User talk:Tobias-UK
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A lot of tags put around. You are welcome to revise them yourself to improve the layout, etc. Londo06 14:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] St Helens RFC
If you insist on making edits to this page please can you make constructive edits and stop removing material with cited sources, ignoring those sources and the information inside them. Your claims for verifiability have been answered from the words of Daniel Anderson the St Helens coach, speaking on the Saints website. The removal of valid cited sources can be considered vandalism and if you continue I will be forced to report you to both an admin and to the rugby league community here on wikipedia.Londo06 20:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
- You clearly do not understand the WiKi rules regarding verifiable content. Irrespective of what you say in the your message above, the Saints official website confirm this player to be in the RESERVE TEAM - just look at the website. I am removing the players inclusion yet again. PROVIDE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE which in this case must be from the club. None of the so-called 'citations' make any mention of the number 28 shirt - only that the player "has trained" with the first team - but not all the time.
- Are you related to Dean? Is this why you insist in putting incorrect, false and misleading information in to the article? You even asked the question on Redvee - and they also told you that Dean has not yet been given a number. Not once have you given any verifiable information that confirms this player has been given the number 28 shirt. All that you have provided is second-hand comment indicating that the player has trained with the first team. It is YOU who is vandalising the content, it is YOU who are insisting that non-verifiable content is re-instated. I will continue to remove the names of all players who are not officially issued with numbers by the Club and where no credible verification is offered. If you are not happy, you know the dispute process here. The onus is on the editor to VERIFY the content he is including if it is not verifiable then the rules state it is to be removed. I have posted the relevant part of the rules in the Discussion page of the article. Please just show me ONE reliable source - just ONE - that confirms Dean has been given the number 28 shirt and I will be one very happy chap. If you cannot verify that then 'Dean 28' must NOT be reinstated in the 'current squad' list. Tobias-UK (talk) 23:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
-
- I have warned you and you have been reported for wanton vandalism against the St Helens RFC page.Londo06 00:45, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
This is the only warning you will receive. Your recent vandalism will not be tolerated. Although vandalizing articles on occasions that are days or weeks apart from each other sometimes prevents editors from being blocked, your continued vandalism constitutes a long term pattern of abuse. The next time you vandalize a page, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.
-
-
- Looking through the edits a citation needed was placed on the number 28, removing that qualifies as vandalism and moreover and point to move forward from. The fact that he may or may not lay claim to the number 28 jersey does not necessarily mean a great deal. The fact that he trains with the first team squad and remains eligible for selection is. The fact that he is listed in the reserves is that he is unlikely to displace Francis Meli or Ade Gardner in a straight fight sees that as common sense. I am happy to move on from there as a point of discussion.Londo06 00:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
-
How on earth can you say the issue of whether Dean McGilvray can lay claim to the number 28 does not mean a great deal – absolute nonsense IT MEANS EVERYTHING - it is YOU who are INSISTING that he has been GIVEN the number 28 and keep on wrongly listing that his name in the FIRST TEAM squad list alongside the number 28 - HE HAS NOT been issued with a number! I cannot find (and nor have you provided) any evidence of that from any source and if he has not OFFICIALLY been given that number then it should not be included in the Article. Stupid, unverifiable editing such as yours is irresponsible and damages the efficacy of Wikipedia. Foolish, unwarranted 'threats' of the nature you post above are silly and futile and do nothing to take matters further. The rules of Wikipedia are clear and unequivocal on this matter and I will repeat them here for you now so that you can digest them.
"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed....
... Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source....
... The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source ..."
And with that I ask you yet again and for the umpteenth time - where is the verifiable evidence that Dean McGilvray has been issued with the number 28 shirt. The burden of proof is on YOU - now either put up or shut up. I have done absolutely nothing wrong in editing the information and I will do so again in 48 hours if you cannot or do not provide the verifiable evidence as required by the Wikipedia rules. It is editing such as yours that causes Wikipedia to lack the veracity it deserves - either the content is verified or it is removed. It really is that simple.
If you continue in this silly crusade to damage the quality and veracity of the information provided in Wikipedia then it will be you who will find himself without editing privileges. I will not let this matter rest until it is properly resolved. You do not have the right to place squad numbers on Saints (or any other) players or promote players to the first team on behalf of the Club. You clearly do not understand the legal processes and rules associated with off-field rugby league matters such as this.
