Talk:Tirant lo Blanc

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[edit] Roger de Flor

Why does it say http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Company "De Flor was inspired to form the company by the mediaeval tale of Tirant lo Blanc," if your article says it was inspired by him? Where does the tale originate?

[edit] Publication

  • What is the source of the exact publication date? I own a copy of the book, the Rosenthal translation, and it only says that the book was published in 1490. Can someone please check this out?
  • The second author of the book, Martí Joan De Galba, was previously not mentioned in this article, and does not appear on any pages linked to this article (I know because I corrected all the redirects just now.) Can someone please make the necessary edits where they see fit?
  • I added the category that says Spanish literature; I know it's not in Spanish, but since the work is from the area that is modern-day Spain, perhaps the category ought to stay, unless someone has notable objections to it. -- Simonides 08:38, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
It should be under Catalan literature. Doesn't that category exist? If it doesn't, then Spanish literature will do for now. — Chameleon My page/My talk 08:46, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
There is a category for Catalan language, but not literature. Anyway, I have changed the year of pub. because several sites confirm it is 1490; 1468 was only the year in which Martorell passed away. -- Simonides 08:51, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Catalan or Valencian?

I think some mistakes must be corrected. "Tirant lo blanch" was never written in catalan language, but in valentian language. You can verify this in the firsts pages of the book, in the dedication to the Prince Ferdinand of Portugal, where it says: "... e pus verdaderament ignorancia me atrevire expondre no solament de lengua anglesa en portoguesa, mas encara de porqoguesa en vulgar valenciana, per ço que la nacio d'on yo so natural se puxa alegrar e molt ajudar ...". Please follow this link: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Tirant.jpg --Wikiküntscher 23:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Valencià is a dialectal variant of Catalan which he spoke.Rvalles 01:49, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)
Valencià is an independent language even though the long lasting politic and echonomic efforts and interferences of catalonians to subordinate it to Catalan. Valencia was already a kingdon very long before Catalonia began to exist as an unity. And Valencians never have taken seriously the affirmations of catalans about language, because it has been always so clear... until recent times, when the convoluted arguments and theses of the catalans seem to have gained resonance and success outside from Spain, (and surprisingly inside Spain, also), and it is becoming a threat to valentian identity. Catalans have demonstrated again what scientifics know since very long ago, thas is: A language is a dialect with an army.--Wikiküntscher 20:44, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Not really. Valencià has always just been a name for the same language while used the valencian way. Some political groups now want to artificially make it a different language for hideous purposes. Sadly, it's only politics, since the experts in languages, from valencia and from the rest of the world, seem to agree about valencian and catalan being the same language.Rvalles 00:36, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
Tirant lo blanch, Prologue
Tirant lo blanch, Prologue

No. You're wrong. Valencià has been a language since the XIII century, as it can be proved from multiple texts from theese ages, and surprisingly, the word "catalan" apears in none.

See the image to the right. It is one of the first pages of the Tirant, the valentian edition of 1.491. I have marked with green the segments where it is said clearly by Joanot Martorell that he writes his novel in Valentian. The text has not been manipulated. It was exactly written as it appears. The first column belongs to the prologue. Yo can read it also in the complete on-line text whose link you can find at the end of this article, (not here, in the discussion). About the 2nd column, I cannot find the text in the prologue. I think it must belong to the epilogue, but I have not verified it yet.

You can find more interesting testimonies of the existence of the Valentian Language along centuries here, http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usuario:Val/val#nomenclatura I say you again: The texts have not been manipulated. The catalan point of view, comes from it's strong nationalism. But in the process of afirmation of their "differential identity", catalans borrowed the valentian language and literature.

