Talk:TNA World Heavyweight Championship/Archive 1

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Contents

First Champion

First TNA champion should be Kurt Angle, Christian only represented the NWA World Heavyweight title, just because he was stripped of the NWA title before the match started doesn't mean he was the first champ. Also TNA had control of the titles officially until midnight and they were in charge of the booking, so Christian = NWA Champ, loses it, title vacation goes into effect. Kurt's win of NWA title makes him first TNA champ. TonyFreakinAlmeida 01:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Tell that to TNA -- bulletproof 3:16 01:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Tony, what is your source for TNA having the belts until midnight? That is not true, TNA lost the belts before the PPV even started. We will find out soon, but it seems rather obvious that Cage is the first TNA champion. TJ Spyke 01:37, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
My source obviously wouldn't be taken seriously since the information came from dirtsheets, but I know for a fact that TNA recognized Cage as the NWA world heavyweight champion up until he lost the title. Kurt will be noted as first TNA heavyweight champ. The sheets were saying that TNA had until today the 14th to give up the belts. Also, Rico Mann, partner of belt designer Reggie Parks was in attendance last night to take the belts back for the NWA. TonyFreakinAlmeida 01:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Uh-huh, is that why TNA doesn't even have Cage listed as the last NWA Champion anymore? Under their history of the NWA Title, the last champion they have listed is Abyss [1]. "Dirtsheets", you mean you read what Meltzer said. You may have misread, TNA had until the 14th to give up the PHYSICAL belts (i.e. what the wrestlers wear on their waists), TNA was stripped of the actual titles earlier in the day. The Great Khali has the physical WWE Title belt, does that make him WWE Champion? TNA may have had the physical belts until after the show, but they no longer had the actual titles. TJ Spyke 01:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
TNA hasn't edited their title history pages for the NWA world or X division titles in a long time if you haven't noticed. His second reign as NWA champ was never added, nor was Sabin's 4th reign as X champ. Your argument is moot, and TNA can choose to recognize it anyway they want, because still, Christian was stripped and lost the NWA title on the same day, it isn't going to make a dent in their title histories. TonyFreakinAlmeida 01:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's just say it, neither of us know who will be considered the first champion by TNA. I still think it will be Cage, but we will find out eventually what TNA says. TJ Spyke 01:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Here's a rundown of the sequence of events as we know them and can verify:

1. Cage is stripped of the title by the NWA. TNA no longer has authority over the title.
2. Cage is still recognized as the "World Heavyweight Champion" by TNA and defends this title (represented last night by the NWA belt) against Sting and Angle.
3. Angle wins Cage's World Heavyweight Championship. He is later acknowledged by TNA as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion.

Note that none of this is original research or opinion; this is what happened. Since TNA has said nothing to the contrary, it stands to reason that the title Angle won last night as the same title Cage was defending--which couldn't have been the NWA title and was therefore new. Ergo, Cage was the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion. Of course, if TNA ever officially declares something different, I'll be willing to concede to the new viewpoint. Jeff Silvers 01:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I just feel that it's upto TNA's view, and if they want to recognize Cage for having held the TNA title for several hours or for the duration of the match last night, good for them. But they persistently used both terms NWA world and World Heavyweight title and champion up until the match, even announced Christian as the NWA World Heavyweight Champion. Most of the fans at the time probably didn't even know about Trobich stripping the titles. TonyFreakinAlmeida 02:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I feel that TNA might start the title history with the TNA Championship with Ken Shamrock if Jeff Jarret has anything to say about it. They will probably just rename the title history section that they already have. Vermon CaTaffy 8 02:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

God, I hope they don't do that. It'll be the NWA/WCW mess all over again. Jeff Silvers 02:34, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
WCW was even worse. Having 2 seperate titles exist at the same time, WCW considering them 1 title and NWA considering them 2 titles. TNA choosing to have Shamrock as the first champ would be a horrible thing, let's hope that doesn't happen. TJ Spyke 02:36, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

History has a nasty habbit of repeating itself. And just imagine if they do as you say and have Christian as their first Champion then Jeff Jarret has to win the title all over again! But that will not happen. There will not be two world titles. TNA will just re-name their title history section the TNA Heavyweight and TNA Tag Team Championship. On a side note I heard that they will also unveil a new X Division Championship. Vermon CaTaffy 8

Assuming they do consider all TNA-era NWA Champions to be TNA Champions, Wikipedia's position would still be that the new title begins post-May 13, right? I mean, on the one hand, we don't pretend the WCW and NWA titles are one and the same, but on the other hand, we do give into WWE's fantasy that the WCW Light Heavyweight Championship is the same as the Cruiserweight Title. Jeff Silvers 02:51, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I give into the WWE's WCW Light Heavyweight stance, even though the titles had different names and histories, one came right after the other, they own the lineages and it was their choice to unify them. 68.39.120.159 02:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I'm just a bit annoyed at how frequently WWE has changed their mind about the Cruiserweight Title. At first they claimed it was just the WWF Light Heavyweight Championship, but renamed; then it was a continuation of the WCW Cruiserweight Championship (which seems legitimate); then they decide that it's also a continuation of the WCW Light Heavyweight Championship--a position which was never mentioned by WCW and doesn't really make sense.
But I digress. This situation is slightly different since TNA doesn't actually control the lineage of the NWA Championship (they controlled the title at the time, but that's different). Jeff Silvers 03:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
IMO, this is similar to what WWE did with the World Heavyweight Championship. They said it had the same history as the WCW World Title, but not the same lineage. TJ Spyke 08:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I was of the impression that TNA was going to crown the first "official" TNA champion at Slammiversary in the King of the Mountain match, but who knows. Regardless we should hold back on any big debate at least until Impact. MarcK 09:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
From reading the spoilers of Impact for the next two weeks, it sounds like the title is being held up, Kurt Angle even has to wrestle a KOTM qualifying match to get in.TonyFreakinAlmeida 13:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The NWA does not recognize Kurt Angle's title win as one for the NWA World Title, indicating it was stripped of Cage prior to the match. Based on that, it can be assumed that Cage was "technically" the first TNA champion. 204.62.140.201 16:06, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

