Talk:Tofu

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Tofu was one of the Everyday life good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

	Article milestones

Date

Process

Result

June 17, 2006

Good article nominee

Listed

January 5, 2008

Good article reassessment

Delisted

Current Status: Delisted good article

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[edit] Neutral Point of View in question

"Nevertheless, this is a single study and by itself, does not show conclusively that soy isoflavones cause brain atrophy." This sentence in the Isoflavones sections sounds like original research and a violation to the NPOV policy. Anyway, it doesn't sound encyclopedic to me. Will remove if no objection. --Farzaneh (talk) 16:15, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brain atrophy study and uncited aluminum claim

In the "Isoflavones" section (under "Nutrition and health information") there's an uncited claim about the study "Brain aging and midlife tofu consumption" (L.R. White et al.):

"A possible reason behind the correlation between brain atrophy and tofu consumption in L.R. White's study is that the individual subjects in the study have consumed tofu from the same source, a local tofu manufacturer in Hawaii that processed the tofu in heated aluminum containers. The aluminum that was released from the containers may have been a significant contributing factor to the brain atrophy of these individuals. Aluminum is a neurotoxin thought by some to be a cause of Alzheimer's Disease."

This is a serious claim and needs to have a citation (other than the ones that it has on the dangers of aluminum). This text was added by an anonymous user on 26 Dec 2006 (and is the only contribution by that IP address).

I submit that this text should be removed from the article in a week's time unless someone can come up with a citation for it. I should note that the study itself did not supply the tofu (this is clear from the abstract). Of course it is still possible that there was some favorite local tofu maker who used aluminum, but this is the sort of claim that would be sketchy even with a citation, and we don't even have that.

I'm a vegetarian and eat tofu and am disturbed by this study, but perpetuating this uncited claim is not the way to deal with it. Kfgauss 21:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I added in the info about the dangers of aluminum and did a fairly poor job of citing it (but cited it I did, nonetheless). I intended to come back and fix up the rest of the paragraph - I'm not sure who put the aluminum container info in there - but I got distracted. If it's of use to anyone, I did find a website that suggested high concentrations of aluminum in the soy-products used in the study, likely due to processing methods, but I was wary about adding it in because the website was kind of vegan and didn't cite its own sources. Regardless, something needs to be done about this section. That brain atrophy study really freaked me out before I went out and actually read something about it. Bloodbeard 17:41, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the paragraph. Feel free to add it back or something similar if you find a good citation. A random website that doesn't cite sources could well have gotten it from this article. Kfgauss 19:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Western/Eastern

What year are we in? 1870? Are these archaic terms really appropriate in this day and age?

[edit] Author mistaken about seitan?

The author says in the lead that "Wheat gluten, or seitan, in its steamed and fried forms, is often mistakenly called "tofu" in Asian or vegetarian dishes." I disagree with the "often", and don't believe this sentence belongs in the article in any case. I have never encountered, or heard of, a single instance of seitan being called tofu either in a recipe or in a restaurant. This, despite having been a vegetarian since 1971 and having been in scores of restaurants (vegetarian and non-vegetarian; Asian and non-Asian; macrobiotic and non-macrobiotic; in half a dozen states in the U.S.A) in which tofu dishes were served. Brief Googling failed to find any reference to instances of confusion between seitan and tofu in any place other than this article. Thus it seems that while perhaps the author has observed an incident or incidents in which seitan was misidentified as tofu, there is no justification for regarding this as a common mistake. In general this article seems quite well done, which makes this reference to seitan even more surprising. Publius3 19:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protein-Oil Phase

I personally like the sound of P-O Phase, but I think it is just a bit too technical and chemistry based. Does anybody think so too? Sjschen 22:17, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, although they might understand the individual words, nobody knows what this phrase means. Badagnani 23:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Surgery

I did some major surgery on the article kinda forgot to post here before hand. Sorry about that... Please comment, and should Varieties and Uses be recombined? Maybe that was not such a bad idea after all. Yes, I'm crazy about tofu. -- Sjschen 06:16, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Special Types

Shanshui Doufu (山水豆腐) to my understanding is "mountain spring water tofu". I see it often in my supermarket and I've always taken the name to be just a marketing ploy; using "fresh" and "natural" spring water to make tofu. As such, I'm not sure if that can really be counted as a special type of tofu. However, there may be another type of Shaushui tofu that I don't know about. Please elaborate. :)

As for, Almond tofu (杏仁豆腐), I understand that it is silken tofu plus almond flavouring. Whether tofu made of almond milk exists or if it can actually be done I don't know. Once again, please elaborate. :) --Sjschen 05:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vitamins

What vitamins does Tofu have? -- 17 Jul 2003 . . User:Nahum

as a reply to Nahum:

I did a quick google search, and found this:

http://farmsoy.home.mindspring.com/nutrition.htm

Not too sure about this, since it is from a company. It might be better to get more universal values, like from a government nutrition agency or something. It seems that it doesn't have any vitamin A or B though.

and this is my first time talking back into Wikipedia instead of being talked to by it. Sorry if I'm not using proper protocol or something.

--Timpeters 16:58, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I believe those figures are from a government agency. Food manufacturers are required by US law to print correct nutritional information on every product they manufacture and ship. (tim, hope you don't mind, I formatted your comments a little). -- wulong 22:39, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Name

Doufu is from China, not from Japan. We have to use Chinese Pinyin "doufu", not Japanese Romaji "tofu".

Nonsense. The established English name is 'tofu'. Insisting on 'doufu' because it 'comes from China' is as good an example as any I have seen of Chinese chauvinism.

Indeed, tofu belongs to the world. As well, I don't see how it can be proved that the spelling "tofu" came from Japanese Romaji, and not from a nonstandard Romanization of Mandarin, or a Romanization of one of the dialects in which the first syllable is aspirated. — Pekinensis 16:34, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hear hear! --Sjschen 04:45, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Moot point, I think, as the first letter in the pinyin: doufu is practically unvoiced, and resembles english t almost as much as english d.

That is wrong, T in pinyin is an aspirated voiceless sound, D is unaspirated voiceless. The English initial T is aspirated voiceless and English D is unaspirated voiced. Due to partial de-voicing of "d" in English in certain situations, the only reliable phonetic difference between initial /d/ and /t/ in English is aspiration, not voicing, just as in Chinese. Therefore to the ear of most English speakers the Chinese pronunciation (doufu) sounds more like an English "d" than an English "t". LDHan 12:30, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

My dictionary (American Heritage) says English "tofu" comes from Japanese. Badagnani 23:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

There you have it, referenced information. Put it in the article. --DannyWilde 00:58, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems that it is called "bean curd" Down Under: [1][2][3][4] (and Google provides 864 more hits as well). Badagnani 17:37, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm from Australia, and I've never seen it called bean curd. Everyone knows what tofu is. — mæstro ^t/c 11:47, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes, okay, point taken, but you get 94 000 for "tofu" ;-) Grace Note 01:05, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recipe

I removed the recipe. It saddens me that there is no place for recipes in Wikipedia, but that seems to be the convention. In any case, this particular recipe needs considerable work before it is ready to be presented in an encyclopedia. Some of the information could be extracted and put back into the article in a more encyclopedic way.

Pekinensis

Recipes can be put to http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook. As soon as the Cookbook has a well-stocked category for Tofu recipes, we can link to it from here. As long as there are only two recipes (Tofu pancake; Agedashi tofu), it wouldn't make much sense, would it? – Wikipeditor 20:28, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Make Your Own Tofu

Ingredients: Soy Milk:

½ pint dried Soy Beans

1 Gallon Water

Tofu:

1 Gallon Soy Milk (as made above)

2 teaspoons Epsom Salts

Method:

Soy Milk:

Soak the beans in water overnight.