--Wikiküntscher 21:50, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Valencians and Catalans have always borrowed from each other, and the rest of Spain. What is clear is that the common language of Catalonia and Valencia originated in Catalonia and spread southwest along the coast as Christians conquered lands from the Moors. For this reason, the language of the Valencians is Catalan, in the same way that the language of the Andalusians is Castilian. In each of these cases, a number of dialectal variations have sprung up, but without obscuring the unity of each language. Unlike the Andalusians, Majorcans, Roussillonnais and others, Valencians have long chosen to apply a local name to the language, probably due to local literary output in mediaeval times and Spanish-nationalist, anti-Catalan politics in recent times. This tendency is to be respected, but not necessarily followed, given that it is entirely consistent with linguistic fact to say that Tirant lo Blanch is written in Catalan. It cuts both ways: when I speak their language, Valencians say I am speaking Valencian. However, I learnt this language in Barcelona. Chameleon 00:31, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No. You are wrong, and too influenced by catalan nationalistic doctrine.

1.- It is not so clear wether the valencian origined from catalan as the catalans pretend. There are many proofs agaist it. They are simmialr, of course, but Portuguese and Galician are simmilar too, and they are regarded as differentiate languages. Each one has it's own academy and o in separate ways, because they respect each other.The romance language thas was spoken in Valencia during the XIV century was very different from the romance language spoken in Barcelona, and the differences have growed with time.

2.- In case the valencian was a dialect of catalan it has all the rights to be considerated as an independent language. It has followed a very different evolution respect to catalan along 7 centuries. Valentian is much more hispanic, and catalan is much more gallic.

3.- Linguists say "we all speak in dialect", and "a language is a dialect with an army". The pretended "unity" of catalan language is artificial, and respond to political interests, (from Catalonia, of course). I showed you a page of the "Tirant" in wich it is clear that the language is "valencian", and you insist in calling it "Catalán". Why?. Does it dismount your paradigm? In that case, follow your investigation, you will fin things that will make you change your opinion.

4.- You must be respective with the languages recogniced by the European Comunity, (and Valenciano is one of them), and with the Spanis constitution, and with the Estatuto de Autonomía Valenciano. Please be correct. An enciclopaedia must be correct, and you are not being so. At the present in all the definitions about catalan and Valencian subjects the wikipedia in english is being non-enciclopedic. In fact it is being very subjective, partial and incorrect.

5.- I suggest you to visit the german wikipedia. It is not completely correct in these subjetcs, but it is very much more correct than yours.

--Wikiküntscher 11:12, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  1. It is clear that the language known variously as valencià, català, catalanesc, romanç, llemosí, etc was spoken in Catalonia when Valencians still spoke Arabic. Variations within modern Valencian largely derive from the origins of the settlers from the Corona de Aragón: the eastern parts of the kingdom were mostly settled by people from the Lleida region and the western parts were mostly settled by people from Aragon, who spoke Aragonese and then Castilian.
  2. Origins aside, it is also clear that the language spoken nowadays across the territories of the Corona de Aragón is a single language. Indeed, some might argue that Catalan and Occitan are just two very different dialects of one great Hispano-Gallic language, with Valencian, Majorcan, Roussillonnais, Provençal etc as subdialects of these. Near my house in Languedoc (I commute between there and Valencia — long story) there is a town called Aigues-Mortes. I think the meaning of this toponym is transparent from Provence to El Cartxe.
  3. That page from Tirant shows nothing but the fact that Martorell called his language valencià. This does not prove that this same language was not spoken in Barcelona. Indeed it was, under various names. The unity of the language is agreed upon by all linguists.
  4. The European Union is an administrative and not linguistic authority. The fact that they have been pressured into recognising Valencian separately from Catalan does not change linguistic and historical reality.
  5. My German is rusty. If that page has been hijacked by anti-Catalans, it needs to be corrected.