This is how you can look at it: http://www.cygywrestling.com/titlehistories/nwatnaworldheavyweighttitle.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by MC511 (talk • contribs) 01:15, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

So they will have the same title history up to Ken Shamrock winning the Championship. Vermon CaTaffy 8

At least that's what TNA is claiming. Doesn't mean we have to indulge their revisionism. Jeff Silvers 01:45, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I do not see it as revisionism. They are just renaming the title. Vermon CaTaffy 8

It's revisionism because TNA has no right to claim the history of a title they don't own (even if it was being defended in their promotion at the time). Jeff Silvers 02:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • And also what do you think the TNA X Division Championship will look like? Vermon CaTaffy 8
From what I understand, it lacks the big red X of the previous belt. Jeff Silvers 02:02, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
TNA's site makes it clear, the TNA Title REPLACED the NWA Title. That means they are seperate titles even according to TNA. TNA has Cage listed as the last NWA Champion and first TNA Champion. TJ Spyke 02:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Would it matter that during the TNA era of the title that TNA were the ones who booked the NWA world champions? Maybe that's where TNA is coming from with their decision not to remove the other names. But clearly they state that the TNA title replaced the NWA titles.TonyFreakinAlmeida 11:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Champ

Did anyone other then TJ Spyke see Christian Cage listed as the “first” TNA Champion on TNAWrestling.com? I ask because I check TNAWrestling daily (TNA Today) and not once did I ever see anything that named Christian Cage the “1st” TNA Champion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNAWrestling (talk • contribs) 22:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

It has been stated that when Ken Shamrock defeated Jerry “Malice” Tuite on June 19, 2002, he became recognized as the World Heavyweight Champion for both Total Nonstop Action Wrestling and the National Wrestling Alliance. Tonight on TNA Impact, Mike Tenay and Konnan talked about LAX being former World Tag Team Champions and losing the titles to Team 3D, meaning TNA Wrestling is using the same history. Also, next week Mike Tenay announced two former World Champions (Spoiler: Chris Harris and James Storm) would be competing in the King of the Mountain Qualifying Matches, again meaning TNA Wrestling is using the same history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.238.179.243 (talk) 02:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Harris and Storm are not former World Champions (unless you mean World Tag Team Champions. TNA reckonizes past NWA Champions as world champions, that doesn't mean they consider it the same world title. TNA also lists every NWA Champion, do you think Grank Gotch should be considered a former TNA Champion? Cage is the FIRST TNA World Champion, and TNA considers him a 3 time World Champion (2 NWA, 1 TNA). Just because they don't ignore every world title doesn't mean they consider a seperate title part of their title. TJ Spyke 02:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Category:World heavyweight wrestling championships

I added this article to Category:World heavyweight wrestling championships. This categorization was removed because the title has not been granted "official" world status (presumably by PWI). However, the qualifications for being placed in that category (as described on the category's page) is that the title must be "claimed as world titles by their organization." Jeff Silvers 01:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Not quite true. Only titles that actualy have a legit claim can. Half the indy feds out there call their title a world title. PWI probably will give the TNA title world title status, so it doesn't bother me. TJ Spyke 02:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Meh, I guess. I think I just have a problem with how we consider PWI the absolute gold standard as far as world titles are concerned. Jeff Silvers 03:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
True, but there is no doubt in my mind that the TNA title will gain official World status from PWI in the coming weeks.-- bulletproof 3:16 03:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Better image

I really hope TNA releases some promotional images of the belt soon. The picture we have right now is of pretty low quality because it's just a screencap of a YouTube video. As soon as somebody can get their hands on a better fair use or free image (preferably free, but that might not be possible for a while), we need to get it in the article. Jeff Silvers 01:01, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I am sure we will get one very soon. Vermon CaTaffy 8

We can even consider a screenshot of Impact!, can we not? --Aaru Bui DII 09:08, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Sure, but we should only consider it if it provides a better quality close-up of the belt than what we already have. Jeff Silvers 13:04, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Until tomorrow night, no. It will just be reverted the same way posting a written spoiler would (even though it's not really a spoiler since they are already the champions). TJ Spyke 23:33, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Damn. This kind of thing is a prime example of why we really need to drop our policy of maintaining kayfabe. Jeff Silvers 00:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Not really, it's a good policy and it works just fine. TJ Spyke 00:40, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Edited belt image

I edited the image of the belt in the article in Photoshop (increased lighting and contrast) to better illustrate the belt's detail. It's still a bit difficult to make out some of the design's features, and as I've said before, we will hopefully see some promo images released by TNA soon. Jeff Silvers 02:44, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