With an excess of water, liquidise the beans to form a light slurry. Make up to 1 gallon.

Quickly bring to the boil and boil for only 20 minutes (if you boil longer, it will curdle and this is not the correct time to start the cheese process).

Cool quickly and filter the milk through muslin or cheese cloth.

Tofu:

Take one gallon of soy milk and add the Epsom Salts. Stir and it will curdle. Leave for around 30 minutes (adjust the time and the amount of salts according to experience with any particular source of Soy beans).

Strain through a cheese cloth. The liquid (equivalent to whey in the calf vomit process) is an extremely powerful detergent and can be used for cleaning purposes (including washing the dishes). Slowly squeeze the liquid out of the curds and gradually compress them - this can be done by butting weights on the cheese cloth bag (as it has become) or by putting it in a press. Stop squeezing when the curds are firm.

Variations:

Tofu has almost no flavour of its own (your palette needs to have been meat free for a number of years before you can appreciate the subtleties of tofu) so it will quite easily take on other flavours - add them before pressing.

Add various herbs.

Add garlic and /or onion.

Try smoking it (putting it in wood smoke - not wrapping it in paper and trying to set fire to it)

Storage:

Store in a refrigerator under water that is changed daily. Will keep various times according to how well it is prepared but usually around one week maximum.

Serving suggestions:

To cook with it, chop it up into half inch cubes and deep fry it (in hot oil but with the heat turned off so that it doesn't stick to the bottom) until browned, drain it and then mix it in with any sauce you like. It can alter the emphasis on any meal, curries, even a pasta sauce.

Otherwise, it can be mashed up or chopped up and put in with salads or marinated with salad dressing first.

Voila! You've got your tofu!

--BugzPal 12:17, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I would also like to share this tofu recipe...its fun and easy! Tofu Sloppy Joes Ingredients:

   * 1 lb firm tofu
   * 2 Tblsp oil
   * 1 Tblsp chili powder
   * 2 Tblsp minced green pepper
   * 2 Tbsp minced onion
   * 2 Tblsp minced parsley
   * 1 tsp prepared mustard
   * 1 cup water
   * 1 cup water
   * 1/4 cup catsup
   * 2 tsp cider vinegar
   * 2 tsp brown sugar
   * Salt and pepper to taste

Instructions:

  1. Mash tofu and mince the green pepper, onion and parsley
  2. Heat oil in a large frying pan, fry tofu with chili powder and veggies, 5 minutes, on high
  3. Add everything else and simmer 10 minutes. Serve over buns with fixin's

Enjoy :) --BrooklynCupcake24 13:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translations of the name but no recipe?

This seems a bit odd to me. Why is there a list of different translations of the name in the article, while the recipe is deemed unfit? The recipe seems much more encyclopedia-like to me than that list, if any one of them are. // E23 11:58, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I guess the reason is that there are numerous kinds of Tofu and they are called different names depending on their consistency. Unfortunately there is only one English name for all of these variety. Usually some kind of disambiguation is required when you try to do a many-to-one mapping. Or else the reader cannot tell one variety from the next. Kowloonese 20:24, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

The answer is that there is a separate for recipes. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a cookbook. You can describe generally how something is made so people can understand the process, but actually ingredient-do this-do that recipes are not here. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 05:25, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mishmash

Unfortunately, the article right now is a strange mishmash of some Japanese and some Chinese words/phrases. Could someone help sort them out? Fuzheado | Talk 05:55, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Let's start from the top. The stuff is called "tofu" in English, regardless what it's called in any other language.Grace Note 06:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This article is not just a strange mishmash of Chines words/phrases, it's also a strange collection of western and eastern conceptions of tofu. It should be noted that this is likely due to the fact that tofu available in a western market is sometimes rather different from that found in "strictly" asian markets. Tofu cooked on a grill? The western form can be used in this fashion but asian firm tofu is so soft that it will disintegrate on the grill. Taste and texture like chicken? There is a vegeterian "chicken" made from wheat gluten but it's definitely not tofu. Coagulated with acids?...nope never seen it... --Sjschen 21:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

The section "Choosing Tofu" and it's content seems to be mishmashed. The content seems to be about maintaining and storing tofu which has nothing to do with choosing tofu. A title like "Tofu Storage" might be deemed more appropriate. Kreagan82 10:38, 17 July 2006

[edit] Staleness

Why does the word "staleness" refering to Tofu that has become sour, link to "Foodbourne Illness"? Foods that are stale don't neccesarily cause illness. In this case, I would say it is very unlikely to cause illness. It just makes the Tofu taste sour, and makes the texture less appetizing. -PhifeAlQuest

[edit] Other types of Tofu

Fermented tofu (furu 腐乳) - A kind of tofu packed in salt water and wine and fermented. Also known as Wet Tofu or Wet Bean Curd. Taste is similar to miso, a Japanese fermented soya bean paste. The taste of fu yu is often likened to cheese. Fu yu is commonly found in 12 oz. jars either plain, spicy, or with sesame oil and can be found in the condiments section of Asian food markets.

I've added some info above and changed the name to 'Fermented tofu' as fu yu is not actually pickled. - HenryChung 00:28, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Thousand layer tofu (千叶豆腐) - By putting tofu into the frost compartment of the fridege, it will form multiple layers within itself. Sltan 20 July 2005

Tofu bamboo (腐竹) - Also called Dried Tofu, Tofu Skin or Tofu Stick. This is made by letting soymilk form a "skin" and drying that skin. Comes in long bunched-up stalks (hence the name tofu bamboo) or in flat sheets that can be stuffed. Usually found in the dried goods section of Asian food markets.

Concerning "tofu bamboo", can anybody tell whether there are any real differences between Chinese fǔzhú (sp?) 腐竹 and Japanese yuba 腐皮, or are they just different names for the same thing like "maize", "corn" and "mealies"? I figure Korean yubu 油腐 유부 is made in a similar way, but its texture does not look as smooth as 腐竹's, and it is probably never dried. Any clarification on this would be appreciated. – Wikipeditor 20:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Yuba and fuzhu are used extensively in both Chinese and Japanese cuisine. The two are different only in the way they are dried. Yuba is dried as a sheet (腐皮; tofu skin). Fuzhu is is bunched up. As for 油腐 유부, I think it's the exact thing, well...I dunno, but at least they taste very similar. I tend to side more with the "maize", "corn", and "mealies" thing you mentioned s--06:00, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Dried tofu (豆腐幹/豆腐干) - A denser, dryer tofu that has been pressed and slightly aged. Not really completely "dried", just dryer. Dried tofu can be slightly chewy and is often used diced as a substitute for meat in vegetarian Chinese dishes. Usually comes plain or marinated in spices, usually five-spice (五香) and is found in the refrigerated section of Asian food markets.

Tofu shreds (幹絲/干絲/干丝) - Long strands of dried tofu (see above). Good substitute for recipies that call for shredded meat. The taste is very subtle and is often stir fried with strips of meat in Chinese cuisine.

Why is this info going in "Talk" instead of in the article itself? I'm confused. Badagnani 00:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms/nutritional information

Great article! Informative, engaging and well written. Having said that I have to agree with Nahum above: The description suffers from neglecting nutritional information. This is especially important, as tofu is often considered health food, ie some people will feel motivated to eat it because its purported healthful effects.

