Talk:Tokyu Corporation

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Adopt the proposal 1 below. The current title (Tokyo Kyuko Electric Railway) is apparently incorrect. While the entire real-life situation is messy, I hope editors will work it out (admittedly, I barely can), so I'll perform only the technical part of the move. Duja► 08:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Tokyo Kyuko Electric Railway → Tokyu Corporation — The English name of the company, as can be proven by a bajillion references, including the official homepage. The same stock number 9005 turns up when searching for either the English name or the Japanese name. Some references:

• http://www.ir.tokyu.co.jp/titleview.cgi?hidTitlename=headline_e&hidSubname=headline_e&hidLanguage=E
• http://www.ir.tokyu.co.jp/files/pdf/er_200412_0.pdf
• http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=9005.T
• http://quote.yahoo.co.jp/q?d=t&s=9005

—Tokek 12:29, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support - Because "Tokyu Corporation" is clearly the name used by the company itself. (I think "Tokyo Kyuko Electric Railway" was either the original English name used or is just a direct translation of the Japanese name.) DAJF 13:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose weakly - "Tokyu Corporation" is used as the English name of the holding company. See [1] for example. So, maybe we need to change Tokyu Group to a DAB page (redirected from Tokyu Corporation) that better distinguishes between the railway, the department store, and the parent of them all. But, I don't think that pointing Tokyu Corporation to this arm of the company (dominant, though it may be) is the best solution. Neier 22:20, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment It appears to be that the railway company is the holding company of the group: "To strengthen Tokyu Corporation's position as the business holding company of the Tokyu Group..." (PDF) Also, I've created a subsection in the Discussion section which hopefully you could expand: particularly, I'm not sure what you would propose for this article if it isn't going to be renamed to Tokyu Corporation. —Tokek 05:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I don't see the quoted passage in that document; but, I like the portion on the first page that talked about the "takeover" of the department store. Gotta love Japanese corporate structures, where A owns part of B which buys part of A. Wonder if Horiemon has a wikipedia account. There's 東急グループは、東京急行電鉄を中核企業とする２９０社９法人（２００６年３月末現在）からなる企業グループです。 [2] that says that the railroad company is the centerpiece of the group. But, page four of this pdf makes my head spin. Neier 13:43, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Oops, seems like I linked to the wrong PDF, and now I can't find the original. Sorry! —Tokek 14:19, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose per Neier. I agree that redirecting Tokyu Corporation to a Tokyu Group disambig page would likely be the best option. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 01:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose The railway operations make up only about half of revenue and even less of the profit of the Tokyu Corporation which has at it's core real estate and retail interests. I would redirect Tokyu Corporation to Tokyu Group. Alternatively write a new Tokyu Corporation article setting out the structure with some discussion about the synergies and natural strenghts of operating a consolidated retail/real estate/railway group (common to all private railway operators in Kanto area). In any case leave the railway article as is. Alex Sims 11:17, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not sure what you have in mind for "the railway article." This article has been about Tokyu Corporation since its inception, so if we were to create another article about this corporation, that would be redundant work. Then we'd have to surgically remove the Tokyu Corporation bit out of this article to make it something else which I'm not really sure what. Maybe you have a "List of Tokyu Lines" article in mind? Or maybe "Railway operations of Tokyu Corporation" sub article? If this isn't the Tokyu Corporation article, and if we temporarily ignore the portions that state that this article is about the Tokyu Corporation, then what is it? Is the shortcomings you see in this article as a Tokyu Corporation article something that couldn't be resolved by expanding it? I wasn't aware that this article could be seen as something besides being the Tokyu Corporation article. Which is new insight. I thought the issue was about what name to use when referring to the company on Wikipedia but apparently there are other issues at hand. —Tokek 12:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - The railway company is only one part of the Tokyu Corporation/Group, and should be kept as a separate article focusing on the railway. See Seibu Railway (as distinct from Seibu Lions and Seibu (department store)), Odakyu Electric Railway (as distinct from Odakyu Group), and others for precedent and example of the approach which should be taken for consistency's sake. LordAmeth 13:38, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose — According to Bloomberg, Tokyu Corporation (TYO: 9005) does other stuff besides "rail transportation", such as "bus transportation, truckload services, and air transportation" as well as operate "department stores, real estate leasing, and hotel businesses". This article should remain as the "railway service" article without the "Tokyu Corporation" name designation.--Endroit 02:08, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
• Support - This is an article about the entity named Tōkyō Kyūkō Dentetsu Kabushiki-gaisha, which directly operates railway and indirectly other Tokyu Group businesses. Tōkyō Kyūkō Dentetsu Kabushiki-gaisha should be translated as Tokyu Corporation because it is the official English name of the company[3]. It is natural that the article is mainly about the railway because it is under the direct control of the company and others can be covered by Tokyu Group, but it is not a good reason to name the article with the non-official name of the company. We already have several articles on Japanese railway companies without "Railway" in article titles, such as Kintetsu and Keio Corporation. --Sushiya 04:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