...Is there any reason why my image was reverted to the darker, harder-to-see one? Jeff Silvers 12:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I didn't do it, but maybe because your image was too bright? You can barely see the belt because it's so bright. TJ Spyke 00:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

NWA / TNA Champions

Go here http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/index.html and click on any former NWA World Heavyweight Champion. They now list their titles they have won in TNA and they will be recognizing the the NWA and TNA titles under the same lineage simply as "World Heavyweight Champion". This doesn't make the titles the same, it just shows you the list of "World Heavyweight Champions" in TNA, whether they be NWA or TNA World Champs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MC511 (talk • contribs) 08:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

AJ Styles is a good example: http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/ajstyles/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by MC511 (talk • contribs) 08:57, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

World Title History

Should the TNA World Heavyweight title have the history of TNA era NWA World Heavyweight Champions. I know there not official TNA World Heavyweight champions but, they were World Champions in TNA. The NWA World Tag Team title history article has the NWA World Tag Team (Mid-Antlantic version) title included in its article before an official NWA World Tag Team belt of the NWA and their not the same title. I think the same thing should be done with the TNA World Tag Team titles. This is something that should be discussed. 5TimeWCWChamp 03:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and TNA themselves will be recognizing the World Champions in TNA that held the NWA World Heavyweight Title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MC511 (talk • contribs) 03:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't, the NWA and TNA titles are two seperate titles. The TNA website even says they are not the same title. I disagree with the NWA Tag Title situation because they are NOT the same titles. The Mid-Atlantic were only regional titles and no different than the other regional tag belts, the FIRST NWA World Tag Team Champions were crowned in 1992 (when the NWA finally decided to have a set of world tag team belts rather than just let every region have their own "world" tag title belts). Maybe I will take a look at the page and fix it. TJ Spyke 05:30, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
They took down the title history page from their site a couple days ago if you haven't noticed. They're probably using the KOTM match at Slammiversary to crown the first champion. In my opinion they botched the title lineage by having Christian be the first champion on it and only having a reign that literally lasted hours, and Kurt's reign that would last 1 day to 4? Yeah that's not a way to build prestige to a title, at least that's my feeling and may be reason why they might be changing their minds. TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
It's too late to crown a first champion though since 2 men have already held the title. TNA can say what they want, but they can't change that (just like WCW tried to pretend that the WCW and NWA belts were 1 title). TJ Spyke 01:10, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually they can say what they want. Most of their fans probably didn't know that the NWA titles had been vacated before the show started. Christian was still announced as NWA Heavyweight Champion of the World in the ring, and Angle was later announced simply World Heavyweight Champion. The first guy they put the new belt on(without stripping the next day of course)is in my eyes the first champion. Probably to many casual fans eyes right now Angle was TNA Champion after beating Christian the NWA Champion. Also Christian's stripping of the title happened the same day he "lost" the title to Angle, it's just going to be a date on the lineage to most people. TonyFreakinAlmeida 14:34, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
I know TNA can say what they want and you can believe what you want, i'm just saying that it doesn't change the fact that Cage was the first champion (even TNA said this on their website) and that he lost the belt to Angle. So whoever wins the belt at Slammiversary will be the 3rd champion. TJ Spyke 22:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

TJ Spyke, at no time did TNA Wrestling, TNAWrestling.com, Mike Tenay, Don West, Jim Cornette, or anyone else ever referred to Christian Cage or Kurt Angle as the “first” TNA Champion … nor at anytime did anyone state the “first”, "second", or "third" TNA Champion would be crowned at Slammiversary. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNAWrestling (talk • contribs) 22:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, yes they did. When they had the title histories for the TNA titles up, they had had Cage listed as the first TNA Champion. TJ Spyke 22:32, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

-- -- -- In another sign that TNA Wrestling will continue to recognize the same World Championship history/lineage … on the Impact preview, TNAWrestling.com wrote the following:

“KING OF THE MOUNTAIN QUALIFYING MATCH: JEFF JARRETT VS. “THE PHENOMENAL” AJ STYLES Two longtime enemies will compete this Thursday night on SpikeTV in another King of the Mountain qualifying match as it will be Jeff Jarrett facing “The Phenomenal” AJ Styles! Jarrett and Styles have gone to war over the World Heavyweight Title in the past – and this Thursday night they will reignite their bad blood as only one TNA star will advance to the Slammiversary Pay-Per-View main event!”

They didn’t say they feuded over “a World Heavyweight title”, they didn’t say they feuded over the “NWA Heavyweight title”, they said they feuded over “the World Heavyweight title”, the same "World Heavyweight title" that has been apart of TNA Wrestling since June 2002. -- -- -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNAWrestling (talk • contribs) 22:47, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Just an idea, but is it possible we include the history of the World Heavyweight, starting with Ken Shamrock winning the Gauntlet for the Gold on June 19, 2002 and point out that TNA Wrestling and the NWA both recognized the champions, but the NWA dropped their recognition on May 13th? TNA Wrestling always pointed out that Ken Shamrock and the team of AJ Styles & Jerry Lynn were the “first” recognized champions in TNA era. There were several times since 2002 that when the World Champions were defending the titles outside of TNA, they were billed as “TNA Champions” and at times were billed as “NWA Champions”. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNAWrestling (talk • contribs) 22:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Except for the fact that Christian Cage is the first person to hold this title. Ken Shamrock has nothing to do with this title at all. TJ Spyke 22:56, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
TJ Spyke, Ken Shamrock was the first recognized World Champion in TNA Wrestling, PERIOD. It does not matter what the name of the title was, what letters were on the physical belt, or what promotions did or didn’t recognize it. Ken Shamrock was the first man to be billed as the World Heavyweight Champion in TNA Wrestling. You are so focused on the little things, that you refuse to look at the big picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNAWrestling (talk • contribs) 00:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I am. Yes Shamrock was the first champion in TNA, but as the NWA World Champion. He is not a former TNA World Champion, and has nothing at all to do with this belt. They are seperate belts, with seperate title histories. TJ Spyke 00:15, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

