Talk:Toledo War

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Contents

[edit] Greatest Sports Rival In History?

"In modern times, conflict between the states is restricted primarily to the Michigan-Ohio State rivalry in American football,[59] an annual game the U.S. Congress declared "the greatest sports rivalry in history."[60]"

The bill referenced in the footnote was never passed. Check the footnote: "Latest Major Action: 1/30/2004 Referred to House subcommittee. Status: Referred to the Subcommittee on 21st Century Competitiveness." Since it hasn't been passed and it's nearing 2007, I'm removing the reference.

[edit] pictures

Some of the pictures on this page seem a little useless. The Maumee river picture looks like any other river so it dosen't really add anything. Also, John Q Adams and Andrew Jackson are well recognizable and not really heavily involved in the conflict so their pictures being included is a little overdoing it.

I do agree with removing at least some of the images. At this point, I feel we are bordering on oversaturing the article with images that are not essential to the article's purpose. I will try removing a couple of images in the near future. Hotstreets 03:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Northwest Territory Map

I am/have replaced the Northwest Territory map with a simpler one modified from the National Park Service. Please let me know what you think. Hotstreets 03:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, this becomes too redundant with the Mitchell Map, so I just made the NW Territory image slightly smaller. Hotstreets 03:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
After getting some extra time, I have simplified the existing Northwest Territory map and recolored it to match more closely the other maps already on the page. Hotstreets 03:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maumee River Picture

I replaced the image of the Maumee River with one from Toledo, Ohio. I think this shows the economic importance much better. Hotstreets 03:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some copyedits and corrections

In this edit, I made some changes that I want to explain. It is a bit of an exaggeration to say that in the Mitchell map the "southern tip of Lake Michigan is nearly due west of present day Detroit." Detroit is situated at the northern end of the strait connecting Lake St. Clair with Lake Erie. While modern maps show this strait as relatively short, thus perhaps understandably leaving room for some confusion, I don't think it is at all accurate to use the Mitchell map to place Detroit as due west of the southern extreme of Lake Michigan. Also, I'm pretty certain that the "territorial boundary" referred to in the Enabling Act of 1802 is the territorial boundary of the United States with Canada--while it does coincide with the Northwest Territorial boundary, I think it does not help to clarify anything to try to relate it to that. older ≠ wiser 02:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, those are nice edits. Good work. I'm going to work my way down copy-editing, working on flow and grammar, then rework the intro slightly. Do you think we should try for another Peer Review, or go straight to FAC#2? I'm leaning for Peer Review again, but what do you think? Hotstreets 03:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reworked Intro

Today, I reworked the lead section of the article to try and make it flow better. As you may remember, that was the chief criticism of our FAC, a poorly written lead. Please let me know what you think of it, and what (if anything) needs to be changed. Hotstreets 01:19, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

The article still meets and exceeds necessary requirements. It just needs to modify the tag of Image:RichardRush.jpeg as it is obsolete. Lincher 15:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I have done so. I appreciate the review. Hotstreets 21:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
It says that the war was bloodless, but in the article Bloodless War it says that the Toledo War was not bloodless. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.40.60.1 (talk) 16:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
There were no deaths in the Toledo War (well, no human deaths), but there was bloodshed. Two Stickney (That's Two, not his elder brother One) stabbed Deputy Sheriff Wood with a pen knife. The Bloodless war article defines bloodless war as a conflict that is resolved without death or injury. So, we have three options. 1. Edit this article 2. Edit "Bloodless war" 3. Leave them both alone and let them contradict each other. --Steven J. Anderson 02:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Economic significance

I've always been a little puzzled by this paragraph:

The Strip west of the Toledo area was a prime location for agriculture, due to its well-drained, fertile loam soil. The area has for many years been characterized by high per-acre productivities of corn, soybeans, and wheat. Michigan and Ohio both wanted what seemed strategically and economically destined to become an important port and a prosperous region.[1]