For people who like detail I can recommend http://www.rahul.net/cgi-bin/fatfree/usda/usda-l0.cgi?TOFUx%20RAW,%20REGULAR. However this content is out of keeping with the non-technical nature of the article. So I'll just include a summary.

--Philopedia 22:46, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I changed the POV "rightfully regarded" because there are some who believe soy foods (including tofu) to have negative effects on the human endocrine system. I don't think this is yet addressed in the article. Badagnani 23:04, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tofu skin

I've eaten, in a Japanese restaurant, a fried tofu skin that is somewhat rectangular and stuffed. It's actually not thin like yuba, but a little puffy. It's a standard item on sushi menus but I've forgotten the name. Is this discussed in the article? Badagnani 03:31, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, here it is, from the sushi article: Inarizushi (stuffed sushi). 稲荷寿司. A small pouch or pocket filled with sushi rice and other ingredients. The pouch is fashioned from deep-fried tofu (油揚げ or abura age), a thin omelet (帛紗寿司 or fukusazushi), or dried gourd shavings (干瓢 or kanpyo). Sjschen, can you check and add this? Badagnani 03:33, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Cancel that; I see this was already in the tofu article. Badagnani 03:34, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tofu flower

I personally think "Tofu flower" is a horrid literal translation that serves to confuse. Does somebody have a better suggestion for a good replacement term? Sjschen 14:07, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. How about a pseudo-transliteration? Like "Tofu Fa" (Cantonese) or "Tofu Hua" (Mandarin)? - HenryChung 00:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't "dou" mean "bean"? So literally it would be "bean flower"? That's even worse. You could switch the adjective and noun and call it "flower tofu" or "flowery tofu," or "flowered tofu," but I'm not sure that would be accurate either. Maybe "tofu blossom"? But "tofu flower" seems the most accurate, and literal. Badagnani 00:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Dou" does mean "bean", but in the context of "dou hau", it is implicitly know as "tofu flower" (bean rot flower). I'm fine with the "tofu-" part but I don't like "-flower" since in Chines "hua" can mean also "pattern", "a mess", "flower", or "to spend", all depending on how its use. In this case it literally either means "pattern" or "a mess", neither of which sounds good (tofu mess or tofu pattern). As such I dont' know. Sjschen 03:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Isn't the use of "hua" equivalent to its use in the term "hua gu" (a type of shiitake mushroom with a "cracked" flower-like pattern on its top)? As such, it would have a link to flowers, at least in its visual appearance. Badagnani 04:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The thing is dou hua is usally quite a patterned mess which does not "pattern" like a flower. Although shititake mushrooms have a craked pattern that vaguely resemble flowers, I very sure that dou hua does not. Sjschen 04:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm starting to think maybe the phonetics idea by Henry is the better idea Sjschen 04:16, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

That will probably make things more confusing for English speakers/readers. I would just put "tofu flower" in quotes to illustrate that it's a literal translation, not the exact contextual meaning, adding something like that it's called that "due to the fanciful patterns of the surface of this tofu..." Badagnani 04:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

"Tofu flower" may not be the best translation, but it is the common English name for the product. One product can have different names in different languages.

Further down the page with "Eastern methods" there is a picture of supposed tofu flower. That is actually not tofu flower. The sweet syrup is always clear. Fresh tofu is served with a variety of preparations in China, most of which are savory (there was a great article in Saveur about this, the many carts with their many condiments for the fresh tofu). What is pictured is savory, made with a soy based sauce and can come with scallions on top. It has another name (since tofu flower is only the name for the sweet version) which I don't have off of the top of my head, but I'm going to research it. Can anyone help with this? scazza 16:19, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the syrup might have been sweetened with brown sugar. LDHan 12:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It is more accurate to translate as "doufuhua".

[edit] Protein

I changed the bit about protein because the old version takes an outdated "more is better" perspective of protein, which is not true. The passage described tofu's seemingly "modest" amount of protein as inferior, and then in explaining its high protein to fat ratio, described that as "attractive". This is outdated and wrong. See for example The McDougall Plan, 1983. Michael Bluejay 08:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Human need for protein has been suggested, for example, at 2.5% (studies in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition), and 5%, or 6% for pregnant women and 7% for lactating women (World Health Organization). Nearly all food contains more than this, e.g.: strawberries (8%), rice (8%), oranges (9%), potatoes (10%), corn (12%), zucchini (17%), pinto beans (24%), cauliflower (33%), broccoli (43%). And these aren't cherry-picked foods that have special amounts of protein, nearly *all* foods contain more than ample protein. Michael Bluejay 08:32, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be speaking here mainly as an activist, which is not good for our site. Speaking in terms of grams per day, an adult male weighing about 120 lbs. (like myself) would need about 55 grams of protein per day. Brown rice has 5 grams per cup. Broccoli also has 5 grams per cup. A potato has 4 grams per 6 oz. (medium) potato. http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm If I eat rice as my staple food, with similar vegetables, I would need to eat 10 cups of food in a single day. But it's very difficult to eat that much, at least for myself. Eating foods higher in protein (of course not implying that tofu is the only one, but you must agree it is higher than many vegetarian foods) means that one doesn't have to eat as much volume of food to gain this 55 or so grams. Badagnani 08:50, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your discussion. I am not speaking as an activist, I am just trying to make the article accurate. My point is, if nearly all food contains more than ample protein, then the amount of protein in tofu is nothing special. Your argument about needing to eat 10 cups of food a day doesn't make sense to me. Nobody eats brown rice exclusively. Provided that enough food is available, people will eat an appropriate amount of food to maintain their body weight. And when they do so it's almost impossible for them to ingest insufficient quantities of protein, since just about anything they eat will contain more protein than they need.

The passage you're championing says this:

While its 8% protein content by weight (16 grams of protein per 5 ounces for firm tofu) is rather modest, considering its origin as a bean product and the fact that most of its mass is due to water, the nearly 2:1 ratio of protein to fat is in fact quite nutritionally attractive for those not obtaining enough protein from other sources (e.g. vegans).

This is wrong because it takes a "more is better" approach, by describing the seemingly "modest" amount of protein as unattractive, and then describing its higher-than-it-seems amount of protein as "quite nutritionally attractive". This is wrong, because tofu's protein content is not special considering that nearly all foods contain more than sufficient protein. And describing vegans as especially challenged for obtaining protein is not correct. If you disagree then I would like to see sources. You say to edit, rather than revert, but I can't edit what's incorrect. The passage in question takes a very outdated view of protein and as such it should be updated in order for the article to be of the highest quality possibe. Michael Bluejay 09:08, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I just explained that if I eat brown rice, broccoli, and potatoes, bread, or whatever, in a day, I'm going to have to eat 10 cups of food. I'm sure I can't accomplish this feat. Do you understand what I am saying? Thus, one has to be intelligent and eat beans, gluten, tofu, or similar foods to reach that 55, 60 or whatever number of grams it is. I object strongly to your insinuation that what I am saying is outdated, as I don't believe it is. Let's deal with specifics, not generalizations.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/protein.htm has a table of the amount of protein in many vegetarian foods, and they are clearly not equal. Some are 3 grams per serving, some are 10, 15, 30--all different amounts. If I need to get 55 grams, they are clearly not equal, or adequate, if I have to eat 10 cups of food per day. Please address this or the article is getting reverted (which is very rude of you to do, by the way, rather than edit the article).Badagnani 09:18, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Re: "Do you understand what I'm saying?", I not only understand it, I addressed it. I'll try again: The fact that you would have to eat 10 lbs. of rice or some similar food to meet your caloric needs couldn't be any more irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make, which I'll try to make again: *Whatever* someone eats, they're almost certainly getting more than ample protein. That's true whether someone is eating ten pounds of food per day or three, since *whatever* foods they select to meet their caloric needs will with very rare exception provide more than ample protein. From your writing it's not clear to me whether you get this. As for my being reverting being rude, don't be surprised if people revert when you refuse to discuss. (And thank you for discussing now, by the way.) As for recent reverts, I've already explained that I think the older wording is inaccurate and I believe it's better to replace inaccuracy than to edit inaccuracy. Michael Bluejay 10:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

In your recent revert (made right after you called me rude for reverting), your edit summary says, "tofu is higher in protein than other vegan foods". This demonstrates to me that you're missing the point. I don't dispute that tofu is higher in protein than other vegan foods. What I dispute strongly is that that fact is of any special significance, considering that nearly all foods provide more than ample protein.