= = Not that anyone (especially TJ Spyke) cares, but over on TNAWrestling.com, they announced that TNA Destination X will be released on DVD on June 19th, the match between Christian Cage and Samoa Joe is listed as being for the “World Heavyweight Title” and the not the “NWA Championship"”, seemingly removing the “NWA“ from their history all together. TNAWrestling 23:17, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, so they are merging their TNA Titles with the NWA (TNA Era) Championship histories. It's so obvious, so Wikipedia should recognize this too. For the WWE Light Heavyweight Title, we don't recognize the champions before Tanaka because WWE doesn't, why aren't we following TNA religiously like we do to WWE here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.62.143 (talk) 16:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Uhh... actually Wikipedia does recognize WWF Light Heavyweight Champions before "TAKA"-- bulletproof 3:16 05:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

1st Champion Conclusion

TNA took down the title history pages completely, but look at Christian Cage's profile: http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/christiancage/index.html He is a 3-time World Heavyweight Champion, meaning 2-time NWA, and 1-time TNA. Kurt Angle is a 1-time World Heavyweight Champion: http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/kurtangle/index.html So Christian Cage was the first ever TNA World Heavyweight Champion, and Kurt Angle the second. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MC511 (talk • contribs) 07:27, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Here is a picture of Kurt Angle as TNA Champion: https://secure19.nexternal.com/dns/images/eagleangle2.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.62.143 (talk) 22:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

-- MC511, that is clearly an error on the web page made by the staff, as it clearly states and shows in the profile that he is only a two time World Heavyweight Champion. If you “theory” was correct then Team 3D would be listed as two time World Tag Team Champions, 1x TNA and 1x TNA Tag Team Champions and if you look at their profiles (http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/brotherray/index.html or http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/brotherdevon/index.html) they are only listed as 1x World Tag Team Champions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNAWrestling (talk • contribs) 22:25, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Before they removed the title pages, that is how they listed Team 3D. It's pretty simple, Cage was the first TNA World Champion (making him a 3 time world champion) and Team 3D are the first TNA Tag Champions (making them 1 time NWA Tag Champions and 1 time TNA Tag Champions. TJ Spyke 22:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

-- TJ Spyke ..

You can check any profile currently on TNAWrestling.com and see the same thing. TNA Wrestling continues to recognize the same history/linage of the “World Heavyweight Championship” that has been apart of their company since their debut pay per view on June 19th, when Ken Shamrock defeated Malice (RIP) in the finals of the Gauntlet for the Gold to become the “first World Heavyweight Champion” in the TNA era. If you go to TNAWrestling.com, you can clearly see in the updated profiles, that the only thing that changed in TNA Wrestling was the look of the title and that is it … the history DID NOT change.

http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/ajstyles/index.html http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/jeffjarrett/index.html http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/kurtangle/index.html http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/sting/index.html http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/abyss/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by TNAWrestling (talk • contribs) 22:30, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I think TNA may be looking at this the same way the WWE changed their name from WWF to WWE. That sure didn’t make Hulk Hogan a 6 time WWF Champion and a 1 time WWE Champion, or Eddie Guerrero a 2 time WWF Intercontinental Champion and a 1 time WWE Intercontinental Champion. I think TNA just used the controversy as a story line that has nothing to do with the title itself. Look at the X Title and the Tag Titles. The confusion is coming from the KOTM Tournament. It’s just a new BELT and NAME, but it’s the same TITLE and HISTORY.--Prince Patrick 16:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that, TNA has every right to recognize the world champions that they booked as their own. It's good that they're using the term World Heavyweight Champion in the wrestlers profiles instead of saying for example 2 time NWA World Champ, 1 time TNA World Champ. Makes it simple, 3 time world heavyweight champion in the company, because it's the truth. TonyFreakinAlmeida 16:59, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The IC Title example is WRONG. It's the same title, just the promotion changed names. The NWA Title and TNA Titles are SEPERATE. TJ Spyke 02:19, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, TNA acknowledged that the NWA title preceded the TNA title in the TNA world title history page, before they take it down that is. By the way, how did someone retrieve a link to that page on TNA's web site. When it was posted here I searched through TNA's site and the link to the NWA world championship history still only brought me to the page showing the NWA world champs of the TNA era, I wasn't able to find the TNA World Title history link. Was that found through, "questionable means", of some sort? To me it seems that TNA prematurely put the page online and someone found it. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:49, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

http://www.wrestling-titles.com recognizes Christian Cage as the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion, and Kurt Angle as the second champion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MC511 (talk • contribs) 22:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