For one, I'm not so sure the region at that time was a "prime location for agriculture" or that it was "well-drained". Just before this, the area is refered to as the "Great Black Swamp". After the swamp was drained, it did indeed become prime agricultural land, but I'm not sure how much of a motivating factor that was in the dispute. The cited source for that paragraph doesn't really lend much support for the statements either (at least not that I can see). older ≠ wiser 01:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, my immediate fix was to change "was" to "is", since it is currently dominated by agricultural land... I'm thinking that may have accidentally been changed during the copy-editing process. I will look into the sources right now. Thanks, Hotstreets 01:20, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I am putting in a citation that mentions the Black Swamp region as one of Ohio's richest for agriculture. I will continue looking for mention of the crops grown there. Hotstreets 01:33, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I added another citation. I do believe that was a minor mistake, since now there are paragraphs focusing on both the canals and agriculture of the area. While the area was not at the time dominated by agriculture, it at least provides prospective regarding the value of the land now. Hotstreets 01:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The area at that time was dominated neither by swamps nor farms, but mostly by non-swamp forests, including some oak openings, along with some wet prairies. The GBS boundary is uncertain but most likely did not cover most of the Toledo Strip, exceptions being the Maumee Bay area and possibly parts of the Tiffin and Ottawa river corridors. See Katz reference in GBS article. It was the potential, not actual, value of the land for agriculture that would have made it valuable at the time, and which later became an actuality, not to mention any possible value of the timber. Jeeb 20:20, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
True enough, but I still don't think that the potential agricultural value was a significant factor in the dispute -- it was primarily about control of the mouth of the Maumee River and the soon to be built canals, which would have been seen as making Toledo into a major port and hub of commerce (which it did sort of become, though perhaps not to the degree expected since railroads eclipsed canals before the economic benefits of the canals could be fully realized. older ≠ wiser 21:23, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
According to D.W. Meinig, Shaping of America, vol. 2, the main issue fought over was Maumee Harbor (Toledo). He points out a contributing factor in why the harbor was so important: The Erie Canal had only just been finished around 1820 and people were flooding into the Midwest via Lake Erie. The existing port of Detroit was a longer way from Buffalo, farther north from the most desired lands of the time, and cut off further by the Great Black Swamp. A port at Maumee Harbor was apparently seen as ideal for settlers coming via the Erie Canal, seeking lands in west Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. Sorry if this has already been gone over, I've only just browsed here.. Pfly 02:18, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The Miami and Erie Canal was begun in 1825 and the Wabash and Erie Canal, which tied into the Miami and Erie, was begun in 1827-28. There was considerable optimism that these canals could emulate the profitability of the Erie Canal, which was a major factor driving the passions in the dispute. Hopes were that Toledo would become a canal boom town town like the New York cities on the Erie Canal. By and large, the area immediately surrounding Toledo was mostly seen as an obstacle that the canal would help penetrate. The agricultural value of the lands was only gradually realized as the swampy lands were drained (which required considerable time and effort on the part of individual farmers). older ≠ wiser 02:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Well I just went ahead and added a paragraph with the stuff I just posted here, citing Meinig. Feel free to change, remove, whatever: I am not overly familiar with the Toledo Strip/War. I enjoy learning about these kind of state vs state border disputes, of which there are a surprising number. Most wikipedia pages on them are just stubs, but this one on the Toledo Strip is excellent and detailed! (which makes me hesitant to edit it, but oh well I did anyway). Pfly 02:55, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I just wanted to let you I went through and copyedited your additions. Nice additions to the article. I did take out a couple of little things just to tighten up the paragraph, and then split it into two. Thanks! Hotstreets 04:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, reasonable argument regarding access to river and control of canals, but regarding agriculture, again, most of the contested area was probably not swamp--the Maumee Bay area being a fairly small portion of the total area. Special drainage wouldn't have been needed in most places west of Toledo, just land clearing. In general, control of land is always desireble, for numerous reasons including those discussed here. Jeeb 15:09, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Contemporaneous descriptions of the area uniformly indicate extensive stretches of swamp land and that a fair amount of effort was required to drain it. The PBS documentary indicates The Black Swamp made northwest Ohio an undesirable land and, consequently, it was settled very late (1850-1900) and then settlement was unusually difficult. In any case, most of the area of the Great Black Swamp was not within the contested area of the Toledo Strip and much of the land within the strip was indeed prime agricultural land -- though development was impeded by the presence of the Swamp, which made land access from the east difficult.
To the point of the Great Black Swamp not being within the Toledo Strip, recent edits seem to imply that it was the presence of the Swamp that made Detroit a less desirable site for a canal -- are there specific citations to back this up? If anything, it seems that the proximity of the swamp would have made Toledo the less desirable port. I suspect that the perceived advantage of the Toledo port over the Detroit port was that the Maumee River and the proposed canal systems would connect western Lake Erie with the Ohio and Mississippi rivers more directly than would be possible in Detroit. older ≠ wiser 18:21, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The Meinig citation I added does mention the Great Black Swamp as one of Detroit's shortcomings compared to Toledo, but not in terms of future canals, rather simply for the immediate need for people and goods to move between Lake Erie / Erie Canal and the farms of Ohio and Indiana. He also mentions Detroit as appearing to have less potential than sites along the south shore of Lake Erie for canals into the Ohio and Indiana farmlands, but not so much due to the swamp as simple distance. Sandusky is mentioned along with Toledo as being seen as ideal places for canals to be built south into the farmlands. Sorry if I worded anything poorly. Pfly 19:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toledo War and cabinet counties, and Kent County, Michigan and List of Michigan county name etymologies

Dear Mr. Anderson:

These were the grateful acknowledgments of the Michigan legislature for the outcome of the Toledo War to the administration of Andrew Jackson. I would suggest that you actually LOOK at the internal links before you delete them.