Even though I believe your "10 pounds" explanation is flawed for reasons I've mentioned, let's apply that test to tofu: To meet one's caloric needs with tofu only, one would have to eat *8 pounds* of it. That's still more food than most could comfortably eat. So including tofu doesn't appreciably reduce the amount of food an individual must consume.

That nearly all foods contain more than ample protein is not in dispute. Again, *whatever* one chooses to eat, in whatever quantities, they are almost certain to get more than ample protein, and thus tofu's higher than normal protein content is not a special advantage. The fact that tofu has more protein than other plant foods couldn't be any more irrelevant, for the reasons I've mentioned. Michael Bluejay 11:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

I didn't say 10 pounds of food, I said 10 cups, which would be needed in order to get the recommended allowance of 55 grams of protein. If I eat brown rice, broccoli, potatoes, and other similar vegetables in a day, how am I to eat 10 cups of such in order to get that 55 grams of protein? It is impossible without adding some higher protein foods to my diet, such as tofu, gluten, or beans. You have not addressed this at all in your comments. Badagnani 20:49, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

In fact, I've addressed it repeatedly. I'm sorry if you don't understand my answer. In any event, I believe the compromise in the article now is sufficient. Michael Bluejay 06:21, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burmese tofu

Kathari says 1) Burmese tofu isn't made of lentils, but is actually made of chick peas; and 2) It's originally a dish of Shan origin. If this is accurate, I guess these things should be fixed. But I still don't understand why that Burmese restaurateur told me it's made from lentils. Lentils don't resemble chick peas at all. Badagnani 00:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I just got off the phone with this Burmese restaurant in Virginia. I was told that the dish is made from chick pea flour. Although some people call it "lentil flour" it's actually made from Indian "chana dal" flour. "Chana dal" is the Hindi name for chick peas, so it looks like Burmese tofu is made from chick pea flour. She also confirmed that Burmese tofu originated with the Shan people. Badagnani 00:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible that it can be made of either? Sjschen 07:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

That might explain the confusion. But the person to whom I spoke (who spoke good English) said that it's chick pea flour (she said they use Indian "chana dal" flour), and not lentils. Perhaps we could cross check by talking to more Burmese people via Burmese bulletin boards, etc. but I'm mostly satisfied (though I still can't understand why or how anyone could confuse a lentil with a chick pea) that it's made strictly of chick peas. Badagnani 07:55, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

It's not lentils; chickpea flour is what the Burmese use. Shan tofu however is made from yellow split peas (zadaw bè in Burmese, pè byoke when boiled). It's firm but more jelly-like than the Burmese version and yellow, eaten hot before it sets as to hpu byaw(k) (lit. soft tofu) in upcountry Burma but named to hpu nway (lit. warm tofu) as a recent arrival in Rangoon. More commonly it's eaten as fritters (to hpu jor), also as hna pyan jor (lit. twice fried which it is) and as a salad (to hpu thoke). 86.7.135.224 20:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your expert information. There's almost nothing about this (at least in English) on the Internet. So there are two types of "Burmese tofu" -- the type eaten by the Burman majority made from chick peas (which is ? in color?), and a more jelly-like version (which is yellow in color?) made by the Shan which is made from yellow split peas (I suppose the same as what is called toovar or toor dal in Hindi)? I wonder if this second one is similar, by coincidence, to the Korean hwangpomuk, which is made from mung beans but colored with gardenia flower. I wouldn't call that tofu, though, but a jelly, as it is made exclusively from starch rather than proteins. Badagnani 20:48, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Burmese tofu is also yellow and I suppose they cheated in using chickpea flour and not making the effort to process it from yellow split peas, not mung beans either. Sorry, I'm no expert, just a foodie and had to ask the wife who's a wonderful cook in Shan, Chinese, Indian as well as Burmese tradition. 86.7.135.224 23:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks again for the clarification; would you agree that "Burmese tofu" and "Shan tofu" are both more similar to a jelly (like the Korean jellies hwangpomuk, dotorimuk, nokdomuk, etc.) than a tofu? As in, it's made primarily from starch, not protein, and the texture is more jelly-like (looking like Jell-o), and shiny in color? (Then again, the Japanese soft tofus look like this too, though they're white in color.) I guess I'm going to have to find some of this stuff somewhere, but there aren't any Burmese restaurants around me. Most likely this food needs an article of its own, as I'm thinking it's not really in the same category as regular tofu made from soybeans. Badagnani 05:53, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they are both yellow and jelly-like, not shiny but quite firm and easy to cut without crumbling like tofu which strangely enough is called pè bya (lit. pressed pea and translates to bean-curd in English and not tofu over there), the pickled version of which (si to hpu, here's the mixup in names! very likely a Burmese corruption of its Chinese name) is also popular in the north, Mandalay upwards. Remember chickpea and yellow pea are not starch but legumes and protein. Burmese jelly (kyauk kyaw) on the other hand is made from agar. Burmese or Shan topu may be cut into rectangles, scored lengthwise and fried known as to hpu gyaw or into triangles and fried twice as hna pyan gyaw, the preferred way in the Shan states, also dried in larger rectangular slices as to hpu gyauk and fried as to hpu gyuak kyaw rather like poppadums, a popular item of dried food sold in Burmese pagoda festivals (hpaya pwe). 86.7.135.224 13:02, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Wow, great, fascinating info. It's quite enough to go on for the tofu article (sounds quite analogous to "regular" tofu) and seems to merit its own article. BTW, the Korean jellies are starch (including the ones made from mung beans, as well as the acorn and buckwheat varieties); I think they do this by mashing them up then rinsing everything away but the starch, similar to the procedure of making fen si/saifun/dangmyeon (glass/cellophane noodles). Badagnani 13:20, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Suspect citation

Is it me or should the feces mention just added be backed up with a citation? Badagnani 02:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Definitely should be backed by citation if it appears again. Edit was by anon and was probably vandalism. MichaelBluejay 09:28, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Established history of tofu needs expansion

Links to works by Shurtleff, William and Aoyagi, Akiko provides much of the information. Somebody just needs to go summarize and then key out the information. Sjschen 00:06, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

This point needs to be brought up again. I added the word "probable" to indicate that the Chinese origin of tofu is not proven, but I think someone deleted it, or else I did something wrong when I made the edit... Dianachristine 17:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone removed "probable." The name is Chinese and I think it's pretty much universally acknowledged that all countries who have tofu got this thing from the Chinese (just like they borrowed Chinese characters). Badagnani 17:16, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vietnamese name

