Talk:Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius

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[edit] Archives

Old talk (roughly, through 2004) is archived at:

[edit] Translating the title from Latin

Pardon the extreme weakness of my grasp of Latin, but doesn't Orbis Tertius mean "third world"? If so, shouldn't that be stated somewhere in the article? Difficult though it may be to believe, some literate people have an even feebler grasp of Latin than I do and won't guess that. Michael Hardy 00:24, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

"Third world" is a possibility; I think "third circle" is more likely. I'll get both into the article. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:27, Jan 23, 2005 (UTC)
I think that orbis (orbs?) implies three dimensions: an orb, a globe. --Error 01:51, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[1] seems to bear me out, but I'm no Latinist. Can someone who is weigh in? -- Jmabel | Talk 02:30, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
Orbis tertius should mean "the third (man) of the globe (orbis)" in that "orbis" is genitive from orbs-orbis. Umberto Eco's novel "The name of the rose", where he quotes Borges a lot, shows a trick like this "the first and seventh of four (quatuor)". Vincenzo.romano 16:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
From this last option another possibility arises. The sentence "Orbis Tertius" would then be translated as "the third (letter) of (the word) orbis". That is "b" as in Borges! Vincenzo.romano 16:56, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I feel like this fast becoming more appropriate to the wikibbalah. - Jmabel | Talk 07:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] tlon, uqbar and orbis tertius ARE real places!!

To hell with wiki guidelines; this way of presenting the idea of that story is completely contradictory to its intent. Is there a better place to do what the Tlonist did with the edition of the Anglo-American Cyclopedia then wiki????? One generation should be enough!! Also, it should be made a principle to put false references in all Borges - related articles.—This unsigned comment was added by 83.131.130.232 (talk • contribs) 17 March 2006.

I wrote this. Look, I had no intention to sound as anthagonistic as this, I see now, certanly sounded; im a great fan of literature by Borges, and have frequently been inspired by this story. But when seeing an article, admittadly generally great and informative, about Tlon, in an encyclopedia, and ironically not seeing a single information in it fabricated, simply irritated me quite a lot. Well, if an article about recursion links to recursion, then at least some false references should exist in an article about Tlon.  :D --Aryah 21:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

By this logic, our article about Hitler should kill people. - Jmabel | Talk 04:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
By your logic, our article about Godwin's Law should have annotations by Mike Godwin himself.Brodo 10:15, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
an article, about Hitler, which kills people is not nearly as appropriate as a story starting with a falsified entry in encyclopedia, where belief in the existance of something makes it real, by an author famous for falsifying references, having at least some similarly false elements. --Aryah 01:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Romantically, i completely agree with you. Practically, i have to point out the slippery slope argument, that the conspiracy theorists will want the rules bent too, as will the religious people, as will the....
Sorry ;(
(and Jmabel was saying the hypothetical article would literally Kill people!) -Quiddity 03:08, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

"Bioy Casares had dined with me that night and talked to us at length about a great scheme for writing a novel in the first person, using a narrator who omitted or corrupted what happened and who ran into various contradictions, so that only a handful of readers, a very small handful, would be able to decipher the horrible or banal reality behind the novel."

This passage comes from the opening of the book, and plays no role in the development of the storyline. Spoken by a narrator in a mind boggling fiction by a genius, i couldn't help but be suspicious that this was a hint towards something in the structure of the story itself (separate from the whole tlon mystery going on inside the world of the book).

I've only read the story once, and didn't notice any obvious contradictions in the narrative. Has Borges just driven me mad with paranoia? or did i totally miss what i was keeping an eye out for?

I think you're reading this too much as something that might resemble the Illuminati. Note that the passage you've quoted actually reflects the circumstances of the Orbius Tertius conspiracy: a small handful of people having implanted various ersatz "facts", theories and other artefacts in the world that manifest numerous contradictions and increasingly corrupt reality... At the same time, certainly Borges is playfully undermining his own role as objective narrator both within the story and as the author of it. Pinkville 13:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm with Pinkville here. - Jmabel | Talk 06:15, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, at one point early in the book I even suspected his friend as being involved in the whole Tlon conspiracy! I, too, recognized how this related to the theme of false images- the whole tlon conspiracy, the egregious atrocity of mirrors and copulation, hahah. Bummer, it would have been crazy cool if there were contradictions in the story itself though...—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.19.81.32 (talk • contribs) 18:34, 20 June 2006

Writting articles about writers or their literary works in the style of the works themselves might be welcomed at Uncyclopedia, however, it's not appropiate for this "serious" encyclopedia.--Rataube 18:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Forget about "on the internet, no one knows you're a dog." Now I've read this story, I'll never trust anything I read on PAPER again, either! Damn You Borges! I think I'm evaporating....

