Talk:Tithe

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Assessment comments The following comments were left by the assessors: (edit · refresh) Hello: A section on modern Christian tithing practices is fine, but it was of course a tax in the Middle Ages. I would suggest a disambiguation page so that the Christians can concentrate on modern practices, and the extensive discussion of tithing in the Middle Ages--associated with land taxes--can develop separately. There are many "politically intense" historical issues such as for example the requirement that Catholics in Ireland pay for the maintenance of the Church of England. As for myself, what I would really like to do is move the discussion of "tithing" as it relates to Anglo Norman practice and see a disambiguation page. It would be fine for the modern Christian practices to be first listed but the religious taxes of the Middle Ages should go #2 and my own small paragraph should go #3, and I would suggest that it be entered as "Tithing (Judicial)" on its own page. Something like this: Tithing (modern Christian practices) Tithing (taxation in the Middle Ages) Tithing (juridical sense) This is a classic situation of one word having multiple meanings and a disambiguation would be helpful. I tried to figure it out tonight but couldn't get through it. Both "Tithing" and "tithe" should redirect to the disambiguation page and take it from there.

Contents 1 Jacob's vow to tithe 2 Cut the Melchizedek episode? 3 More on Tithe vs. Taxes 4 Tithe vs. Taxes 5 Extern Links 6 Tithes in European countries? 7 LDS Tithing 8 NPOV and Cleanup 9 Re: NPOV and Cleanup 10 Bible version 11 Ireland 12 Tithing in the Hebrew Bible 13 Colgate and Thithing 13.1 Question from Vitor Madeira 14 The God of Yesterday's Tithe Still the Same Today? 15 Article or sermon?

[edit] Jacob's vow to tithe

There's another reference to Old Testament tithing that would be good to cite:

Gen. 28:20 And David vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

Gen. 28:21 So that I come again to my father’s house in peace--then shall the LORD be my God,

Gen. 28:22 And this rock, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house; and of all that you shall give me, I will surely give the tenth to you.

p.

[edit] Cut the Melchizedek episode?

This long historical background on Melchizedek in the middle of the Tithe page seems inappropriate. I'm not sure who originally created this section, but if they're watching this page, I hope they'll voluntarily reduce it and/or move it to the Melchizedek page. Most of the information is already included on the Melchizedek wiki page, and a simple link to it should suffice. The other information regarding Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is appropriate and should remain here. I've only been using Wikipedia for a few days, so I'm not sure how this suggestion will be taken, or if it will even be noticed. Funhistory 19:08, 7 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree. After reading the episode I don't see how it figures into the concept of tithing directly. (I'm changing my tune from an earlier posting after having read the episode more carefully.) billlund 13:05, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

The anonymous author of this section added something similar to the article in "Melchizdek," which in the mean time has been deleted. Further, the salient points seem to be covered by other sections of the whole article, with more substantiation. I deleted this section as being redundant. billlund 22:46, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] More on Tithe vs. Taxes

I want to thank DJ Clayworth and Frecklefoot for their help in tidying up my contribution. I had wanted to put the two NT quotes (Matt 23:23 and Lk 11:42) in two columns opposite each other, but I couldn't get it to work -- it it even possible in Wikipedia??? Assistance and advice is always welcome. Regarding the external links: I just left what the original contributor had written, eg. England and Ireland, and his links. I didn't feel comfortable just whacking them. I didn't check them out, but I share your view that if they are too obviously slanted, they probably should be cut out entirely. Were it my article alone, I never would have included them. About the Taxes: in Mesopotamia, they were simply that, "Taxes." My argument in the text is that, set against voluntary contributions, "taxes" makes good sense. I know they went to support the Levites, which is different from the situation in Abraham's homeland. In the original Mesopotamian -- taxes. In the Hebrew situation -- O.K. something like tax-like. Thanks again. 217.88.116.139 18:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)Chuck Eypper217.88.116.139 18:19, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC) Bear in mind that the temples throughout the ancient Near East could levy taxes as well as the central government!

[edit] Tithe vs. Taxes

I should point out, tithes were not taxes but rather they were tax-like. In certain crucial respects they do not qualify as taxes - mainly, from being too arms length from governments. Even so, they still affected payers the same way, so correcting this technical point needs to respect the spirit as well as the letter. I'll leave it a while. PML.

---

[edit] Extern Links

I just started looking at some of the external links. They were all dumped in at once by an anonymous user (24.236.198.191) and all seem to be anti-tithing. While everyone is entitled to their views, I don't think just giving out anti-views is a good approach to NPOV. Sorry I didn't have the time to check them all out, but can someone please look at them and do some, er, trimming? At the very least, if someone has some pro-tithing links, please add them! That way we could have two sections in the links, clearly marked as "Pro" and "Anti" (or "Con"). Thanks! —Frecklefoot 22:31, 29 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This thread is quite old but all of the links in this section are very much opposed to the practice of tithing. Although it may be useful to include POV links in an article in an attempt to show the source of controversy, it seems like we are unbalanced here. I can add a link to the LDS Church teachings on tithing, since it is practiced, but that can cause its own problems. Anyone care? If not, I think we should just delete the links. billlund 02:54, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

Removed dead links. --Jimbabwean 22:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tithes in European countries?