We realize that, but Wrestling-titles is not an official source. TonyFreakinAlmeida 23:06, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Before they took down the page altogether, TNA did the same. TJ Spyke 23:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah but I'm wondering is how did someone find the link? I searched through that site when the link was posted here, and could find nothing linking to that history. TonyFreakinAlmeida 16:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I think you were right, someone found it before TNA was ready to make it public. I don't know how, but i'm sure it's an easy thing to do if you know how. TJ Spyke 21:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I know this is sort of stupid but at the Slammiversary Fanfest, Borash asked Samoa Joe in front of the fans there if Joe will become the first TNA World Champion, Borash's words, don't know if this is a slip of the tongue or what, if you want to watch [2]TonyFreakinAlmeida 21:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I just watched Sacrifice again and they NEVER announced Christian as world heavyweight champion...what they did do was announce Cage as "The defending NWA Champion" which since is untrue NO title was on the line at Sacrifice, so Cage and Angle had no title wins..But the FIRST time that the TNA world title was on the line was Slammiversary...on the pre-show Jeremy Borash said " tonight the King Of The Mountain match will be to crown the FIRST EVER TNA World Champion" and also it was the first time the TNA belt was on the graphic. So basically this proves that Kurt Angle is the FIRST EVER TNA Champion. I am even watching impact right now and they are referring to Angle as the First TNA Champion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.46.185 (talk) 04:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The on-screen graphic for Cage said "World Heavyweight Champion". TNA has only said Angle is the first "undisputed" champion since Angle's win at Sacrifice was controversial, but TNA does count Cage as the first champion and Angle the second and third. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Kfp17DpbcqA TJ Spyke 04:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Jeremy Borash said cage was the defending NWA Champion of the world..which means he was defending the NWA championship.

again here it is, wether TNA says it or not..wether we say it or not..fact is Angle is the first TNA champion http://youtube.com/watch?v=hDK7z3Bqfdo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.1.71 (talk) 03:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

TNA says Cage is the first TNA Champion, and have always said that. END OF STORY. Nobody considers Angle the first champion (the only thing even close is them saying Angle is the first undisputed champion). TJ Spyke 04:06, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

when has TNA EVER said " THERES CHRISTAIN, THE FIRST TNA CHAMPION"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.1.71 (talk) 05:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Multiple times if you wanted to read the rest of this page. Of is TNA saying Cage is a 3 time world champion (2 NWA, 1 TNA) and Angle a 2 time champion (both TNA) for no reason? TJ Spyke 06:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Stats

Christian Cage and Kurt Angle were both billed as 238lbs at TNA Sacrifice during the in-ring introductions. Being that Christian walked in as champion and that was his first day as champion, and Kurt walked out as champion, they were both the same weight at the time of holding the title. Someone keeps changing this though so that the weights go by each man's wikipedia page billed weight. It should go by what they were billed as that night, not average weight listed on the wikipages. TonyFreakinAlmeida 17:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

NWA Title to TNA Title

So does the TNA World Heavyweight Title then take lineage to the NWA World Heavyweight Title branch of champions from June 2002 until May 2007 in TNA???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MC511 (talk • contribs) 02:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

TNA reconizes those world title reigns, but as NWA Champions. They do not consider those people to be former TNA World Champions. TJ Spyke 03:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
That wasnt the question. They can still link lineage even though they're not "TNA" World Champions, they're "NWA" World Champions. You just make a note of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.62.143 (talk) 23:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Right now there is no proof they have the same lineage. TJ Spyke 00:05, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

TNA World Title

Considering that the standard for wikipedia's idea of a World Title is PWI(of all things), does anyone have any idea whether or not PWI consider the TNA World Title to indeed be a World Title? Pretty pedantic I know, but possibly relevant....

Not yet, but it probably will get the status from PWI, maybe once Slammiversary is over and an undisputed champion of the company has been crowned. WCW got their status right after they declared their first champion, the NWA status was dropped right after. I expect the same to happen here, I'm guessing it hasn't been awarded by PWI because they might be as confused as anyone as to who has held the TNA title. TNA never officially announced or made note that Christian was declared their first champion except for on the title history page which has been removed, and the Kurt Angle win of the title is definitely a Dusty finish(a decision that would be overturned). So it isn't known officially as of yet whether these two reigns will be recognized once TNA officially makes the page live on their site. TonyFreakinAlmeida 21:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

NWA World Title history in TNA is recorded in the lineage of TNA's World Title

Today on iMPACT! at the end they stated this: "The next step in the evolution of the World Heavyweight Championship will be decided this Sunday in King of the Mountain at Slammiversary." While this was being said they showed clips of their first champion, Ken Shamrock, and others such as Ron Killings, Jeff Jarrett, AJ Styles, Raven, Rhino, Christian Cage, Sting, Abyss, and former TNA World Heavyweight Champion, Kurt Angle. This definitely spells it out that the World Heavyweight Champions in TNA are all under the same lineage. It's just that from June 19, 2002 to May 13, 2007, all World Champions in TNA were recognized by the National Wrestling Alliance (NWA). After that, the recognition was dropped and the title was replaced with the TNA World Heavyweight Title, continuing the lineage of World Champions in TNA Wrestling.

