned it.--Damac (talk) 17:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)