Talk:Tom Brown (naturalist)

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This entry does not cite any of its sources, and is essentially a promotion and in accurate portrayal of Tom Brown Jr. It makes numerous claims, and no where does it cite its sources. There is plenty controversy surrounding Tom Brown Jr. None of his stories can be verified, a good example being that he claims he solved his 750th case on his birthday yet if you do a lexus nexus search you find one or two cases, normally one's he messed up on. His classes are also very crowded, 80-120 plus people, and little if any interaction with the so called teachers. Look at all the instructors they have gone through. They have a merchandise store. He doesn't even walk his talk, he owns several hummers and mansions and chain smokes.Oaktree8 22:29, 4 March 2007 (UTC) (edit)

I just found this article randomly, but it seems not to adhere to lead section standards for biographical articles, e.i., not beginning with the formula "Person A, born in (year) is/was a(n) (profession/most notable characteristic." I would change that, but I don't have the necessary expertise. Fsotrain09 21:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

hmm, i'm not sure if i agree to those additions made quite recently to the tom brown, jr. page. If "stalking wolf" never existed, how did tom learn his skills? he has a tracking school, so he obviously learnt them somewhere. User:SECProto

I also do not agree to the additions, but more importantly, I feel these violate Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. Statements such as:

Tom Brown Jr. remains a highly controversial character
-User:85.76.222.95

give the misleading impression that Tom is controversial in general. While he may be controversial to a minority, he is not controversial to most. Therefore, the contrarian statements added by User:85.76.222.95 should be pushed into the background.

User:85.76.222.95, this is your opportunity to respond to this discussion before these changes are completed.

I'd like to respond to another statement:

Brown's tracking skills go beyond what other professional trackers think is possible
-User:85.76.222.95

Indeed they do. But this is no reason to dispute Tom's skills. Most people have a hard time believing what he can do, even when they see it with their very own eyes. As an example, I provide this quote from a police officer involved in a tracking case Tom worked. It is from Ocean Township Police Lt. Scott Sprague:

"Have you watched him (Brown) do this?" Sprague asked. "You watch him and you say to yourself,
'This guy is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. There's no tracks on the pavement to see. Who
does he think he's kidding?' Yet, he was able to do in two hours what nine cops, a bloodhound and a     
guy in a helicopter could not do in twice that time."
-"Expert Tracks Missing Child" by Erik Larsen, Asbury Park Press, 2003

In summary, while it is true that evidence does not exist for elements of Tom's history such as Stalking Wolf or his year-long trek alone in the wilderness, this is no cause for doubt, except among those who are sceptical by nature. Indeed, why would there be evidence of such things; it is not expected, and only demanded by those naturally inclined to disbelieve. The comments of skeptics, though valid, are by no means a solid basis for an encyclopedic article.

-User:Lensim 02:56, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I made the changes. User:Lensim Lensim 15:25, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure he lived in the woods for *ten* years? The sports illustrated article his web site points to says he spent 1 year in the woods.

I read a couple of his books, and they all refer to his 10 years in the wilderness. -SECProto 00:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Soon after Stalking Wolf left Tom (circa 1968), Tom spent just over one year in complete isolation from other people in the New Jersey Pine Barrens, taking only a knife. This is documented in his book The Search. Soon after, Tom spent a period of time wandering the U.S. (mostly in wilderness areas but not strictly), taking little more than a folding knife and bedroll. This is referenced in various books of his, most notably The Way of the Scout. The fact that these wanderings lasted about 10 years is noted on the Tracker School website in the short biography on Tom. Lensim 14:43, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

I was a long time fan of Tom's although I never got the chance to attend one of his classes. Recently my feelings about him have changed and I'm not as taken with him as I once was. Two things caused this. First I meet him in person during a lecture and he was not what I expected. He's a wonderful speaker but he's not very friendly and very guarded. I can't even explain the feeling but I don't think "Grandfather" would have been like that. The second and more important reason has to do with one of Tom's early jobs. In the late 60s or early 70s he worked as a seasonal employee for a New Jersey park system. I work for this park system full time and I've mentioned his name to a few long time employees who knew him and supervised him. None had anything good to say about him and there general feeling was that he made up most of his history. They couldn't say how he gained his current skills but during his time working for the system he did not impress them with any skills he may have had. I trust the people I've talked to and they don't have any reason to lie. Apparently he was the first person to be fired from the park system. I just wish we knew the truth about him but I have a feeling we never will.