Why does the Vietnamese name just added differ in spelling from the spelling in the title of the Vietnamese language Wikipedia article on this subject? Badagnani 02:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I am a Vietnamese and this is the first time I learn that tofu has tào phở as name! My only explanation is that probably tào phở is how the north Vietnamese pronounce the Chinese doufu. It appears that the Vietnamese article was written by a North Vietnamese who also used a north Vietnamese name for soybean (đậu tương). Other Vietnamese names for tofu are đậu phụ and đậu khuôn. Đậu phụ sounds quite similar to doufu. Khuôn (mold) reflects the fact that the product is shaped in a mold. For dòuhuā, the Vietnamese name is đậu hủ ([soy]bean in jar), the name hủ indicates that the soft tofu is made and carried around in an earthenware jar. [mirrordor] 24 March 2007

Welcome! If you find anything that needs to be added in the article, please go ahead and fix it (if you're sure, and maybe you could consult some dictionaries). I know that a lot of Chinese characters can be pronounced and spelled in 5+ different ways in Vietnamese. Badagnani 07:40, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Common dishes, taupok

Common tofu dishes should be added into the article such as Mapo Doufu, fried tofu etc., and why is there no mention of taupok a type of dried tofu. I'm not sure what's the English name for taupok, if not could one add it into the section of this article. --Ter e nc e Ong 09:55, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Taupok is fried. It's the fukenese/taiwanese/min-nanese way of saying "豆泡" or rather "dòupào". The common recipe part is a good idea, you could try to start the "common dishes" section in the Eastern and Western uses part if you wish. Sjschen 03:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Hold on, I just checked the article and mapo doufu is already mentioned. If you'd like, go ahead and add the Minnanese (and Cantonese, while you're at it) names of whatever dishes you'd like. Badagnani 06:08, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Hey is taupok the same as mapo doufu??? I have a friend whose dad manufacture and sell taupok in South-east Asia and China. His taupok doesn't look the same as the mapo doufu which u mentioned. I believe i will get more details from my friend regarding taupok. Thanks.

p/s: i just wanted to clarify the differences between taupok and mapo doufu. no hard feelings. (Luffy487 03:35, 17 January 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Tone

Is the "fu" in "tofu" fourth tone or fifth (neutral) tone? We have it both ways in the article. Badagnani 06:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

In my Chinese dictionary it is "dòufu", so it's the neutral tone. "Fu" itself is third tone (falling rising). LDHan 12:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Burmese unicode

I don't really know Myanmar, but would it be OK to use the Unicode text "တဖိုးူ" instead of the picture ()?

That was added to solve the problem that what you typed above (and what existed before) shows up simply as six identical thick vertical black lines, at least on most computers. Badagnani 09:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, does anyone know what is up with the other Burmese name ()? I'm not able to find the "bracket"-enclosed character (nor any combining characters which would create it from "ဟ") either in my Unicode character map nor in the article on the Burmese alphabet.

You could check with the person who made this edit; I believe s/he may be User:Hintha (a Burmese-language specialist), if my memory serves me correctly. Badagnani 09:43, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nutritional section cleanup

There appears to be a whole bunch of positive and negative health effects noted in the Nutritional section. Perhaps some cleanup is in order? Sjschen 06:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

Does anyone know when did the term "Tofu" enter the English language? I remember this thing is called "bean curd" in the US back in the late 1970s. And gradually the term "Tofu" became more popular and eventually became English. When did this word first show up in an English dictionary? Kowloonese 03:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

It may have entered English earlier as this article claims 1880: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tofu This is interesting too: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=soy Badagnani 03:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This one claims 1875-1880: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tofu Maybe U.S. contact (via Perry?) with Japan could explain the these and other Japanese words entering English with such prevalence (including many terms that were originally Chinese)? Badagnani 03:52, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

From Oxford English Dictionary: Tôfu is made by pounding the soy beans after soaking in water. Trans. Asiatic Soc. Japan VIII, p399, 1880.

The larger part of the leguminous food in the Japanese diet consists of the preparations of soy beans, such as miso, shoyu and tofu. Bull. U.S. Dept. Agric. CLIX. p46, 1905.

Two hawks have raided the tofu. BLUNDEN, Mind's Eye, p109, 1934.

Tofu (bean-curd) is made by soaking soy beans in water, mashing them, straining the mass through cloth and solidifying with the addition of magnesium chloride. K. TEZUKA Japanese Food p28, 1936.

Arrange all tofu strips in the casserole and cover with half of the cheese. Sunset, April, 214/2, 1979

In the United States,..tofu has become an ‘in’ food. Guardian newspaper (UK) 14 Aug. 7/1, 1981.

So the use of "tofu" in an English language publication dates from at least 1880, but that's not the same as "the term "Tofu" entering the English language". I would suggest "tofu" only became common in English in the last few decades, before that if it was used much at all outside the context of Japanese culture or Japanese food, it would have been recognised as a Japanese word. LDHan 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The popularity of the macrobiotic diet among "health food" enthusiasts in North America over the past 40 (?) years shouldn't be underestimated either; a number of other Japanese foods (like "seitan"), and consequently their Japanese names, gradually achieved recognition in North America due to their promotion by macrobiotic practitioners. I'm not sure if tofu is included in the macrobiotic diet but I think it is. Macrobiotic people would probably have used the Japanese names for things rather than their English translations ("tofu" instead of "bean curd," "seitan" instead of wheat gluten, "tamari" or "shoyu" instead of "soy sauce", "adzuki bean" instead of "red bean," "kombu" instead of "kelp," "dashi" instead of "broth," etc. There has been no similar culinary movement from China to promote Chinese culinary terms, and the Chinese who have come to North America generally anglicize their terms (maybe in the belief that Americans would never be able to pronounce them). The terms that are left untranslated from Chinese are often left in various non-standardized romanizations of various Cantonese or other southern Chinese dialect versions). Whatever the case, the link above shows that the words "soy" and "soybean" came from Japanese into English at least a couple of hundred years ago, due apparently to early Dutch contacts with the Japanese. Badagnani 16:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I thank everyone for providing some much research result here. This place is really a great place to learn. I guess the word really becomes an English word instead of a transliteration of a Japanese term only after the item itself became the 'in' food in 1981. So I guess 1981 is the date that I was looking for. That is consistent with what I experienced back in the 1970s. Kowloonese 23:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right. A lot of us are interested in this related issue as well, because I think a lot of the issues you bring up are valid ones. Badagnani 00:32, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

This IS some great research. It explains why there are two terms; Bean curd and tofu, to describe thes same thing, the former being the Chinese literal translation and the latter being the English integrated Chinese/Japanese word. However, I don't think the English use of literal translations has just to do with becoming familiar with a foreign item or concept. I personally have always attributed it to the lessing "self-centricity" in Western culture in the 1960's and 1970's, an increasing acceptence of foreign things without needing to relate it to western concepts, as well as the globalization of the English language. Sjschen 04:51, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To give an example of what you're talking about, the djembe has been well known among North American "drum circle" folks for at least 15 years. Everyone knows this Mandinka name for the instrument and everyone calls it that, though most people don't play traditional Mandinka rhythms on it. However, there are probably hundreds of other drums from Africa whose names are unknown to North Americans.

Similarly, the names "chow mein," "lo mein," "Kung Pao," etc. are well known (and in not too-horrible pronunciations, though the tones are omitted), but for "duck sauce," "soy sauce," "spare ribs," "egg roll," "straw mushroom," etc. the English words are always used and no non-Chinese people know the actual Chinese words. So it's a question of exposure. The djembe was promoted as a unique item--a djembe--and not simply as an "African drum." Similarly, Chinese restaurateurs chose to use Chinese names for specific, "untranslatable" (?) dishes while preferring to translate other things into English. Badagnani 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Green bean tofu?