[edit] Supposed cabalist

Cut from article "Boris Baruq Nolt – non-fictional, caballist referenced by his anagrammatic name in the title of the story." This was cited only with a blind URL: http://remi.schulz.club.fr/perec/secret2.htm. Someone had commented in an HTML comment, "I can find no references to this alleged person that are not linked directly to this story. Is there some independent confirmation that such a person ever existed or is this just a prank? This linked article merely refers to an "imaginary" Bulletin that alludes to Borges's story." Exactly. This is almost certain a (dry) joke. I would need to see a much better citation before I'd agree that this belongs in this (featured) article. - Jmabel | Talk 03:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Pinkville 13:42, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Themes, references, figures, etc

Literary: I think the article misses some references to other Borges' tales. I recall a sentence where it's said that all books in Tlon contain a single plot but with all it's possible variations. That's the same idea he develops in "El jardin de los senderos que se bifurcan", published in the same volume (Ficciones). The idea of an encyclopedia containing a whole world resembles the "La biblioteca de Babel", where the library contains the whole world too. I think I may be missing many other of the thematic connections with this tale and the others. A section about the tale and the rest of his work would be nice. Anyone wants to try? We should mention the figures of the laberynth, the mirrors and the theme of the infinity too.--Rataube 17:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

If you have something citable… - Jmabel | Talk 17:35, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Also I think is pretty misleading: "In the context of the imagined world of Tlön, Borges describes a school of literary criticism that arbitrarily assumes that two works are by the same person and, based on that, deduces things about the imagined author." The most obvious interpretention is that the Tlonists are challenging the very idea that two books can be written by the same person, since there is no identity between a person and the same person later in time. It's just the same way, the nine coins lost and the 9 coins found later on can't be the same coins. A person is not the same person five minutes later, therefore there are never two things than by the same person, and there are never two books written by the same author. It seems to me more like a continuation of the 9 coins example, a philosophical issue, rather than the questioning of any literary criticism school. Of course the other interpretation is not necessarily wrong, but unless someone explains which school Borges is allegadely describing (Romatic critics maybe? mmm), and who produced that interpretation, it's too loose and I'm not sure it should go in the article.--Rataube 17:30, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the "stretch": "La crítica suele inventar autores: elige dos obras disímiles - el Tao Te King y las 1001 Noches, digamos -, las atribuye a un mismo escritor y luego determina con probidad la psicología de ese interesante homme de lettres...": In the Irby translation that I have handy, "The critics often invent authors: they select two dissimilar works - the Tao Te Ching and the 1001 Nights, say - attribute them to the same writer and then determine most scrupulously the psychology of this interesting homme de lettres..." - Jmabel | Talk 17:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Carrying on from Jmabel, it's not a question of interpreting Borges, the school of literary criticism is that which he describes in the text. This has nothing to do with the Romantics or anything else in our world (as far as this article goes, anyway). Pinkville 17:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Maybe I didn't read it carefully enough or the text was edited since my last comment. I thought it said there was an implied chritic of some kind to a real-world school of chriticism. But since the sentence starts with "In the context of the imagined world of Tlön", I have no objections. Of course, the theme could be read as a challenge to those chritics that focused too much on authors' biographies (the romantics for example), but that's another story.--Rataube 21:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Borges is most surely referring here to psychologism, I should think.

I don't know if this should go here, but "Buenos Aires at this time was more of an intellectual center than it is in the early 21st century" doesn't seem too NPOV to me. Buenos Aires is, in fact, an intellectual and artistic center in Latin America, and widely respected as one throughout the world. It leads in the performing arts, with acts as De la Guarda and world-renowned authors and directors. The University of Buenos Aires is on par with its european counterparts, especially in the humanities and social sciences. The so-called New Argentine Cinema has been the object of critical acclaim in most film festivals. Nevertheless, it's influence is poorly received in english-speaking countries, perhaps because of the linguistic stretch, but hinting at deeper problems in academic and cultural exchange. Eventhough I'm removing the cited sentence, it shows the limitations of NPOV, as it usually is USA-POV. As often, and probably unavoidably, occurs, neutrality is just hidden ethnocentrism.201.250.194.147 06:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Sebastián