I do know Tom very well. I am his brother Jim. Tom was very frustrated with the park system you mention. Many people with the title of naturalist had a degree in biology but had no real knowledge of field biology. They couldn't identify trees, birds, etc. correctly. This frustrated Tom. He made a little museum for them and I remember him doing taxidermy. He had an owl that was positioned to attack its prey. It was fantastic. Tom did not have a college degree and on more than one occasion corrected the mistakes the "naturalists" made. This threatened them and they turned against him. He also had a habit of calling out sick so he could be out in the Pine Barrens. Tom had a tough time with the 9 to 5 box that the world wanted him to fit into. Tom always followed his own path. It’s what makes him unique. I am surprised by the negative attitudes. Tom is the most amazing and inspiring person I have ever met. His skills in the wilderness are legendary. I have always looked up to my big brother and I am very proud of him. Tom has had problems dealing with his "celebrity status." Many people try to invade his privacy and it is difficult for him to deal with this. I hope this helps. (Dr. Jim Brown)

No longer being taken with him is perhaps not a bad thing. It is hard to dispute his skills, having never seen them in real life, but his books are what is important. they promote being healthy, how to live in the wilderness etc - the guy may not be as great as you may have thought at first, but that doesnt mean he can't affect the reader in a positive way. SECProto 15:30, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I do not know Tom personally but I can speak from the experience of knowing someone "famous". Regardless of any skills Tom might have, he is still just a man like any other man, given to the same ups and downs, the same good and bad times as all other men. From afar, people of fame tend to look neat and tidy but in reality--though their achievements may be real--these personalities are just as complicated as the rest of us (c.f. Albert Einstein. "There is solid proof that Albert treated his wife disgracefully," says one PBS special. See also Charles Lindbergh. Great men; yet controversy exists...because though great, they are still men). As for Tom, take this quote from the Dedication of his book The Science and Art of Tracking, "To my wife, Debbie, who pulled me from the bowels of despair. Who stood by me and guided me back to my Vision when I was ready to give it all up." --Lensim 21:53, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it important to note, here, that a person being aloof or cold to people they don't know is never evidence of their not being as good as claimed about what they do. In fact, often, quite the opposite: from what I gather from the three books of his that I've read and from other sources I've read such as the article here, Mr. Brown has at least two of the defining characteristics of Asperger Syndrome - a condition which involves, among other things, an intense focus in one particular area of interest to the exclusion of most other things in life (often resulting in a degree of skill or knowledge others find hard to credit), and a difficulty with social interaction with other people. A large number of the world's leading scientists, mathemeticians, musical composers, etc., are likely to have this condition. The classical archetype of the "socially inept nerd" is pretty much based on it, and though Mr. Brown has a pretty unique area of focused interest, from what I've read of him he fits the bill.

I didin't know who Tom Brown is until I read this article. Yet I can say this: This article is not neutral. İt felt like I was reading a personal advertisment, not a wikipedia article. Isatay 03:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it is not very neutral. I have studied from Tom Brown, and read his books, but I would expect an article on Wikipedia to be different from what you might read on the school webpage. We have to step back a little, and try to aim for more objectivity.

As far as the controversy about where he learned his skills, Tom Brown's first student, Jon Young (who founded the Wilderness Awareness School) has said that Tom had extraordinary naturalist skills at the age of 18, when they first met. He also mentioned in an interview (that likely is no longer available through the net), that Tom would continue learning from as many people as he could, which may have led to people's claims that they taught him what he knows. GeoffreyCH 16:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs documentation of notability

At the moment, all the external links in the article are either links to articles Tom Brown's written or links to websites controlled by him. The requirements for notability WP:N state: A topic is notable if it has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial published works from sources that are reliable and independent of the subject itself and each other. - while it seems very likely that it's easy to satisfy this criterion for this article, I don't believe the article currently documents that it's satisfied. --Alvestrand 07:01, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

He has written 17 very popular books, the first of which was a Reader's Digest featured book. The fact that there is little on the web about him speaks of his reclusiveness and his shunning of publicity, which is all the more reason to have this article, because many people want to know more about him but have no way of finding it. Softlavender (talk) 06:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Tom Brown is controversial among other wilderness survival and primitive living instructors. If you read various internet forums on these subjects, which I have over the past 15 years, this comes out. There has also been at least talk of him having a falling out with Larry Dean Olsen, a famous wilderness survival instructor, and their reconsiliation was published somewhere - either in Wilderness Way Magazine or in the Journal of the Society of Primitive Technology. I can't recall which. There is further talk that Tom Brown learned much of what he knows from Larry Dean Olsen, but I have never been able to track down the truth of this. As far as I know, no one has been able to find documentation of his friend Rick's existence, military service, or Apache ancestry. There are a lot of unanswered questions about Mr.Brown and to date he has not been forth coming about any of these questions.

