Talk:Tokaji

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[edit] Discussion header

Juro, OK if you insist then include the Slovak terms for types of wine in this article Scott Moore 13:38, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This Juro guy is sick. Slovakian Tokaji - muhahahahaha forditas (Slovakian: forditas) :))))))

Why are you blaming ME???????? I am just collecting informations and opinions here, that's all. And ... maybe you should read newspapers and books occasionally...Juro 00:17, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Szamorodni is Polish??? Xixixixi. Just note that there is no such word in the Polish language. On the other hand, in Slovak "samorodny" means something like "grown on its own" or "self-bearing" or "self-growing". If you want to adopt samorodne into Hungarian, you end up with szamorodni. But this interpretation would not fit Hungarian national myth. And note that Tokaj means a place where two rivers conflux. In old slavic it was Stokaj. Note that there is a confluence of two rivers at Tokaj village. And a hill named Tokaj in the Slovak part of the Tokaj region. Again where two rivers conflux. Anyway, Hungarian nationalism hinges on things like palinka (palenka==distilate in Slovak, from palit == to distil), Tokaji (partly Slovak), Petofi (serbo-croat origin) etc etc...Looks like a nation with pretty low confidence...BTW note how many loan words from the Slavic languages and German the Hungarian language has. great many (Takacs = Tkac = weaver, Meszaros = Mesiar = butcher, Kovacs= Kovac=smith are some of the most common surnames in Hungary. Nr. 3 is Toth = Slovak, Nr 5 or 6 is Horvath = Croat.....) Best, AladarP

I just don't understand how you could make such an assumption about the confidence of a nation based upon a natural method (loanwords) by which language changes. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 16:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

sorry for that, it was an unintended implication. The point was that if one has low confidence in him/her-self, only then he/she comes up with national myths to justify things. And what's most funny is that many hungarian sources of national pride are actually not genuine. (similar for Czech: slivovica is a plum destilate but in Czech plum is "svestka", not sliva, like in SLovak. Or take SLovakia: bryndza is a typical Slovak sheep-cheese, but the word is of Rumanian origin with the meaning as trivial as - cheese.) The loanword issue was just a marginal note. What I really hate is the penetration of national myths into national histories.AladarP

NOTE: samorodny exists in Polish: meaning: natural. szamorodni basically is a hungarized version of samorodny of Slovak or Polish origin. But what did Poles do in the Tokaji region??? There were none (excpet for visitors, of course)! It was rather the Slovak indigenous population that named this kind of wine samorodny. AladarP

You don't know what did the Poles did in Tokaji?? They bought the wine (or more specifically, significant exports went to Poland and hence Polish traders visited Tokaj). If the word szamorodni came from Slovak rather than Polish then why wasn't it recorded before the 19th century (after all, Slovaks had lived in the region since before szamorodni wine even existed)? Scott Moore 15:44, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I definitely agree with you about national myths. Everyone has their national myths that get in the way of objectively studying their history and with Hungarians it is doubly difficult :) . --Stacey Doljack Borsody 18:05, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Juro, why mixing viti/viniculture with other ongoing Hungarian-Slovakian disputes? Fifuszfc (talk) 20:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Aladar, the point is Scott's it was the Polish who bought the most amount of Tokaji wine in the 15-16th century. Of course, there is a similarity between the Polish and Slovakian versions of the word 'szamorodni': both are Slavic languages. Fifuszfc (talk) 20:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Sborsody, it is also diffucult with you, Slovakians. I wonder when can we agree even on very basic things like the continuity between the Hungarian Kingdom and the Hungarian Republic... The Slovakians are equal to Hungarians, this fact has nothing to do with the language, the viticulture or the form of rule. Sorry for being off. Fifuszfc (talk) 20:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Could I remind my fellow editors that this is not a discussion site. Please keep material and postings not related to writing an encyclopedic article on Tokaji wines out of this talk page. I would appreciate it if you instead invested your time in providing this article with appropriate inline citations to reliable sources. Thank you for your understanding. Tomas e (talk) 21:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gustav III of Sweden & Tokaji wine

This article claims that Gustav III, King of Sweden, never had any other wine to drink. Now, since it was a well-known luxury product of its times, I don't have any problems in believing that he did drink the stuff, and probably liked it. But saying that he never drank any other wine is a pretty strong statement, and one that needs to be backed up with an inline reference, with page number if it refers to a book, which has to be credible. (Remember that many wine books and articles are more marketing-oriented than well-researched, and that some of their statements may need to be read with skepticism when forming the basis of an encyclopedic article.) What I do know is that Gustav III was a great francophile (French was probably the only language spoken at court), and that the wine most commonly imported to Sweden at the time was Rhenish, along with some French and various fortified wines. (I.e., a situation not entirely unlike the UK, but with probably more focus on Rhenish wine.) The contemporary poet Carl Michael Bellman, who had close connections with the court and whose lyrics frequently are about drinking, drank French wine the first time he was dead drunk, and has frequent references to Rhenish wine in his lyrics, but to the best of my knowledge, never to Tokaji. With that background, I would be very surprised if French and Rhenish wine weren't served at Gustav III's court, but a quick online search unearthed no Swedish web sources about his drinking habits.
Come to think of it, some of the other claims of Tokaji drinkers should also be backed up with inline references, because this whole section is bordering on being non-encyclopedic. Tomas e (talk) 17:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Made a small start with citations, but RS yet to back up that Gustaf III was anything like an exclusive drinker :P Just a small add to the Bellman note above, *somewhat* off-topic, just because it touches on an interest of mine.. it's my impression that his vast lyric references to beverages are mostly as generic as "vin" and "Bränvin" (although several mentions of "Rödt Vin" and more specific "Hoglands vin" (Bordeaux), Frontignac (Muscat de Frontignan?) quite a bit "Mjöd" and "dubbelt Öl" and otherwise only 1 mention of Rhine I've found as in "friends [bottles] from Mosel and Rhen") MURGH ^disc. 19:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)