Talk:Tollmann's hypothetical bolide

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[edit] The "Evidence", B.C.

"The 7640 BCE evidence is consistent with the dates of formation of a number of salt flats and lakes still extant in dry areas of North America and Asia, suggesting that the strikes may have occurred in oceans, causing multiple-kilometer-high waves that penetrated deeply into continents, and/or causing large amounts of saltwater to be pushed into orbit and fall down as rain, leaving salt lakes in deserts. Surface salt is always a temporary geological phenomenon, because rain dissolves salt." Where is a salt flat that can be securely dated 9590 Before Present (ie "7640 B.C.") that was formed all at once? These "dry lakes" are formed of shallow varves. The "B.C." style of dating demonstrates the context of this assertion. If this text can't be made more credible, it should be removed, unless it can simply report a quote to Tollmann to similar effect. --Wetman 15:20, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some Observations on Wetman's Remarks

Wetman presents very valid points in his comments. as far as Tollmann is concerned. First, Kristan-Tollmann and Tollmann (1994) contains no reference to impact-generated tsunamis having created the salt lakes. Thus, unless their book, which is difficult to get a copy of and is written in German, contains reference to the formation of salt lakes by comet impacts, the association between salt lakes and impact generated tsunamis is not part of Tollmann's hypothetical bolide theory. Rather, it appears that the association between comet impacts and salt lakes and flats was instead proposed by Uriel's Machine instead of by Dr. Kristan-Tollmann and Dr. Tollmann.

Finally, the scientific literature published, including papers published before 1999, on the salt lakes mentioned by Uriel's Machine, contain an abundance of evidence, in the form of the sediments, fossils, minerals, and dated materials, indicating that either salt lakes or salt flats existed at various times in all of these lakes prior to 7640 BC. The same literature also soundly refutes that the claim that change from fresh water to either salt water or salt flats occurred in these lakes precisely at 7640 BC.

Great Salt Lake, which is discussed in Uriel's Machine, is an example of the fictional nature of the claims it makes about salt lakes. Detailed studies of the sedimentology, chronology, mineralogy, palynology, and paleontology of the sediments underlying the Great Salt Lake demonstrate that is has been a salt flat numerous times in its history. For example, Spencer and others (1984, 1985) demonstrates that the Great Salt Lake was an ephemeral saline lake - playa lake prior to 30,000 BC C14. They also offer abundant evidence in the form of mirabilite beds, carbonate crusts, sediments containing brine shrimp eggs and the remains of brine shrimp, and so forth that the Great Salt Lake became a salt lake about 12,000 BC C14. For the Great Salt Lake, the fresh to salt lake transition occurred thousands of years before Uriel's Machine claims it became salty as the result of tsunamis caused by comet impacts. Thus, it is impossible for either their hypothetical comet impacts or even any event dating to 7640 BC to have been responsible for the fresh water to salt transformation in case of the Great Salt Lake.

In case of another salt lake mentioned in Uriel's Machine, Lake Van, the prehistory of changes in its lake level and salinity, as reconstructed by Landmann and others (1996), is also impossible to explain in terms of tsunamis generated by comet impacts about 7640 BC. In the past 20,000 years, the maximum salinity in Lake Van occurred not after the hypothesized impacts as argued in Uriel's Machine. Instead the maximum salinity occurred between 14,000 and 12,000 BC, some 6,360 to 4,360 years before and not after the time, which comet impacts are argued to have occurred. Sometime around 13,000 BC, Lake Van was likely a salt flat over 5,000 years before 7640 BC. After 12,000 BC, Lake Van's salinity decreased and lake level rose, with a couple of significant fluctuations, until about 5,500 BC as dated by varve counts. Over this period of time, Lake Van went from a salt flat to salt lake and finally a fresh water lake, instead of from fresh to salt lake as implied in Uriel's Machine. Contrary to was is claimed in Uriel's Machine, the data and interpretations provided by Landmann (1996) reveals a complete lack of any correlation between changes in salinity and lake level and the catastrophic tsunamis hypothesized in Uriel's Machine and a complete lack of any physical evidence for such a tsunamis. As in case of the Great Salt Lake, Uriel's Machine completely ignores observations, data, and interpretations, which completely refutes its arguments instead of addressing them. Numerous other published papers also refute the claims made in Uriel's Machine about other salt lakes lacking evidence of "salt flats / salt lakes existing before 7640 BC and the transition from fresh water to salt water occurring exactly at 7640 BC.

References Cited

Kristan-Tollmann, E. and A. Tollmann, 1994, "The youngest big impact on Earth deduced from geological and historical evidence", Terra Nova, v. 6, no. 2, pp. 209-217.

Landmann, G., and A. Reimer, 1996, "Climatically induced lake level changes at Lave Van, Turkey, during the Pleistocene/Holocene transition", Global Biogeochemical Cycles, v. 10, no. 4, pp. 797-808.

Spencer, R.J., M.J. Baedecker, H.P. Eugster, R.M. Forester, M.B. Goldhaber, B.F. Jones, K. Kelts, J. Mckenzie, D.B. Madsen, S.L. Rettig, M. Rubin, and C.J. Bowser, 1984, "Great Salt Lake, and precursors, Utah: The last 30,000 year", Contributions to Mineralogy and Petrology, v. 86, no. 4, pp. 321-334.

Spencer, R.J., Eugster, H.P., and Jones, B.F., 1985, "Geochemistry of Great Salt Lake, Utah II: Pleistocene-Holocene evolution", Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta, v. 49, no. 3, pp. 739-747.