[edit] Disambiguation page resurrected

I've resurrected the Tokyu disambiguation page to satisfy our... disambiguation needs, unless we later decide we want the disambig page in another location. Seems like I previously replaced the disambig page with a redirect, but retrospectively I'd say whether the railway company or the group is "primary article" is debateable / ambiguous. —Tokek 04:27, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal(s) outlined

First, I am not seeing anyone disagreeing with my observation that the name of the railway company is called "Tokyu Corporation", so I will assume this is undisputed until I am told otherwise.

The scope of the discussion currently goes slightly beyond simply just the renaming of this one article because there's disagreement about where we want to locate multiple article(s) and disambig page(s). To clarify, I am rewriting my proposal below. Please feel free to add an outline of your own proposal. —Tokek 05:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

While the official site of the railroad company uses "Tokyu Corporation" in English on the site, the Japanese title would translate to "Tokyu Railway Corporation". I think it would be better to have Tokyu Corporation redirect to Tokyu Group as there are other companies in the group which could be referred to as "Tokyu Corporation" (Tokyu Car Corporation, for example). This would keep them disambiguated. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 06:36, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, there are several user-submitted translations of the Japanese name available (as opposed to the official English name of this company):

• "Tokyo Kyuko Electric Railway"
• "Tokyu Electric Railway"
• "Tokyu Railway Corporation"

I can even add my own translation to the list: "Tokyo Express Electric Railway Corporation," but I still much prefer the real name of the company. It's a possibility that there are other less known companies that are also called "Tokyu Corporation," although I don't know of any. Template:Otheruses and ilk are more suited for the disambiguation needs that you describe. I thought this was pretty straight forward, but I'm glad I didn't file this under the non-controversial moves section at WP:RM.

Then there's also this talk about changing the Tokyu Group article somehow. It already lists the companies within the group (including Tokyu Car Corporation). Also if we replace it with a bland disambig page, we would have to relocate the current article about Tokyu Group to somewhere else. This sounds like a bad idea, and it's probably not the only way to go ahead, whatever the objective is.—Tokek 09:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

The fact that the group and the railroad share the same website is really annoying. Something is named Tokyu Corporation for certain. According to the PDF I linked above (page 4), it looks like there are two levels of holding companies - Tokyu Group (which holds Tokyu Corporation), and Tokyu Corporation, which holds everything else. The Ja: wiki articles have all the subsidiaries on ja:東急グループ, while ja:東京急行電鉄 is strictly about trains. I've made a proposal that I don't feel very strongly about below. It may open a new line of thinking, though. Neier 13:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no company beneath Tokyu Corporation that's doing railways, instead Tokyu Corporation is the railway company (businessweek link above shows same stock number) AND the holding company (above mentioned PDF link). It's not that different companies are sharing the same name, instead there is only one company here that's doing both. Tokyu Group is just the name for the group of companies and there is no such company called "Tokyu Group". Kind of like how Commonwealth of Nations doesn't refer to a single country but just a group of countries. Both the English and Japanese Wikipedia articles for Tokyu Group does not describe "Tokyu Group" as a company. —Tokek 01:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

According to Bloomberg, Tokyu Corporation (TYO: 9005) does other stuff besides "rail transportation", such as "bus transportation, truckload services, and air transportation" as well as operate "department stores, real estate leasing, and hotel businesses". This article is clearly intended to be about the railway service only. Therefore "Tokyu Corporation" and "Tokyo Kyuko Dentetsu" should exist as 2 separate articles.--Endroit 01:31, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, "Tokyo Kyuko Dentetsu" does other stuff besides rail transportation. However I was pointing out that this is the company that does rail transportation and not some other company in the Tokyu Group. "Tokyo Kyuko Dentetsu" and "Tokyu Corporation" refers to the same company: one is the Japanese name while the other is the English name, much like how "Tokyo Daigaku" and "University of Tokyo" refers to the same university. I am not against splitting this article, as long as there's a clear idea what the two articles are going to be about and the article titles don't refer to the same thing. Also As of now I don't see this move request and split request as conflicting with each other. —Tokek 09:10, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