As a matter of fact, the whole paragraph was so extremely condescending I made significant changes. I'm not sure of them, but at least I think now it's less valorative, even at the cost of making it less "poetic". The prospect that the article could have been written by a porteño frightens me, since it would be much self-pityful and uninformed. I hope it's only condescendence.201.250.194.147 06:38, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Sebastián
Last time I checked, "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" itself was written by a "porteño". He did not fare that bad... And to the heart of the matter: I'd favor a very dry exposition without any passing of judgment, or none at all. elpincha 14:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Most of the article appears to have been written by Jmabel, from Seattle, who didn't fare "that bad" at all. I may have sounded pretty harsh, but it was because I found that specific part so condescending, and because I think it goes to show the limitations of NPOV (which, although limited, is, I agree, better than nothing). Reading Jmabel's user page, I can understand his predicament. He had to start from scratch in the subject of argentine intellectuality, since there is little work in the english language. Nevertheless, I recall having seen Beatriz Sarlo's book about Borges (a seminal work in the field) online somewhere, but I don't remember if it was in english or spanish. This problem is obviously the result of the deep divide beetween english-speaking and non-english-speaking intellectuality (which can also be seen in university rankings, which only account for research in the english language, for example). Thus, I commend Jmabel's work (the article itself is thorougly detailed), but make a point of the NPOV problem, since his comment was factual, based on the information he had available. Being this the first time I build up the courage to edit an entry, I think I will continue to do so in the future, since wikipedia could be a good tool, I think, to conquer this divide. 201.250.199.224 02:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Sebastian
There is a book by Beatriz Sarlo available on the web, in English, Borges: a writer on the edge, originally published 1993. Mentioned in this article's reference list. The reference list needs some work. EdJohnston 01:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alastair Reid, Alastair Reed, Alistair Reed?

A minor quibble: how exactly is this man's name spelt? In my book of Borges poems he is listed as a translator with the first spelling; the Wikipedia article gives it likewise. However, on this page both of the other spellings are used. As there is obviously a contradiction on the page (or the remarkable coincidence of three such similarly-named men who are all Borges scholars), I wish to fix it. I simply ask first whether there is some other Reed of whom I am ignorant. Adso de Fimnu 02:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty certain it should be "Alastair Reid". That's what my copy of Borges: A Reader says. - Jmabel | Talk 01:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Library of Congress Names Authorities agrees, s.v. "Reid, Alastair, 1926-". Pinkville 02:47, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tlön language and Old Norse

Just an idle observation:

In another language of Tlön, "the basic unit is not the verb, but the monosyllabic adjective," which, in combinations of two or more, are noun-forming: "moon" becomes "airy-clear over dark-round" or "orange-faint-of-sky."
That [use of adjectives as the major part of speech] resembles some Old Norse kennings, don't you think? I doubt that has a place in the article, but it's an interesting thought. -- Beobach972 02:52, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Borges read Old English, and I believe Old Norse... Interesting. Pinkville 03:22, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation link

The one in the article seems dead - here's one which works [2] but I don't know if it's the same translation. Haukur 11:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

The article uses the word "Mlejnas" for Tlön's partner-world in Uqbaran mythology. The version I have (Collected Fictions, translated by Andrew Hurley, cop. Penguin Putnam Inc. 1998) uses "Mle'khnas". Which is the proper spelling? Noaqiyeum 02:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation and citation

I see that

In another language of Tlön, "the basic unit is not the verb, but the monosyllabic adjective," which, in combinations of two or more, are noun-forming: "moon" becomes "airy-clear over dark-round" or "orange-faint-of-sky."

was replaced by

In another language of Tlön, "the basic unit is not the verb, but the monosyllabic adjective," which, in combinations of two or more, are noun-forming: "moon" becomes "round airy-light on dark" or "pale-orange-of-the-sky."[1]

Arguably, it's just as good a translation of the Spanish, but I don't believe that it comes from the cited source. There are several published translations of "Tlön…" floating around, and I suspect that someone chose a different translation without changing the citation. - Jmabel | Talk 17:43, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Sounds of Uqbar "sounds like chopin played badly"

I found this sound in another region of Tlön (Urkh, Jectbus u Klang). I think it can be interesting to hear how music sounds, when when it's subjectivity is detracted (c.f. language). Mr. Bogres (Urkh, 1957) took a well known, subject-based, piece of music ("Raindrop"-Prelude Chopin op. 28 no. 15 Db-Major) and demonstrated this process.