At least here in Finland Evangelical-lutheran church collects (governmental tax office does this) one percent (not ten percent) from income of members of the church. Here is also other christian churches... So it would be interesting to know about tithes in other European countries, is it really collected somewhere?

I'm going to move the paragraph on France down with the other paragraphs about official state collection of "tithes." I think we should also structure these entries as subentries to a section on government collection of religious offerings. billlund 12:56, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

Intro: "There are still European countries today that allow some churches to assess a mandatory tithe which is enforced by law.". Mandatory? Which countries? By the discriptions of individual countries, that's not the idea I get.

[edit] LDS Tithing

Members of the LDS Church (or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) are required to pay tithing. Could somebody please put some reference to this on the page on tithes?

Members of the LDS Church are not "required" to pay a tithing, but it is a commandment from God and an expectation of the church. Paying a tithe is also a requirement to participate in the LDS temple, specifically, to receive a temple recommend so that the member can participate in the ordinances of the temple. (There are copious Wikipedia entries on all of this.)

Personally, I don't think that an entry regarding this for the LDS Church is appropriate in this article since no other denomination is specifically mentioned. I also think that bringing in specific practices of denominations would make the article contentious and unwieldy. Let's not do that. billlund 12:52, May 22, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV and Cleanup

This article is currently quite POV in certain sections and reads like a college essay on tithing instead of an unbiased encyclopedia article. I don't have time to elaborate further or point out specific instances right now, but a brief readthrough of the article should be enough to convince nearly anyone that work needs to be done here. - Jersyko talk 03:54, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

OK, I went through the article and cut out everything that smelled of POV or original research. I'm certain that this article could be expanded significantly, and I might have cut some information that could be reworded and re-inserted as well as failed to cut some info that shouldn't be in the article. I, however, learned more about tithing from reading this article than I've ever known, so I'm certainly not the person to do any more work on it. - Jersyko talk 03:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: NPOV and Cleanup

Right.... If it's LDS, its okay, but if its Catholic, its a biased POV... You even got rid of the external links.

--El Caudillo 17:24, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Please remember to assume good faith. I'm not prejudiced against either Mormons or Catholics. Your edits, or at least some of them (which i indicated in my edit summary), were POV. You deleted passages without explanation and added POV phrases like "Abraham], patriarch and father of nations" (implying that Abraham was, in fact, both of those things) and "those who serve the altar should live by the altar." Now, you've added what amounts to a sermon, beginning with "Jews, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians who tithe, understand that no man may outdo God in the act of charity." I will be the first to admit that this article needs work (look at the edit history, it used to be an anti-tithing rant before i cut most of it), but the work needs to be scholarly, neutral point of view, and not focus too heavily on one Christian denomination.

I would, however, be perfectly fine with you replacing the scripture references to the LDS site with references to another, reputable translation. - Jersyko talk 21:27, August 3, 2005 (UTC)

What do you expect? Tithing is a religious subject, particularly an Abrahamic religious subject. (Eastern religions do not have this.) If it were secular, it would be 'taxation.'

Actually, it's odd that while this article speaks of what tithing is, it doesn't touch on WHY tithing is done or the reasons for doing so.

Now, "patriarch and father of nations" is a title, used and accepted by Jews, Christians, and Muslims AKA. the "Abrahamic Faiths" that trace their lineage directly through him.

Catholics do not believe that Jesus gave a specific commandment to tithe, but understand the logic of keeping religious matters out of the control of the state. Hence, "those who serve the altar should live by the altar." It's a statement of logic. POV... maybe, but what do you suggest to explain Catholic viewpoints. Lumping us in with the viewpoints of other faiths regardless of differences does no service to any religion at all. Equality does not mean 'same-ness.'

Now, admittedly, most of the other OT Bible passages can be junked since they simply show instances of tithing rather than any important information.

The two that should be kept in (and cited) are

1. Numbers 18:8-32 wherein God institutes the tithe for the first time, and

2. Malachias 3:8-12 wherein God explains the benefits of tithing.

--El Caudillo 02:25, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

• I started to respond to your post, but thought better of it when i had this idea - maybe we should have a different section in the article for different faiths? If you like that idea, since it seems you know quite a bit about tithing from a Catholic perspective, I encourage you to write that section of the article. Of course, remember to preface what you say with "according to ____, God commands" or the like instead of merely "God commands" or any other statement that could be construed as POV. I'm certain there are wikipedians out there that know about tithing from a Jewish, Protestant, Mormon, and Muslim perspective, and I invite them to write sections of this article on those and other faiths. I think this can solve some of the article's problems, I hope you agree. - Jersyko talk 03:01, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good.