The fact of the matter is there is no verifiable evidence available for one simple reason and that reason is the number 28 shirt has not yet been given to any player. If you look at the Saints website you will see the player is a member of the Reserve Team – that is unequivocal evidence, if you look at the first team listing on the official site his name does not appear on the first team list against any number. If you look in the match day programme, you will find that his name does not appear on the first team list. All that is unequivocal evidence that the information you continue to put in the article is WRONG. Now, who is guilty of vandalism? Who is guilty of posting unverifiable information? Who is guilty of breaching Wikipedia editing rules????
By all means raise this as a dispute – because that is what it is, but it is you who is damaging the veracity of the article, it is you who is taking away the efficacy of the information provided. Silly schoolboy threats have no place in Wikipedia, if you are going to edit articles and make threats then please make sure you understand and follow the rules of doing so.
You have 48 hours to provide the verifiable information with respect to (1) Dean has been officially issued with the number 28 shirt and (2) that Dean is a full member of the first team squad – and not just merely training with it from time to time.
If you are unable or unwilling to respond to my challenge of your edit I will remove the non-verifiable information and report you to the appropriate place. So, over to you – PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Tobias-UK (talk) 11:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I am pleased to hear it Londo06, and I will be delighted to work with you and offer any help or assistance you may seek on this. All I ask is that the information is accurate, with no assumptions being made as to who "might" be included in the official first team squad in the future. Let's stick to verifiable facts. WiKi can be a wonderful tool, but to have efficacy it must be true to itself with the rules (policy) being followed to the letter. It's probably the lawyer in me, I am a stickler for rules, and the rules of Wikipedia are there for good reason.
In this particular article there have been some very peculiar interpretations given to the verifiable information policy. Here's hoping the issues on the St Helens RFC article are soon to be properly resolved with the information to be included in the revised article being accurate and consistent. I know you mean well, but let's stay entirely within Wikipedia editing and verification policy. To close (it's almost bed time) there are very good reasons why Super League clubs have the structure they do for their Academy, Reserve and First Team squads.
Players are appointed to their particular squad at the start of each season, some First teamers will train with the Academy and Reserve Team squads from time to time - but they remain First Team squad members. Some Academy and Reserve Team squad members will train with the First Team squad, but they remain members of the Academy or Reserve squad until such time that the Club select them for the actual First Team. It is only at the time of first selection will they be given an official squad number (although technically they will remain an Academy/Reserve team player until officially (and permanently) promoted. By all means mention in the body of the article which players have been selected from the Academy and Reserve Teams to train alongside the First Team squad but when compiling a list of squad numbers for the season please stick to those who have been officially announced by the Club and only include those players in the First Team squad list. As each new squad number is issued and announced by the club, that is the time to include the name (and number) of the new player in the Squad List in the Wikipedia article. I look forward to seeing the fruits of your work Tobias-UK (talk) 22:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Have made a note on the page which is a quote from Daniel Anderson on the official saints page. I am willing to put a break in below Chris Dean to show the distinction.Londo06 14:21, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I cannot agree to that. The information is not accurate and misleading. I am happy that the number 28 has been removed. However, in the link for the citation it does not say Dean - or any of the other players for that matter - are in the first team, it says “Players like Dean McGilvray, who played his part last season, and the likes of Andrew Dixon and Sean McGennis will continue to train alongside the first team". Notice the word "alongside". They are NOT part of the first team, please look at that link. The top of the link says "First Team Squad" and all the official first team are listed with their respective squad numbers. There is text at the bottom saying "A club spokesman said: “Gary and Gareth have earned their places in the first team squad after performing well in the Academy set up." Again their names are included in the squad list - Dean's name is is not. Moreover if you check the link on the Dean McGilray WiKi article - it directs you the OFFICIAL club website and clearly shows his name in the "Reserve Team". This is irrefutable evidence that Dean is in the Reserve Squad. Again, his name must be removed from the First Team Squad list until he is issued with a number and announced as a player in the first team and not just one who training "alongside".
- I believe you would be reading too much into the language used there, by that reasoning anyone outside the 17 trains besides the first team. I am willing to move towards a consensus, but per Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby league he is correctly listed, either for Australian or English clubs and would only be removed were he to sent out to a feeder club for the season, ie Queensland Cup or to National League clubs. The offer of a break between Chris Dean and McGilvray to denote that he studies and trains with the first team is still on the table.Londo06 17:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Dean McGilvray
Bizarre, I linked two sources that indicated him to be a real person, employed by the club, available for selection. That satisfies all the wikipedia criteria within his article and the linked articles. I'm a little confused are you pressing for the deletion of all National League players and NRL players as well. I think the Saints page edit I made was perfectly acceptable. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 22:58, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