What is this green bean tofu Rmalloy just added to the article? Is it green bean jelly, like nokdumuk? Badagnani 03:59, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems to have been removed, but there's a type of soft green tofu available in japan that I think is called "Edamame Tofu", which is apparently made from fresh soybeans. I think it tastes wonderful, and I would be interested to learn more about it. Could this be the same thing?Ccrrccrr 01:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, we definitely need info about this. We have in the article that tofu is "usually" made from dried soybeans and less frequently made from fresh soybeans. I was beginning to doubt that fresh soybeans were ever used, due to the fact that we'd never found any evidence of that, but it's good to know! Would you like to add the info? Badagnani 03:46, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Is this what you're talking about? 枝豆豆腐 (or 枝豆の豆腐, 枝豆と豆腐, or 豆腐と枝豆?

http://kuzumi.jugem.jp/?month=200607

http://www.miyo-cook.com/recipe_2005.08.htm

http://www.osaka-cpa.or.jp/osaka-jin/naiyou/osakajin/jin9909.html

http://www.tamarizuke.co.jp/seikan/dia/200508.htm

http://static.flickr.com/62/223622263_0f86f51872.jpg

http://www.kobe-dai.com/ryouri/enlargement/img/29.jpg

http://health.suntory.co.jp/goma_recepi/sm_2.html

http://www.oisix.com/ShouhinShousai.00013529.o.htm

http://www.wakodo.co.jp/company/release/20061004_100menu.html

Badagnani 03:56, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've added some text about it. Check it for accuracy and pick a representative photo or two and I'll add superscript photo links after the text. Badagnani 04:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cantonese Slang?

I have been trying to track down any sources that can refernce the slang use of "mash tofu" in Cantonese for lesbian sex. The first mention of "mash tofu" in the tofu article was on 15:46, 23 December 2005 by the user Hanchi without any references cited. Searching google only turns up websites that reference back to Wikipedia or utilize an identical quote from Wikipedia. I would like to request that this usage be cited correctly or be removed since it does not explain it's usage in reference to the topic of tofu. Any comments on this matter would be appreciated. 71.176.130.199 22:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

We have a lot of Cantonese-speaking users; why don't we ask them? The first question is, though, did you search using Chinese characters or the English term? I don't think the time-honored usage "eat tofu" is disputed but I have never heard the "mash tofu" reference before and it is possible it was just made up, or a very limited or very recent usage. Badagnani 22:33, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

--Resident Evil== A piece of tofu was a playable secret character in Resident Evil 2....

[edit] enquiry regarding "sago" in sentence construction

A construction in the text reads as follows: In Philippines, the sweet delicacy taho is made of fresh tofu with brown sugar syrup at 'sago'.

What is "sago"? Perhaps there is something missing from here because I cannot discern the meaning. Perhaps could this sago be sago?--Mumun 無文 11:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

After looking at taho I changed 'at' to 'and' in the sentence above and added the sago link.--Mumun 無文 00:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Protein content

In the nutrition and health section's protein subsection, the paragraph about the AHA's "counter claim" to the heart health claims allowed by the FDA previously don't read like counterclaims at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.175.188.98 (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Yaki-dofu

Should yaki-dofu (grilled tofu) be added to the article? It is supposed to be one of the three main Japanese varieties, after kinugoshi-dofu (silken tofu) and momen-dofu (cotton tofu). Badagnani 04:01, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request to move to Doufu

Doufu is of chinese origin.--Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 21:53, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose move. That's a good point, and one that is covered well in the article. The thing is, our naming conventions, stated at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), say that we should use the most common English-language name in our article titles. "Tofu" is an English word (a loanword from Japanese) and "doufu" is not, as can be seen at the following links:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/doufu

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tofu

Like it or not, a lot of items of Chinese origin (such as ume or bonsai) have been adopted into English from Japanese rather than Chinese, for various historical reasons. Badagnani 22:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose as per Badagnani. No one can deny the deep historical, cultural links between China and doufu, but in English-speaking countries it is clearly known as tofu. Mumun 無文 00:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

comment,I felt so strange to see tofu rather than doufu as the name of beancurd.Anyway,if all of you insist,I will not persist.-Ksyrie(Talkie talkie) 10:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Paper and silk are from China as well. Kanji is the romaji from the Chinese "Hànzì". I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of English speakers, at least those outside China, even those who despise it, know what "tofu" is, but, except for those who have studied Chinese, have never heard of "doufu". Tom e r ^talk 03:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment - I wouldn't call Chinese characters "kanji," though. For whatever reason, "kanji" is known by many English speakers as the name of the characters of Chinese origin as used in the Japanese written language, but "hanzi" isn't as well known in the English-speaking world except among Sinophiles. It's a good point you make, though. Badagnani 03:04, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - You see doufu used once in a while but ask most westerners and many east asian to write it out in Roman characters and they'll give it to you as tofu. Sjschen (talk) 04:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I would support "bean curd" as a purely neutral, English article name, but not doufu. I don't dispute its origin in China, but that spelling is virtually unseen in the west -- even Chinese-made exports use the spelling "tofu". Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:15, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

What just happened to the infobox? Some editor just swept in and changed it, and now several of the romanizations are hidden. Please change it back. Badagnani 02:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

As I explained below, and in my edit summary, which you apparently didn't read, single-article templates are deprecated. Tom e r ^talk 03:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This edit is even worse--it got rid of all of the Asian names and romanizations that we worked so hard on. There was no consensus for that. It would be great if the editor who did this could explain why the Asian names are worthy of blanking without comment. Badagnani 03:10, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

And again, as I explained in my edit summary, and below (so whence the charge of "without comment"?), foreign food names are not encyclopædically useful in an English encyclopædia article. Tom e r ^talk 03:17, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Template:Tofu

I have substed this template into the article. It is found in only this article, a practice which is deprecated. What the word is in other languages has also been removed, as it adds nothing whatsoëver of encyclopædic value to English wikipedia. The offending template {{Tofu Infobox}} has been blanked, since it is clearly no longer necessary, and should be deleted within a week. Meanwhile, I have replaced the template with a food infobox. For those looking to expand the infobox, please here, at what I took out of the foodbox in a separate edit, or look at other articles that have foodboxes, such as for Big Mac (where I got the foodbox for this article from) and concentrate on information about tofu, in English, rather than on what the word is in other languages. If people want to know about tofu in Burmese, they can visit the interwiki link on the lefthand side of the article. That is, after all, what the interwiki links are there for. Tom e r ^talk 03:13, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be great if you would have contributed here before blanking the template. The names in various languages are integral to an understanding of this widespread food of Asian origin. I think the editors who regularly work on Asian cuisine articles are in agreement about that. We are English Wikipedia but this does not preclude an explanation, in specific articles where this is of great importance, of the names in relevant languages? Why not join in a discussion of this before blanking? Thanks for your input. Badagnani 03:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Please explain how the Burmese word for "tofu" is "integral to an understanding ... of [tofu]". Tom e r ^talk 03:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Interwikis are a fine reference to find non-English names, in an article like Door, which is not culturally specific. The foreign language names are essential to a complete, contextual understanding of this food, and the box provides a quick, encyclopedic way for our users to determine these various names in the cuisines in which this food is indigenous/integral. Badagnani 03:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a well-worded but completely vacuous argument. Tom e r ^talk 03:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The box providing the names of this food in the East and Southeast Asian nations in which this food is integral (including Burma) is encyclopedic in itself, providing a ready reference for all of our users (including our users in Asia, as well as those in other nations). Badagnani 03:22, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

