Talk:Tollan (Stargate)

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Are the Tollan anywhere near as advanced as the Asgard or Nox? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rajrajmarley (talk • contribs)

Unlikely, as last we heard their civilization was destroyed. :) More seriously, they built a Stargate so they were probably right up there before they got knocked down. Bryan 01:37, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Though on the same comparable level, capable of similar travel and weaponry and medicine, they were not yet completely equal to the Asgard/Nox prior to their destruction. The difference is like the difference between a billionaire and a millionaire (Asgard/Nox and Tollan, respectively), and a millionaire and a pauper (The Tollan and Us on little old Earth). Though still wealthy beyond need, they're not quite as rich as some others.

I would offer a somewhat different view from that idea. From what I have seen the Tollan appeared to be more technologically advanced than the Asgard although perhaps they were somewhat less advanced than the Nox (the exact difference is hard to tell). The Nox seem much more advanced than the Asgard. The Asgard cannot build Stargates whereas apparently the Nox can. The Tollan must have had more understanding of how the Stargate works than the Asgard. I think that both the Tollan and the Aschen were more advanced than the Asgard.

The fact that the Asgard were not defeated by the Goa'uld whereas the Tollan were defeated means very little (I know that Bryan was just joking about this however some people do use this as a claim as to the level of technology the Tollan had). The Tollan just simply lacked almost any major understanding of military matters. They were far more advanced than the Goa'uld (Anubis may have been catching up though). The Tollan were apparently too advanced to stay in the view of some. They could have helped a lot against the Ori and Wraith (once they decided to start building up a military and helping their allies) so the producers had them eliminated. As a side note: Does anyone else think that the Breeders (the faction that won a war of genocide being conducted against them in "The Other Side") should appear in a future episode? Nizhny 16:31, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Though advanced, there's been no on-screen information to suggest that the Tollan were more advanced than the Asgard. It's never been even hinted that the Asgard are incapable of building a Stargate; though I will concede the point that the Nox seem more advanced than the Asgard (Just as the Ancients were more advanced than both). And there is absolutely no chance that the Aschen were more advanced than the Asgard; though limited to only two episodes all technology we've seen has been noticeably behind the Asgard. The Tollan never atempted anything related to time manipulation, which the Asgard did, and their ships are apparently vastly inferior to the Asgard (Since the lack of a Stargate on the new Tollan homeworld posed a problem to travel to-and-fro). Though they do have ships, mentioned quite clearly, inter-Galactic travel is absent and even inter-stellar is never seen. The fact that they are apparently reliant on Stargate travel, which the Asgard only use as a back-up when more efficient and useful travel is unavailable, implies that their ships lag behind the Asgard. Regarding the Tollan's defeat at the hands of the Goa'uld, though it's not a definite indication of their technological inferiority, it does imply it. The Asgard weaponry, which was nullified by the new Anubis shield just as the Tollan Ion Cannons were, was eventually upgraded to another level of superiority. Whether it means that the Asgard developed new weaponry or simply started equiping their ships with already existing technology, it shows that the Asgard found a solution to a problem the Tollan couldn't. However, countering my own argument, it's stated time and again that the Tollan were not a warlike race and they might not have had any weapon research facilities in place to improve their technology.

Oh, and side note to the side, it'd be nifty to see the Breeders, but the Stargate was buried on their world and they'd need to be digging for it in order to make contact (Though I assume we could ship there on the Daedalus/Odyssey/Korolev). Also, the Tollan were knocked off long before the Ori and the Wraith were even hinted at, before we even started looking for Atlantis. Though the producers might have kicked them off for a similar reason, it wasn't because they posed a threat to those two species.

You make several interesting points. I remember the episode where the Asgard attempted to manipulate time now. I will revoke the previous claims about the Tollan and the Aschen being more advanced as a result. It seems that we both agree that the Nox appear to be extremely advanced. What I meant by the statement about the Tollan potentially helping against the Ori and Wraith was that they could help against a potential threat (although it is true that there is no way of proving of this so it is speculation). Regardless of why they were destroyed the Tollan would not have been as powerful as the Ori or Wraith. I agree that the idea for the Ori and Wraith had not yet been formed when the Tollan were destroyed. One thing that is related to this and is odd is that the Hebridans had advanced technology yet seem to have been mostly forgotten and are apparently not involved in the recent conflicts that plague the Earth humans and Jaffa. As far as I recall no explantion was ever given as to why they have not given more (or any) military help (surely Earth told them about the problems?). About the breeders: I thought that eventually they would attempt to enter the rubble of the compounds and bunkers to investigate, unless they had trouble clearing out the gas. Perhaps they have found the gate however they do not have access to many addresses.Nizhny 17:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I do agree that there has been no evidence to proove or disprove whether the Asgard can build there own stargate. I also strongly believe that the Asgard and the Nox are on par technology wise. My reasoning is that they were all part of an alliance of advanced races. Of course there may be evidence later on that suggest otherwise, but at the current moment, I see no reason why the Asgard would be inferior technologically wise to the Nox.

The Asgard were allied with the Nox however the Ancients were also part of this alliance. It definitely seems to be the case that the Ancients (and probably their "kin") are or possibly were substantially more advanced than the Asgard and probably the Nox. This does not prove that the Asgard are substantially less advanced than the Nox however it does indicate that the alliance was not necessarily an alliance of rough technological equals (or that the technology was freely shared by the Asgard and Nox up until the time that the Nox are actually seen in the series). It is possible that technology was shared among the four allies at some point and then these trades were eventually stopped.