"Tokyo Kyuko Dentetsu" is also the common term for the railway service, regardless of the company name, and the article was intended to be about the railway service only. No sense redefining the scope (and the name) of this article. Just create another article about the company, and call it "Tokyu Corporation".--Endroit 09:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of what you think "Tokyo Kyuko Dentetsu" should refer to, it is also the name of the company, so I would discourage having two articles with titles that refer to the same company. Perhaps "Railway services of Tokyu Corporation" would be a better name for what you are looking for, but while there may be discussion on the necessity for a split, I don't see how a split or non-split argument would affect the need for this reanme. There was no "redifining" occuring here. The original version [4] by Sekicho calls "Tokyo Kyuko Electric Railway" a "major private railway operator," in other words it was referring to the compnay. Sekicho also references "Tokyu Corporation." It sounds like he may have correctly equated "Tokyo Kyuko Electric Railway" with "Tokyu Corporation" but whether or not he actually did equate the two seems to be an insignificant point. —Tokek 00:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Going clockwise from the Yokohama side, we have: Keikyu, Tokyu, Odakyu, Seibu, Tobu, Keisei. (Did I miss any?) These should all continue to have an article each about their railway service, and that's an absolute must for some editors here, that's all. In common usage, "Dentetsu" means "Electrical Railways" (or "Railways") in English, regardless of their individual corporate structure and names, so I believe that should be honored as well.--Endroit 02:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

If you must rename the article, come up with a naming convention that works for all Dentetsu (電鉄, Dentetsu^?) articles, and keep our Dentetsu (電鉄, Dentetsu^?) articles separate from our Kabushiki Kaisha (株式会社, Kabushiki Kaisha^?) articles.--Endroit 03:04, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment I dont know whether this would be useful for the discussion or whether you already know this but Tokyu is a shortened version of Tokyo Kyuko. Shortening long English names is a common way of naming companies in Japan. In Japan, the railway is also commonly referred to as Tokyu as opposed to Tokyo Kyuko. The group was created so that the railway company can expand their business into other areas. Tbo ¹⁵⁷talk 12:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal 1

Proposed by: Tokek 05:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• The disambiguation page: Tokyu
• Article about the group: Tokyu Group. Article title is the name of the group.
• Article about the railway company: Tokyu Corporation. Article title is the name of the railway company.

• • Support - For reasons given in original survey. Tokyo Kyuko Electric Railway is simply a fictional English translation created in the past by presumably well-meaning editors. The combination of article titles in Proposal 1 most closely follows reality. DAJF 01:47, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - But we don't need to make Tokyu Corporation as a pure railway article. It's a railway-plus-holding company. Tokyu Corporation article may include a section about Tokyu Group (with the line Main article: Tokyu Group). --Sushiya 05:07, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Yep, I agree with this one. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 23:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposal 2

Proposed by: Neier 13:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• The disambiguation page: Tokyu (with redirects from Tokyu Corporation and Tokyu Group)
• Article about the group: Tokyu Corporation (holding company)
• Article about the railway company: Tokyu Corporation (railway)

Proposal 3

Proposed by: LordAmeth 19:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• The disambiguation page: Tokyu
• Article about the group: Tōkyū Group or Tōkyū Corporation, I'm not really particular
• Article about the railway company: Tokyo Kyūkō Electric Railway

• Conditional support — On condition that line 2 above should be Tokyu Corporation (or Tokyu Group) without macrons. The "company" designation should be moved from line 3 to line 2, but that detail can be worked out later.--Endroit 02:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Proposal 4

Proposed by: Endroit 01:35, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

• The disambiguation page: Tokyu
• Article about the group: Tokyu Group (may be merged into Tokyu Corporation below)
• Article about the company: Tokyu Corporation (TYO: 9005)
• Article about the railway service: Tokyo Kyūkō Dentetsu (railway service only)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.