By what standard of encyclopædicity, precisely? Tom e r ^talk 03:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you mistakenly assume I've got something against the template or against Asian languages and writing systems. As I said, first off, the use of such templates is deprecated. This has been discussed at great length elsewhere. As I said, second off, listing translations of a word in other languages within an English language encyclopædia adds nothing worthwhile to the article. This has also been discussed at great length elsewhere. Instead of admonishing me for "sweeping in", as you seem to think I did, and brutally assaulting "your" article without participating in discussion, perhaps you should consider reöpening the lengthy discussion that led to my doing what I did. Tom e r ^talk 03:23, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

This should clearly have been explained here, first, and should be done in the future in that manner. It's always good practice, when beginning to edit an article in a particular subject area, to get a feel for how editors in that particularly "community" do things, and why. In some cases such practices have been built up, by consensus, over a period of several years, and work quite well. Now that you've explained that single-page templates are not preferred (though you did not explain why), now we know something more about the area you have a specialization in. So it works both ways. That can only be a good thing. Badagnani 03:26, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I should add that the number of languages in the Tofu box is unusually large, and most templates used on Asian cuisine articles only have one, two, or three languages. Hence the need for the custom-designed box in Tofu. So it's a special case. Badagnani 03:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I was in the process of explaining it and kept getting edit-conflicted by someone yelling at me :-p Tom e r ^talk 03:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

As to translations or transliterations or inserting what a word is in other languages, is fine w/in English articles, as long as they are used in a relevant context. If there's a section about tofu in Burma, fine, you can say something like "In Burma, tofu (called

péprā: in Burmese)..." The rambling list, however, regardless of how pretty people think it is or how many people have worked on it, does not add anything of encyclopædic value. It is nothing more than "translationcruft". Otherwise, Japanese (with mention of < Chinese) only belong encyclopædically in this article. Please remove them and put back the foodbox I had in there, which is actually encyclopædic. Thank you. Tom e r ^talk 03:37, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

You know, there is probably room for the template in an article like Tofu in Asian cuisine or something, in which it might even warrant expansion. It categorically, however, does not belong in this article. Tom e r ^talk 03:41, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The box providing the names provides an encyclopedic, ready reference to our users around the world regarding the names of this food in the East and Southeast Asian cuisines in which it is integral. Having them in one place (the box, right up top right) is equivalent to any other box we use in any other article, not necessitating that users hunt through the article to find those names. The list does not "ramble" because it is not in prose. It is simply an encyclopedic reference for our users, including those who are actively writing and researching about Asian cuisine topics. I am one of those, so if you want to call this reference "crfut" or whatever term you've made up, implying that it is of no use, I find that highly insulting and more revealing of your own character, attempting to prevent this integral information from appearing for our users (including myself). Badagnani 03:42, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

No, the box provides the word for tofu in a number of languages. That is the function of interlanguage lexicons, not of encyclopædias. The fact that tofu plays a significant rôle in the cuisine of various countries is interesting, and should be covered in Tofu in Asian cuisine. That is encyclopædic. If you honestly believe people are coming to the English Wikipedia article on tofu in order to find out how to say tofu in Vietnamese, I can't help that, but you are incorrect.

Now for the rest of your response. (1) The word "ramble" has more meanings than you are apparently aware. (2) It is not a reference, it is a list of foreign language translations and transliterations in a template. That is not a reference, it is a list, and such lists have been banished where they are inappropriate, as this one quite clearly is in this article. Those users who are capable of writing and researching Asian cuisine topics and who are sufficiently sophisticated to care about what the food is called in various Asian languages, can refer to the interwiki links. Again, that is what they are there for. (3) "cruft" is not something I've made up, but you're right. In this article, the list is of no use. (4) If you find it insulting, you're taking your disagreement with wikipedia policy personally, which is unjustifiable. (5) I'm not sure what you think I've done is "revealing of [my] own character", other than that I came across a list of translations in a single-article template, and in accordance with WP policy, deleted them. (6) The information, again, is not "integral", it is marginal at best.

In other news, it appears that your attachment to this may be due to your having linked to this very article in an ongoing dispute here. As I said, the list may be appropriate in Tofu in Asian cuisine. It is still not appropriate here. When you've written that article, even in stub form, you can resurrect your list there. Tom e r ^talk 03:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Your statement should be changed to "this information is not useful to me. I don't make it a practice, as you seem to do, to sweep into a subject in which I haven't previously contributed, and about which I don't know much, and prescribe/proscribe what should or shouldn't be deleted from that article. Consensus needs to first be developed, as community is important here at WP. The tenor of your last comment is unnecessarily and disruptively unilateral in its presumption and presumptuousness. Badagnani 04:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I don't need you putting words in my mouth. To your remarks about consensus, they're true, but inapplicable in this case. Consensus is that lists of translations are not encyclopædic, and that single-article templates are not to be used. As for the tenor of my remarks, after your remarks about my character, even if you were correct, instead of just full of rhetoric, my only response would have to be, "Hello pot, meet kettle"... Tom e r ^talk 04:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Our practice does appear to be that lists of translations are not provided in articles. Perhaps a discussion before the move would have been better, but I am having trouble seeing what justifies us breaking that norm to create a huge list in this article. It doesn't seem encyclopedic to me, although I am admittedly commenting outside my area of expertise. (ESkog)^(Talk) 04:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. It's very simple. We use boxes for articles featuring Chinese (and other East Asian) subjects, when there are several languages/dialects in play. This is particularly the case for Cantonese cuisine articles which have names in Mandarin and Cantonese (and sometimes also Min Nan and/or Shanghainese). Occasionally the food will also be found in Korean and/or Japanese and/or some Southeast Asian cuisines, and in such a case these are placed in the box for quick reference. In the case of tofu, this food is so widespread, and though of Chinese origin we don't want to imply that it is only Chinese, thus the other Asian cuisines which surround China where this food is prevalent are added as well, for a global perspective and for quick reference. It's no different than any other box giving key information right up top. An article on tofu in Asian cuisine would be similar to an article on the hamburger in North American cuisine, in that the various Asian uses of tofu are well covered in this article, making up a sizable proportion of the article. Badagnani 04:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The "foreign names" should be kept. A distinction should be drawn between "translations of an English term" (non-encyclopaedic) and "foreign names of a foreign subject" (encyclopaedic).

To illustrate, a list of names in different languages for the "automobile" is uncyclopaedic, even though the automobile was invented outside the Anglosphere and imported from another language, because "automobile" is the natural and common term encountered by English-speaking users.

By contrast, the Hebrew name of Yitzhak Rabin is encyclopaedic, because he is a foreign subject matter, and the transliteration "Yitzhak Rabin" is not his actual name - but a transliteration of it. If we carry the "no transliterations" argument to its logical limit, Yitzhak Rabin should not have a title at all!

"Tofu" falls in the second category. While the word "tofu" is commonly used in English, it is a transliteration of the Japanese term. In respect of the English language, tofu is a foreign subject, predominantly produced by, found in, and consumed by non-English-speaking countries and expatriate or migrant communities in English-speaking countries. As such, the "foreign name" is not only relevant but essential in conveying a full understanding of the subject matter.

I am guessing that tofu attracted the wrath of the original deleter because it had such a long list of names. While I also have qualms about listing so many terms, some of which are obscure or clearly derivative from the Chinese, the list should not be deleted. This is because the subject matter (tofu) is encountered by the average English-speaking user in many different contexts, which can often mean a variation in naming. Thus, for example, tofu produced in LA is likely to be labelled "tofu", but tofu imported from China might be labelled "doufu", and in Korean cuisine it could well be identified as "tubu".