Although this may be getting away from the Tollan for a bit of time there is something I want to ask that is relevant to the technology rankings. I am not going against what I said earlier, however the Aschen did help the earth defeat the Goa'uld (in the 2010 episode). Why then, did the Asgard not attempt to conduct wide spread liberation of Goa'uld held planets? Were the Asgard having trouble with the replicators consistently enough and long enough that they could not intervene? There are some other potential explanations that I have determined however I want to hear what other people have to say. I am not going back and saying the Aschen are more advanced than the Asgard because of this event though.Nizhny 15:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 The name 2 Merge 3 Similarities 4 Fair use rationale for Image:Triad.jpg 5 Fair use rationale for Image:Narim (Stargate SG-1).jpg

[edit] The name

Are the Tollan named for the ancient Mexican city of Tōllān (Tula), home of the Toltecs? If so, should this maybe get a mention in the article? —Darrell Manrique, 12.107.67.3 14:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah it probably should - This may show that the Goa'uld that took the Tollan's forefathers from earth was impersonating a meoamerican god and may even be the same one who took the Orbanians from Teotihuacan (Learning Curve - Season 3) -Joseph Reid

[edit] Merge

It has been suggested on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stargate that we merge these articles. We are facing more AFD and the Triad article is too small to justify an article of its own. Morphh 19:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Support

1. Morphh - See above
2. Bryan - Looks good to me. Bryan 20:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
3. While I'd prefer to keep them as two seperate articles (We have seperate pages for "United States" and "United State Supreme Court"), Triad is so short that it doesn't really need it's own article, and there's been a recent surge of delete requests for non-necessary Stargate articles; hopefully this provides an acceptable alternative to just deleting the info. JBK405 20:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC) (For the voter after me, I think we should keep this open for a while longer, it hasn't even been one day yet, some people haven't seen the announcement yet)
4. Support Four is enough, just do it. Tobyk777 22:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

[edit] Similarities

Similarities can be noted between the Tollan's attitude towards alien species, and that of the Time Lords in Doctor Who, the United Federation of Planets in Star Trek, the Watchers in Marvel Comics and also the Ancients in Stargate. The Tollan share even more with Star Trek's Federation, as both once shared technology with a less-advanced civilization with the destruction of the less-advanced civilization as a result. Both more-advanced civilizations decided from this incident to never interfere in such a way again.

I removed this from the main page because I feel that it's grasping at straws for a lot of its similarities, and that even the accurate similrities aren't really relevant to the article. The Tollan and the Federation might both not share technology with primitive people, but their interaction apart from that is almost completely different. Same with the Ancients. I'm actually not that familiar with the Time Lords (I'm only a recent fan of Doctor Who) or the Watchers, but if all they share is a reluctance to share technology then it's not that notable. JBK405 19:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I don't really know about that. I agree that the "watching" nature of the watchers and the time lords has little to do with the Tollan, but the shared hesitation to share technology with star trek's federation does seen noteworthy to me... Maartentje 19:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but the Federation does a lot more than simply not share technology. The Prime Directive forbids any form if interference or altering of a primitive society, whether it be altering their evolution, modifying their society, or artificially advancing their culture. This covers giving them technology, but also forbids anything as small as violating their laws or customs in the tiniest way. The Federation would rather a Federation citizen be put to death by a more primitive society than forcibly save them, becaus to do so would break their laws. The Tollan have defied the laws of more primitve races (Removed Klorel from Skaara against the wishes of the Goa'uld), altered Earth's understanding of science (It was small, but members of the the Tollan have described to SG-1 how their technlogy worked, even if SG-1 didn't quite understand it), and have cooperated in various government ventures (It's never actually seen in the show, but many times the SGC references how the Tollan are willing to give them help in certain dire circumstances).

I don't deny that there are similarities between the two, but ther are many more differences. JBK405 19:35, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I'm a Star Trek fan too, and even the contact between Earth and the Tollan would be a violation of the Prime Directive, I'm well aware... But as you said it yourself, there are some similarities, and at least we can point those out to the readers of this article... And I just added that the Prime Directive is more strict that the Tollan laws. Maartentje 20:01, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely, the similarities section is incorrect - it's stated by Picard in TNG that the Prime Directive was the result of First Contact with the Klingons which led to a long and destructive war... although that is contradicted, I think... but in any event, the Federation are frequently shown to help technologically inferior (although all warp capable, I think) races. So, I would say that the parallels aren't quite as straight forward as the article suggests.

I think that the section removed was correctly removed because it is original research.

However, regarding the Prime Directive: It only applies until said civilization has attained the capability of warp drive (or other such feasible method of interstellar travel) AND has a planetary government. There was a TNG episode where the civilization was about to test warp drive, so the Enterprise was sent to make first contact. The leader of the civilization said that they weren't ready to know that aliens exist, so the Enterprise left but one of the scientists that also knew of them asked to go with them.

The Tollan have never provided a way for the Tauri to reach the point to of sharing technology.

Neither have the Time Lords. But the Time Lords have basically withdrawn and stopped exploring the galaxies, except for Doctor Who and the Master. Val42 21:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Triad.jpg

Image:Triad.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:22, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Narim (Stargate SG-1).jpg

Image:Narim (Stargate SG-1).jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 15:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)