Here is what the title history should look like: http://www.cygywrestling.com/titlehistories/tnaworldheavyweighttitle.html MC511 02:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

They aren't the same lineage though. TNA is just not ignoring people that have won a world title in TNA. As for that site, nice site other than the fact that they are trying to say that 2 different titles are the same. Only 2 men are recognized as former TNA World Heavyweight Champions. As of right now, this is what the title history looks like (and should look like IMO): http://www.wrestling-titles.com/us/tna/tna-h.html TJ Spyke 02:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
No they aren't the same title per say, but they do share lineage. This is not the same situation we had back during the NWA/WCW days. WCW never had exclusive rights to the NWA World Heavyweight Title like TNA did. Back then, the NWA World Heavyweight Title was NWA's title, today it was TNA's title, and now once again NWA's title. Back in WCW, the NWA Champions were NWA's Champions, today the NWA Champions were TNA's Champions, not NWA, until recently when the NWA pulled out and started their own tournament. Understand? MC511 02:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
And also, the site you provided is a site that doesn't even show NWA & WCW US Champions under the WWE US Title History page like it should. That is a great site yes, but not too accurate at times I notice. They kind of make things up from time to time in different sections. MC511 02:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
There's a difference between the lineage and the history page that TNA had on their site. In that history page that TNA had, they said the NWA title was replaced by the TNA title, does this mean that they share the same lineage? No, it's just that historically, the NWA title was TNA's original world title, and of course they're not just going to drop all of those names off of their web site, and forget about their title histories. They're two different titles, they're two different lineages, it's just on TNA's site, the titles' histories will share the same page. TonyFreakinAlmeida 02:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
As should Wikipedia's page. TNA in their roster page even says Christian Cage is a 3-time World Heavyweight Champion. The NWA World Heavyweight Title that he held was replaced with the TNA World Heavyweight Title, recognizing that NWA had dropped and now TNA restarted their champions under the same lineage because those were TNA's champions and awarded them new belts as a replacement. MC511 02:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
If you notice though, TNA also has the entire NWA Title history on their site (all the way back to 1904). Do you want those included too? We already have a page on the NWA Title lineage for those interested in it, this page is just for the TNA World Heavyweight Championship. They are seperate title lineages, TNA is just showing the title history of both titles while making it clear they are seperate. TJ Spyke 03:02, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
TNA had a seperate page showing all those champions just for the heck of it when showing how prestigious the NWA World Heavyweight Title actually was. But the NWA World Heavyweight Champion's in TNA are TNA's World Champions. I agree that the Champions before Ken Shamrock have no place in the lineage of TNA's World Heavyweight Title history, but the NWA (TNA) World Heavyweight Champions from 2002-2007 do have a place. MC511 03:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
At the end of the day, Ken Shamrock represents the first "World Heavvyweight Champion" ever in TNA Wrestling. This page should be showcasing every World Champion in TNA, with a note stating when the champion was known as NWA World Heavyweight Champion and when the champion became known as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion. MC511 03:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
TNA said he is the first champion of the TNA era (in one of the commericals for Slammiversary when talking about the past 5 years). Not quite as saying the first champion in TNA. I just think that listing NWA Champions on the TNA Title page could be confusing, especially with men that win both. Christian Cage, for example), would have a 2 next to his last NWA Title reign and then a 1 next to his first TNA Title reign. TJ Spyke 03:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
You would list Christian Cage as 3. Just like you list Chris Benoit as 5 for the United States Title. When you break it down on his profile page though, you list him as 3 for WWE US Title and 2 for WCW US Title. Same would go for when breaking the wrestlers down under Total Nonstop Action Wrestling with the NWA Title and TNA Title. MC511 03:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Folks, all previous champions are referred to as former TNA champs just to keep things simple. It's just not necessary to refer to Cage as a two time NWA Champion (and one time TNA Champion) when it's easier to say he's a three time champion. Ditto for WWE, where those who hold both the WWE and World titles are announced as holding a generic "world title" the set number of times (see Kurt Angle and Ric Flair). Mshake3 03:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

So do you then agree that we should recognize champions from June 19, 2002 to May 13, 2007 from TNA Wrestling in this article? Such as here: http://www.cygywrestling.com/titlehistories/tnaworldheavyweighttitle.html MC511 04:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Hell no. Because that's inaccurate. But when you're calling a wrestling match, go ahead. But you can't change history. So stop it.
It's not changing history. This is the history of TNA. MC511 04:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
Also to point out, when they mentioned "evolution", that means that the TNA World Title has evolved from the NWA World Title. Here is the definition of evolution: any process of formation or growth; development. This helps further the belief that the lineage is shared from NWA-TNA Champions in 2002-2007.
TNA's World Title does not share lineage with NWA World Heavyweight Champions before June 19, 2002 or after May 13, 2007, but does with champions on and between these dates.MC511 05:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
The TNA Title didn't evolve from the NWA Title though, it replaced the title. I should also point out that we couldn't consider NWA Champions from 2002-2007 to be former holders of this title anyways unless TNA specifically said it, otherwise it would be OR. TJ Spyke 23:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Should Angle's first reign be counted?