Bernhard Schleiser, Hamburg - Germany —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.144.61.175 (talk) 05:42, August 29, 2007 (UTC)


Today I reinserted the link to the "subject-retracted" version of the Chopin-Prelude. Waiting for discussion: Bernhard Schleiser —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.144.65.151 (talk) 10:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:External links for our policy on external links. I still see no relevance for this item. Except for the title of the musical piece, which is a reference to Borges, I see no connection with the story this article is about. Other editors, please speak up if you have an opinion on including this link. EdJohnston (talk) 16:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I can see adding the link, with context, to the article section titled Inspiration for real world projects, though it's of borderline notability at best. I don't see it as appropriate to External links. Pinkville (talk) 19:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. Do you have any suggestions as to how we should check out its notability? Ask for third-party sources commenting on the music? EdJohnston (talk) 19:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I have deleted it per WP:EL. (If we'd let any kid make an MP3 on his computer, name it after something famous, and post it on the related Wikipedia article – we'd be inundated.) The first step criterion for notability is that the author of a derivative/inspired work should be notable enough to have his own Wikipedia article first (and survive an AFD). And that's just the first step: if Bart Simpson tagged "Tlön" on his school, that would surely warrant an explanation at the Simpson's episode article (encyclopedic annotation of a reference), but not a converse mention of the Simpsons episode in the Tlön article (trivia). — Komusou talk @ 20:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Pinkville (talk) 20:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm really astonished about your reaction! What is the link to this piece of music? Let us call it an poetic experiment about the relation between fiction and reality (c.f. Borges). It is a similar thing with the relation between "hlör u fang axaxaxas mlö", "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned" and " " (insert the rising moon - as external link? would this link be excepted?). I think it wouldn't be so bad for Borges, Tlön, Wikipedia and also Bart Simpson himself (!?) if Bart Simpson would "tag(ged) "Tlön" on his school". The way how the relation between fiction and reality is handled is the way how men are acting with themself and their world. I'm sure that this is one of the lessons of the reading of Borges. So: What is to be done? - Bernhard Schleiser —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.144.87.134 (talk) 07:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Philosophical Themes

The author of this article asserts that,

This story is not the only place where Borges engages with Berkeleian idealism and with the related 20th century philosophy of phenomenology. Phenomenology privileges psychical phenomena over physical phenomena and "brackets off" objective reality as unknowable.

I would tend to differentiate far more strongly between Berkeley's idealism and phenomenology, and I believe that to describe the latter as a "related" philosophy is misleading, since phenomenology is not derived either in whole or in part from Berkeley's thought but from Husserl, Brentano, and so on in its transcendental form, and from Heidegger in its existential and hermeneutic form. Also I would suggest that characterising phenomenology as privileging psychical phenomena over physical phenomena is also misleading, since phenomenology does not draw the abstract psychological distinctions implied, dealing rather with direct intuitions of phenomena as they appear in the life-world. As such, I think phenomenology has been wrongly attributed here as something very idealistic and abstract, when it is in fact an extremely existential and worldly approach. Phenomenology only brackets objective reality because it is a purely descriptive discipline, not a prescriptive or explanatory discipline; as there is no intention of giving accounts as to 'why' phenomena appear, only 'in what way' or 'as what', it has no need of a criteria of objectivity. Also, it should be noted, that Phenomenology names a varied collection of different phenomenological approaches, and that not all of them, or even the majority, would consider objective reality as unknowable.

In summary: Phenomenology is very much distinct from Berkeley's idealism, has altogether a different basis, and should not appear so proximately related to his name.Lethal humour (talk) 20:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Numbers

Borges also mentions in passing the duodecimal system (as well as others), but never elaborates on the fact that this is inherently a refutation of the changeability of things due to nomenclature - a number may be renamed under a different counting schema, but the underlying value will always remain the same.

Would the same value expressed through different numbers not simply make the value a hrön? An entity called into existence through a (possibly misunderstood, hence the shift in counting systems becomes possible) belief in its existence or the shadow of the memory of its existence? As per Borges,

... la operación de contar modifica las cantidades y las convierte de indefinidas en definidas. El hecho de que varios individuos que cuentan una misma cantidad logran un resultado igual, es para los psicólogos un ejemplo de asociación de ideas o de buen ejercicio de la memoria.

Thus, to a Tlönite, decimal 12 and duodecimal 10 are not really the same; one (ultimately both) only exists because it is expected or willed to exist. Their consequences (as far as "consequences" exist on Tlön) are the same; the same entity they are not. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 15:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Speculation on the origin of Tlön is unsourced

The section Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius#Real and fictional places now suggests that Tlön could have come from a Polish word. I'd argue that this speculation, as well as the Berber one, should be removed, since no published source has offered this connection. WP:NOR. EdJohnston (talk) 16:26, 4 May 2008 (UTC)