None of his stories are verifiable, just do a lexus nexus search on him, he claims to have solved 750 cases by his 27 birthday. Which is about a case a week, yet there are almost no articles on him, one or two, normally on how he screwed up. His classes are very very crowded, 80-120 plus, he doesn't really teach, he just talks and yells a lot, and blabs about some BS stories. He owns several mansions, and hummers and chain smokes, he doesn't walk his talk, he isn't about saving the earth like he talks about. He also has a loyal cult like following who adamantly defend everything about him and his school, and promote him. If you're serious about learning how to live in the woods, go elsewhere.

[edit] Article is highly biased

This article portrays Tom Brown in a very positive, almost god-like light, without any citations. The very large quotation in the middle has no citation at all. The following quote is cited:

This amazement is possibly best illustrated in the following quote by Ocean Township Police Lt. Scott Sprague who worked with Tom in 2003 to successfully find a missing boy (taken from "Expert Tracks Missing Child" by Erik Larsen, Asbury Park Press, 2003): "Have you watched him (Brown) do this?" Sprague asked. "You watch him and you say to yourself, 'This guy is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. There's no tracks on the pavement to see. Who does he think he's kidding?' Yet, he was able to do in two hours what nine cops, a bloodhound and a guy in a helicopter could not do in twice that time."

I did a Google search for with the name of this article and the author and the only result was this page.

This article is not online in the Asbury Park Press archives, yet. However, it is in pdf form on the "tracker trail" website (not affiliated with Tom Brown). I added a link to this pdf in a formal wikipedia reference in the main article. Also, I removed the banner which stated the article did not cite "any" sources. I know more citations are wanted, so if there is a similar banner, but one which is not so extreme, please add that one.--Lensim 16:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This article also leaves out some of the more fanciful parts of Tom Browns philosophy. For example he teaches followers to use their minds to control a fire and that experts can use their minds to freeze a person mid-step. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.127.100.248 (talk) 14:04, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

If you feel something is left out, go ahead and put it in! I will make a personal comment which is appropriate here. This is a first-hand account. Over a few days one December, my brother and I, along with tracker school students and instructors, helped prepare some tracker school property to be sold to a new owner. As we were leaving, my brother and I casually said good-bye to one tracker school instructor who was taught by Tom himself, among others. This man thanked us, verbally, from the bottom of his heart, but my brother and I continued our casual departure. A few paces later, my brother and I both stopped cold in our tracks. I mean, from a quick walking pace to zero, in an instant. We both turned around to face the instructor. From a few yards away he again thanked us, and this time my brother and I had no choice but to feel the weight of his heartfelt thanks. After a long pause, we peacefully parted ways. There is no doubt in my mind that this man "froze" my brother and I, in order to properly thank us.--Lensim 16:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I hope I sorted out some of the stylistic problems with this page. I also tried to rewrite with a more neutral tone199.76.178.100 02:11, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Good work so far. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 12:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree: a more neutral tone is appropriate for Wikipedia. Keep it up.--Lensim 16:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted removal of skeptical commentary

I reverted an attempt by User:Springburn to remove a lot of critical commentary from this article.

One reason is that he's not discussing his changes (I agree that a lot of the critical commentary deserves removal, because it's not sourced - in most cases, Wikipedia should REPORT critical commentary, it shouldn't CREATE it), but the other reason is that he was adding some rather stilted - AND unreferenced - theories about what happens to a bathroom scale when you turn your head. I felt those additions to be entirely unsupportable. --Alvestrand 09:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the material described one of the ways in which Brown reads tracks. I've taken the introductory course at Brown's tracking school, and part of the training involves being able to read very subtle changes in tracks which are caused by minor changes in body position, which Brown calls "pressure releases." I think that may be covered in Brown's book The Science and Art of Tracking, but ATM I don't have the time to properly verify that that's in there, and won't for another couple of weeks. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 16:18, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I own The Science and Art of Tracking. It's all laid out pretty plainly. I agree that it sound fantastic until you actually begin studying tracks. 199.76.183.214 16:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Added the Science and Art of Tracking reference 68.52.141.12 (talk) 17:19, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

RE the Bullshit link - Even though I'm a supporter of Brown, if the show featured him as part of its material, then it deserves mention in the article, especially if there's a link that can be used as a reference. Other controversial people have been featured on that show and have references to such in their Wikipedia articles; Brown is no different and must be treated impartially. Willbyr (talk | contribs) 13:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)