I did not yet put in the Kent County, Michigan link, but it probably should be there.

If you want text that explains this, I'd be happy to oblige. However, I'm sure that once you've read the material, you can do a better job than I of putting it into context of the larger dispute.

In fact, as the first few paragraphs of the Toledo War article suggest, the result was publicly played out as a victory for Ohio and a loss for Michigan. In fact, the Michigan legislature thereafter treated this as a victory, with congratulations all around for the outgoing Andrew Jackson administration. It must be noted that the resolution was a negotiated one, where Michigan's New York lawyer (Kent) helped wring out a big piece of relatively uncharted (and very rich) territory in exchange for the loss. While in an encyclopedic article one could never accuse the Michigan legislature of 'shedding crocodile tears', their actions tend to support such an interpretation. The reaction of the legislature should be put into this article, as it gives a meaningful interpretation to the undisputed events. That's my respectful suggestion, anyway.

If you have any questions, you know where to find me.

I trust that you will see the wisdom of my revisions, and the error or your revision.

Best to you. 7&6=thirteen (talk) 23:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)Stan 7&6=thirteen (talk) 00:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)Stan

Do you have any sources for the reaction of the legislature that you describe? Nearly every account that I've read on the matter seems to indicate that a large portion of the Michigan population was not at all happy with the outcome (at least at the time). It was seen as agreed to under considerable duress. Michigan was forced to accept the outcome because it faced the loss of considerable financial resources from the federal government -- essentially, the state would have been in extremely dire straits if it did not agree to the "compromise" -- and there was considerable dissatisfaction with the manner in which the second convention was convened. The potential value of the Upper Peninsula was almost completely unknown at the time. The first prominent report of the potential mineral wealth came with Douglas Houghton's report in 1841 and the first commercial operations began in the mid-1840s. Iron and other minerals were not exploited for some years to come.
Also, regarding the naming of the Cabinet Counties -- considering that these counties were created in 1829 -- it is hard to see how they are an acknowledgment of legislature for the outcome of the 1835-1836 Toledo War. older ≠ wiser 04:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear BK:

You're right. Consequently, I corrected the passage in List of Michigan county name etymologies. Very clearly, the honors came before the admission to statehood.

On the other hand, when was Kent County named? The Toledo War would seem to be a real tie there, or not?

7&6=thirteen (talk) 04:44, 31 December 2007 (UTC)Stan

Thank you for that explanation, 7&6. I only deleted the link because the reason for inclusion didn't seem obvious to me and I thought deleting was the best way to encourage a discussion here. It's easy enough to re-add it if warranted. Do I gather from this discussion that the consensus is that the link should be left out? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Kent County was created in 1831. I've not found any specific details about service that James Kent rendered or even when it was rendered. older ≠ wiser 05:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Look here, older≠wiser. It's the State of Michigan website and it says that Kent County was organized in 1836. Also, could we all try to indent our posts in a way that makes some logical sense? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 07:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
There is often a difference between the date a county was created and the date that county government was organized. Counties were frequently created and named, but were in effect nothing more than lines drawn on a map. They were attached for administrative purposes to other established counties. Only when the population of a county reached a sufficient threshold would the government be organized, so there is no contradiction between Kent County being created in 1831 and organized in 1836. The source you mention only lists the date of organization. Also, not sure if the indent comment was meant for me, but as I was replying to 7&6=thirteenm I indented my reply accordingly. If I was replying to you, I would have made and additional indentation. older ≠ wiser 16:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, well this is interesting -- it may be that James Kent is not the correct person after all -- the book indicates that the Kent County was named "in honor of Chancellor Kent, a New York lawyer, who died 19 years previous to the organization of the this county". That would place his death at about 1817. However, this doesn't necessarily mean he was not in some way involved with the Toledo Strip dispute, as it went on for many decades. But I will need to do some digging to find some additional information about the this person. older ≠ wiser 17:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Since this is veering off-topic for the purposes of this article, I'm moving this continued discussion of the naming of Kent County moved to Talk:Kent County, Michigan. older ≠ wiser 17:57, 31 December 2007 (UTC)