Also, because tofu is found in many different cultures and its English name is a transliteration, there is no "true" or "correct" English name - there will only be a "most common" one. Omitting all other transliterations would be like omitting "chips" from "'French fries". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 06:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The infobox is nothing but an expanded, illustrative version of what is common practise: the provision of equivalent names as spelt out in the Manual of Style. If anyone wishes to contest the encyclopedic value of equivalent names, kindly bring this up for wikipedia-wide discussions and seek concensus there, instead of attacking a single article like in this instance.--Huaiwei 11:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Are people done demonizing me yet, so that intelligent discussion can procede? Tom e r ^talk 07:24, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see the concern as raised above. The fact remains that an opinion is being made on a single article when it obviously has site-wide implications. My suggestion still remains very much valid indeed, irrespective of who it may be directed at.--Huaiwei 14:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Korean transliteration hidden

The Korean transliteration in the box should not be "hidden." It is primary information and should not be hidden. Please fix this, thanks. Badagnani 23:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Japan or Korea first?

With regard to this edit, I believe there may be two justifications for placing Korea before Japan: first, soft, traditional tofus made with seawater may be more typical of Korea than Japan; and second, many East Asian cultural elements that originated in China, spread first to the Korean peninsula, then from Korea to Japan. I am not saying that I know for certain that either of the above are true, these are simply two explanations why Korea might be placed before Japan in this instance. Badagnani 06:08, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

For the record, I reverted the initial edit because I don't think alphabetical order is a strong principle when you only have two items - hardly even a list. Often, its usage comes down to habit - for example, I often say "Spain and Portugal".

I also had in mind the possibility (not certain on my part either) that Tofu spread from China to Korea before Japan. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I added a few links. It does appear that seawater is used for very special types of tofu in both Korea and Japan, and I can't determine which is more typical in its nation. Badagnani 16:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TfD nomination of Template:Tofu Infobox

Template:Tofu Infobox has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — Balloonguy 23:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Okara

Okara is the well-known, standard name for the food described in the article. It's not anyone's fault that English has adopted the Japanese name, as with tofu or bonsai, even if it was probably originally developed in China. Google search result Badagnani 03:11, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

(cross posted from your talk page)

Hey, I'm pretty sure tofu flakes are used in Chinese food too. This BBS post contains several recipes. And there's this thing called 小豆腐 which is made from 豆腐渣. I'll see if I can find any sources for it. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

This blog post says 小豆腐 is a north-eastern dish. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

This article says it is eaten in Shandong. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

As to standard English name -- I've never seen it referred to as "Okara". My opinion is that it's another instance of the North American tendency to adopt Japanese names for anything Asian. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:27, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't get this obsession with using names on packages. Obviously ethnic foods will be labelled by the language used by the producer or the cultural background of the cookbook author. Just because you see more Japanese food packets where you are doe snot mean that this label becomes the "English" word. A fortiori, with something multi-ethnic like tofu products, the "most common" name seen will depend on the geographical location, and in particular the relative sizes of ethnic populations in those areas.

Like plum wine - you probably know it by its Japanese name, because you see more Japanese restaurants. I see more Korean restaurants where I live, and I know it by its Korean name. Please do try to be sensitive to other perspectives.

"Tofu" is different because it has become a common English word. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It's widely known as "okara" in English in commercial products as well as simply being the widely understood name for this food in cookbooks, menus, etc. "Tofu flake" is incorrect and is not a name that is used in English. Badagnani 03:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Okara is widely known in the natural foods/macrobiotic/health food community, much as tofu was known mainly among this community when it first started becoming known. Tofu was generally called "bean curd" on Chinese menus but the name "tofu" came to predominate probably due to the increasing prevalence of the macrobiotic diet in English-speaking areas. Badagnani 03:39, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I still don't see much evidence that this food is not a prominent part of Chinese cuisine, aside from the couple of mentions you found. Badagnani 03:41, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding plum wine, in the United States neither the Japanese (umeshu), Chinese (meijiu), nor Korean names (maesilju) are widely known or used by anyone outside those ethnic communities, so that's not a very good example. It's simply called "plum wine" on menus. Badagnani 03:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it can be "widely known" in English by that name when the product itself isn't even widely known. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I think there are enough instances to show that it is not "rarely found". It probably isn't as prominent as in Korean and Japanese - I think it is often tossed away. But it is certainly more than "rare". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

It's comparatively well known because the natural foods community is very large (as our population is so large), and growing. It's analogous to the way tofu was at first known primarily by the natural foods community. I wouldn't hesitate to state that okara is also known among this community in Canada, the UK, Australia/New Zealand, and South Africa. Badagnani 03:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you can find in Chinese about its use in China (including which regions throw it away and which treat it as a valuable part of their cuisine), will be greatly helpful! Badagnani 03:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Reassessment

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I question the quality of this article based on the Good article criteria. For that reason, I have listed the article at Good article reassessment. Issues needing to be address are listed there. Regards, OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 19:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this is getting close to a "keep as GA" now. The main obstacle, IMO, is the "Miscellaneous" section. If this is reworked as a "Tofu and culture" section, with well written prose, I don't see any further issues. Geometry guy 23:24, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The article was ultimately delisted after remaining at GAR for almost 2 months. Though much work has been done on the article, and it is much improved, there are still several outstanding issues. There are several unreferenced sections in the article, for example, the Western Methods and Sales and Distribution sections, which contain a lot of information which begs referencing, but which lacks any inline citations to find exactly where this information comes from. These are NOT THE ONLY TWO SECTIONS THAT NEED THIS. Other outstanding issues also exist, and can be found at the archived discussion at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Archive 34. Please keep improving this article until it clearly meets all of the standards of the good articles criteria. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Can someone fix the broken link (16), or provide another source for the composition of Tofu skin? Geometry guy 14:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] viral diseases

I have removed a paragraph that claims that meat-poor diets containing tofu predispose one to viral infections. I had a look on medline and google scholar and saw no evidence, but if someone has a solid citation, please go ahead. --Slashme (talk) 10:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yudofu

It appears that yudofu (湯豆腐) needs to be added. Badagnani (talk) 00:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Effects of Soy Isoflavones should be highlighted further

There were further study done on this issue http://users.erols.com/igoddard/soy.htm More relevant abstracts can be found at http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/07abstract.htm#Choi%20&%20Lee%202004 that support the claims made in Dr White's paper. This is a serious matter that should be brought to the attention of those who consume Tofu regularly. I hope that someone will update the main article, and highlight the dangers that have been found appropriately, in an unbiased manner. I enjoyed soy products for many years, and hated giving them up, but the evidence against using soy now seems clear to me.

erw75.83.3.48 (talk) 09:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What doubts?

It says under protein that ' a decade-long study of soy protein benefits cast doubt' on the Healthy heart claim, but then the excerpted quote only seems to support the claim. Huh? Why does it say it cast doubt? Full section as of this date - In January 2006 an American Heart Association review (in the journal Circulation) of a decade-long study of soy protein benefits cast doubt on the FDA allowed "Heart Healthy" claim for soy protein.[26] Among the conclusions the authors state, "In contrast, soy products such as tofu, soy butter, soy nuts, or some soy burgers should be beneficial to cardiovascular and overall health because of their high content of polyunsaturated fats, fiber, vitamins, and minerals and low content of saturated fat. Using these and other soy foods to replace foods high in animal protein that contain saturated fat and cholesterol may confer benefits to cardiovascular health."[27] - 222.154.238.36 (talk) 01:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)