It was explained on TV that Angle just kind of "left with the title" after Sacrifice and came out with the title on Impact, causing Cornette to vacated the title. This could've happened with Sting as well, he could've just "left with the title". Plenty of wrestlers left with a championship but never declared an actual champion. IMO, this means this reign shouldn't be counted and it should be "Vacated" after Christian's reign. The World Heavyweight Championship (WWE) was vacated after a similar finish with Benoit-Edge-Triple H. BBoy

I get your point. This is similar to Sting-Goldberg at Halloween Havoc 1999. Goldberg won the WCW Title for what seemed to be a 2nd time, but he was stripped the next night because it was a non-title match, therefore that reign didn't count.
Yeah it was a Dusty finish, but we'll have to wait until we see what TNA says. TonyFreakinAlmeida 20:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
When TNA put the history of the belt up, it included both Cage and Angle. So for right now, Angle is officially in his second reign. TJ Spyke 21:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
True that. And on TNAwrestling.com they did say Angle was "STRIPPED" of the title, meaning he held it for a brief time. MC511 22:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

If I am not mistaken, last night when Kurt Angle won the King of the Mountain match, Mike Tenay said it was Kurt Angle’s first World Championship in TNA Wrestling. Making it sound like Kurt Angle never won the World Heavyweight Championship from Christian Cage on May 13th at Sacrifice, and the title was held up due to out come of the match. Maybe the "history page" was an error and that is why it was taken down so fast. TNAWrestling 01:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, but as of right now it is valid. Maybe TNA will decide to not count Cage and Angle's first reigns, I can't even find the title history page (either version) on TNA anymore. TJ Spyke 02:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I just watched the end of the match on Dailymotion, Don West called him the "first pure TNA Champion". TonyFreakinAlmeida 12:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Mike Tenay at Slammiversary: "Angle is hoping to win his first TNA World Heavyweight title", "Ever since the title was held up at Sacrifice" BBoy
If Kurt's reign right now at Slammiversary is indeed the first TNA Championship reign, then what will happen with the title match at Sacrifice? What championship was Cage holding if that wasn't the NWA or TNA Title? Even though TNA doesn't recognize it, doesn't mean we don't. Remember all those little reigns with Flair and the NWA Title that aren't recognized officially? Well we still recognize them here because those quick switches did indeed happen. So we should just let it be here too. MC511 20:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Well TNA never said on TV that the NWA had stripped 3D and Cage of their world titles. Cage was introduced as NWA World Heavyweight Champion in the ring at Sacrifice(even though NWA had officially retaken control of the NWA Heavyweight title and stripped him before the match), but referred to in the name bar as he entered as World Heavyweight Champion, also still wearing the NWA World Heavyweight Championship belt. It had been said before this event happened that TNA already had the new title belts, my opinion has been this, if they really wanted to just drop new titles and belts into their promotion and get rid of the old ones, they would have just done so with this PPV, but, they did not. My thoughts are this was booked as a dusty finish, the disputed finish of the WHC match between Cage, Sting and Angle was a way to introduce the new TNA heavyweight title to the viewers. Angle "walked out" with the NWA belt, thinking he was champion. The next night with almost no explanation has the TNA belt around his waist(talk about confusing), Cornette said Cage surely lost the match, but the title was being held up due to the finish of the match. The way the TNA belt was just thrust into television gives me the idea that TNA will most likely bridge Cage's reign as NWA Champion into the extended title lineage of the World Heavyweight Championship(NWA and TNA title histories together) and probably regard Angle as the first TNA champion of their World title lineage, as in viewers eyes, he was the first(and maybe even second)man to hold the new title belt symbolizing him as TNA champion. TonyFreakinAlmeida 18:42, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes: http://www.tnawrestling.com/roster/kurtangle/index.html MC511 03:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Yep, that settles it. TNA officially counts Angle's "first" reign. Although I still don't like how they refer to the NWA and TNA belts as the same title (Christian Cage is listed as a 3 time World Heavyweight Champion) BBoy

I think Tnawrestling.com is counting angles first reign as a NWA reign, since they didnt announce on TV that the NWA had stripped cage and the dudleyz

If you were right, why do they list Christian as a 3 time World champion if only on TV he held it twice? The "NWA" name was removed from TNA a couple of hours before the PPV started, TNA just had to use the physical belts because they didn't have the new ones prepared yet. BBoy

TNA’s title histories should start in June/July 2002

Mike Tenay continued to follow TNA storylines last night, saying that World Heavyweight Championship was “held-up” following the Three Way Match at Sacrifice, and “tonight TNA would crown an undisputed World Heavyweight Champion”. Mike Tenay also noted that LAX ruled Tag Team Wrestling in TNA for nearly a year, earning two reigns, before losing the World Tag Team Titles to reigning champions Team 3D. I think we should recognize the history from June 19, 2002 (Ken Shamrock) to June 17, 2007 (Kurt Angle) and July 03, 2002 (AJ Styles & Jerry Lynn) to reigning champions Team 3D (04-15-07) and just point out that the champions from June/July 2002 until May 2007, where recognized by both TNA Wrestling and NWA. I said it before and I will say it again, TNA Wrestling and NWA both recognized Ken Shamrock as “their” World Heavyweight Champion, and continued to do so until the NWA withdrew their recognition in May 2007. When NWA stopped recognizing Christian Cage, TNA Wrestling didn‘t, and he remained their World Heavyweight Champion. TNAWrestling 16:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