Let's do it.

--El Caudillo 08:32, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bible version

The article states that the quotes are KJV, but if I understand correctly, the Mormons use their own translation that was extensivelty edited by (or through?) J. Smith (and I'm not talking about the Book of Mormon, but rather the Old and New Testaments.) Would it be alright to point to some other KJV, or better still, RSV, or even better, NIV??? Codex Sinaiticus 21:40, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible is not used as the official version of the Bible by members of the LDS Church. Other factions do, but any links to the bible on the [1] website are links to the King James version. Read the wiki article for more info. Mrmcgibby 20:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

RSV okay for you guys?

Hmmmm... Protestants won't accept Douay-Rheims and Catholics won't accept King James.... Well... how about we stick to Revised Standard Verson? (Not NRSV.) It's the only modern Bible version universally accepted by Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox. Not sure about Jews, though...

Bible: Revised Standard Version

--El Caudillo 02:05, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

"universally accepted" is quite POV. No version of the bible is "universally accepted", when in fact the choice of bible translation is quite often a point of contention between groups. I would say that the best solution is to simply allow editors to link to whatever version they want to link to. Mrmcgibby 20:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ireland

The reference to Henry David Thoreau really doesn't belong here -- or anywhere else in this article. It explains the principle of conscientious objecting, but that isn't what the article is about even though it mentions such objections to tithing. Thoreau's objections were not to tithing and he did not make them in Ireland, so I suggest removing the reference.

• Yep, deleted. - Jersyko talk 21:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tithing in the Hebrew Bible

Seems to me that discussion of the Hebrew practice of tithing should mention Deuteronomy 14 and 26, which seem to indicate that the tithe was only given to the Levites every third year. I'm not a Hebrew Bible scholar, but it would be helpful to have some comment on this. Atterlep 18:22, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[Responce to above question: There are three tithes in the Bible. The first tithe went directly to the levites that lived in the local community. The second tithe (collected on years 1, 2, 4, 5 of the sabbatical cycle) was taken to Jerusalem to be eaten there. The third tithe (collected years 3 and 6 of the sabbatical cycle) was given to the poor and widows who lived in the local community.

These practices are clearly explained and defined in the Talmud in various tractates. The main tractates would be tractate Ma'aseroth and tractate Ma'aser Sheni. - Brak]

There has been some discussion about a section where the tithing practices of different religions, denominations and sects would be described. The section 'Tithing in the Bible' mentions the tithing beliefs of two groups

1. • Word of Faith
   • LDS

Should these two references be moved to a new section 'Tithing Practices' or 'Current Tithing Beliefs and Practices'?

• Also, the statement 'Despite the widespread preaching of the tithe in many christian churches, very few church members actually consistently contribute 10% or more' is not documented. It should be backed up with link to statistics or removed.
• Also the statement, '(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints being one possible exception, as members are not considered as being in full fellowship if they do not pay an honest or full tithe)' is not true and I am going to change it. Any suggestions? Hoquiam72 03:30, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I think that the tithe is used to maintain the institution of the church and control the flock through fear.

[edit] Colgate and Thithing

[edit] Question from Vitor Madeira

Hi! I've heard several times on my church that Mr. Colgate (the founder of Colgate-Palmolive) gave big ammounts of tithes to his church, and that at his elder ages, near his death, he even gave 90% of his earnings instead of just 10% as the Bible states.

I've heard some times my pastor saying this in order to give examples of famous thithers, but I just can't confirm if this is true. Is this a hoax or is it true?

Could please someone help me on this matter?

Thank you very much. Vitor Madeira 16:33, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The God of Yesterday's Tithe Still the Same Today?

Of course God never changes. But no matter which side you take about tithe and offerings - the form, function, or purpose of the tithe has changed in some way. Can both sides be right about how the tithe has changed, or has one side changed/not changed God's laws to fit what they want? It seems there is a majority of agreement that the tithe changed after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. So, what differentiating factors do you believe effected our function of the tithe today - the law, His chosen people, his character, our needs, culture, His priesthood, government? Jbbaab44 21:11, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article or sermon?

Overall, a good article. However, it reads more like a Christian sermon or dissertation on the subject of tithing rather than an encyclopedia article. You should stick strictly to the subject of tithing in history and how it has been applied by the church in history, and refrain from Biblical interpretation. Your statement that, "It is therefore a much better interpretation, both similar to circumcision and the observation of the Sabbath, that the practise of tithing (that is compulsory giving of 10% of ones income) is no longer applicable to the New Testament church. Instead church members are encouraged "to give as the Lord has prospered (them)” [I Corinthians 16:2], and "every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver” [II Corinthians 9:7]." is definitely Biblical exegesis and is not suitable for an encyclopedia article, IMO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevin Scott Marcus (talk • contribs) 20:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)