It's NWA's belts, I would rather trust their word than TNA's BBoy.
I agree with user TNAWrestling, the lineage does connect and I've gotten word from a source within TNA that the lineage from here on out will forever be linked. June 19, 2002 up till present time. Those were TNA's champions recognized by the NWA.
Uh-huh, you have a "source". What is with this speculation that these unrelate belts share the same lineage? TNA has never said that. They are just using a generic world title term the same way WWE does (like when Coachman said any former world champion could challenge John Cena at Vengeance, and that included Bobby Lashley and King Booker). TJ Spyke 21:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
This isn't WWE, this is TNA and these are champions of TNA Wrestling. But whatever, this is going no where.
Yes, champions of TNA and the NWA Title was a title of TNA for 5 years. TJ Spyke 01:59, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
Well it's official, champions from June 19, 2002 to May 13, 2007 are counted under the lineage because today on iMPACT! Jim Cornette said that Angle will be facing "two former TNA Champions" next week on iMPACT! and those two former champions (Spoiler warning) will be Christian Cage and Rhino, who both held the World Heavyweight Title in TNA that was formerly recognized by the NWA. MC511 01:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
That's no official. WWE has done the same thing regarding the WWE/World Heavyweight Championship (referring to Randy Orton as the "yougest WWE Champion"). TJ Spyke 01:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Shamrock up to Christian were World Champions of TNA. They simply just dropped out NWA and replaced it with TNA, same lineage. MC511 01:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
World champions of TNA, but not TNA World Heavyweight Champions. It would be like saying that Ricky Steamboat should be considered a former WCW World Heavyweight Champion because he held the NWA World Title when it was still being defended in WCW (before WCW had their own world title). TJ Spyke 01:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
No it's not like saying Ricky is a WCW World Champion. You still list the NWA Champions under the TNA Champions list of champions, but you make a note of the historical date of May 13, 2007 when NWA was dropped and replaced with TNA. Shamrock to Christian stay as NWA Champions, but the lineage continues with TNA Champions. MC511 01:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Check this out, proves my point: http://www.tnawrestling.com/info/history/tnaworldpreview.html MC511 01:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't just including a note and link to the NWA World Title page do the same thing? At the very least, your link prooves that TNA doesn't consider Cage to be the firs TNA World Heavyweight Champion. TJ Spyke 01:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
It proves that the lineage is connected. MC511 01:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Maybe in the same way that the World Heavyweight Championship and WCW Title have the same "lineage". TJ Spyke 02:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Alright I changed the history page to reflect what the TNA page and what I've been talking about. Here is what I said to seperate the reigns between NWA and TNA Champions: "The TNA-based NWA World Heavyweight Champion is stripped and no longer recognized as champion by the NWA on May 13, 2007. Christian Cage remains recognized as World Heavyweight Champion in TNA, thus becoming the first TNA World Heavyweight Champion in the continuation of World Heavyweight Championship lineage in TNA Wrestling." I said "TNA-based" because the NWA World Heavyweight Title from June 19, 2002 to May 13, 2007 was owned by TNA themselves, the NWA did not have any control whatsoever, and these where NWA World Heavyweight Champions based in TNA Wrestling. That should clarify things. Thus the lineage is continued with the TNA World Heavyweight Title, but only NWA World Champions from June 19, 2002 to May 13, 2007 starting with Ken Shamrock and ending with Christian Cage. MC511 02:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Technically, TNA never owned the belt. They were just allowed to do what they wanted with it, but the NWA still owned the belt. It's sorta how like the WWF let the UWA do whatever they wanted with the WWF Light Heavyweight Championship, even though WWF still owned the belt (which WWF prooved when they took the belt back in 1997). TJ Spyke 02:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Yeah I know they never owned the belt, I just stated it that way here in this discussion. But if you want to go more in-depth I can, TNA gained complete control of the titles when they were made exclusive to TNA in 2002. We can go even more in-depth with that, but this is just a discussion. MC511 02:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
"Controlled" would be more accurate than "owned", just saying. TJ Spyke 02:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Yup that sounds better. I should have put more thought into it. MC511 02:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The Cage/Angle issue

I've added to the text as it's confusing why Cage isn't listed as the first TNA champion. Despite TNA not really alluding as to why he isn't - this is canon - Angle is the first. White43 21:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

If Cage is the first champion - why not put him in the table? That's ridiculous. White43 21:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
You can't say that Cage is the first champion and then not include him in the table. White43 21:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
TNA has only said Angle is the first undisputed champion, not the first champion. Cage wasn't listed in the table because an IP removed him. TJ Spyke 21:17, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I see. I thought it strange that Cage was not there. He should be added as the first champion on the 'list'. Cheers. White43 21:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
What are you talking about? I never messed up the table - didn't do anything to it! White43 21:22, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
You may not have meant to, but you did. Here is your last edit to the page: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=TNA_World_Heavyweight_Championship&oldid=139987198. TJ Spyke 21:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
Weird. Never touched the table. Anyway, glad to see it's all good. White43 21:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Angle is the first...didnt anybody watch the Slamiversary preshow? if u need proof i can put up videos from sacrifice and slammiversary on youtube that will prove angle is the first champion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.1.71 (talk) 03:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

well here is the proff that the NWA title which wasnt even christains was on the line at sacrifice proving angle is first champion http://youtube.com/watch?v=hDK7z3Bqfdo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.139.1.71 (talk) 03:41, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

While that might be 'canon' for TNA history, in actuality Cage WAS the first champion.87.127.178.28 09:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

- It is going to get even more confusing! During Impact on Thursday night, Jim Cornette billed Christian Cage and Rhino both as “former TNA World Champions”. The first recognized “World Champion” in TNA Wrestling was Ken Shamrock, it don’t matter if it was the “NWA” or “TNA” championship, what matters is that Ken Shamrock was the first “World Heavyweight Champion” in TNA Wrestling and the history should show that. TNAWrestling 21:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)