Chameleon 12:00, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Chameleon, your paranoia is ridiculous. You go so far as to assert that the denomination "valencian" is some concoction of rabid anti-Catalan Spanish nationalists: it is you, a Brit formed in Barcelona, who does not know, understand or respect the historical realities of the Valencian region and its language. While it is true (from my point of view) that there is a common (though extremely polymorphic) language to most of the territory formerly belonging to the Aragonese Crown, your political intentions are CLEAR AND UNMISTAKABLE because you refuse to give legitimacy to the Valencian denomination, instead seeing it as an inferior dialect of Catalan. The reality, which you, either because of your alien status or inherent narrow mindedness refuse to understand, is that Catalan, Valencian, Majorcan and Menorcan are all PARTS of the same Language, rather than the Valencian, Majorcan and Menorcan being parts of Catalan. Principles of equality and equity. You would rather have some sweeping generalisation (a Catalonian one) rather than respect the truth, perhaps out of some morbid and frivolous desire to polemicise where you have no business. The theory of troops from Lleida installing themselves in Valencia and thus creating a dialect is as credible as concluding that you Brits speak French, but badly, because of the Viking troops from France that invaded your rainy islands. It is true that those from Lleida speak similarly to the Northern Valencians, but that is quite beyond your comprehension and you only repeat out of knee-jerk, parrot-automaton reactions. It is clear however that you will not make amends to your mistakes because I have been watching you, and this has become more of a matter of pride than truth for you. Tirant Lo Blanc was written in Valencian--who are you, a nobody, an obsessive-compulsive control freak troll on Wikipedia, to contradict Joanot Martorell on what language he wrote in? In a local, Spanish basis Valencian is the valid denomination. Internationally, to differentiate the language from Castilian Spanish, French, Italian etc--it would be valid to use the umbrella denomination of Valencian-Catalan as overall literature. If you had any SENY you would see this, but you seem to have only picked up the mind-limiting aspects of Barcelona rather than its positive attributes. I will be happy to discuss things with you once you begin to adopt neutral perspectives rather than act as an agent for the IEC.

Please read Wikipedia:No personal attacks.
Xe, els teus arguments són només «homes de palla» i demostres molt poc seny. Per exemple, dius que jo dic que la denominació «valencià» és una invenció de anti-catalans. No és veritat. Ací es diu que es parla valencià, i em pareix molt bé. Només em sembla il·lògic quand es diu que ací no es parla català, perquè a tots els lingüistes ens sembla clar que es tracta d'una sola llengua amb diversos noms. Tu dius que el valencià, el balear i el català són parts d'un mateix idioma. Quasi tens raó. Però les parts (és a dir els dialectes i els subdialectes) d'esta gran llengua no corresponen a l'ús dels noms «valencià», «català», etc. Sovint, la gent diu que es diu X en català i Y en valencià, però realment això vol dir que es diu X en Barcelona i Y en València, encara que els lleidatans diuen Y també i els d'Alacant diuen Z. Doncs, el valencià no existix com penses tu. És sols un nom per a llengua catalana-valenciana-balear parlada en esta comunitat autònoma. Com nom, té molta història, i això em pareix molt bé. Martorell el fa servir, i els valencians de hui el fan servir. Este fet no canvia la realitat lingüística. Jo dic molt sovint «valencià» sense que voler dir que no és català. És a dir que jo dic el mateix que Martorell; és donc possible que ell pensara el mateix que jo! No pots posar les teues opinions en la seua boca.
Proposes «valencià-català» («valencià» primer, és clar!) com nom. Bé, així no intentes dir que són dues llengües diferents. Però has oblidat el mallorquí, el menorquí, el eivissenc i l'alguerès. Tot i que oblidem estes paraules, no et pareix que el nom és molt llarg i molt poc pràctic? Podríem dir «anglès-americà-australià» també, però poca gent creurà que és una bona idea. Jo propose que es diga «anglès» i «català». Els americans poden dir les seues paraules, però sense pensar que no parlen anglès; si els és molt molt important, poden dir «I speak American» però només si comprenen que «I speak English» també és correcte i és el que diran els lingüistes. Passa la mateix cosa ací en València. Els valencians poden dir les seues paraules, però sense pensar que no parlen català; si els és molt molt important, poden dir «jo parle valencià» però només si comprenen que «jo parle català» (en este cas es podria dir «jo parlo català» també) també és correcte i és el que diran els lingüistes
Està molt bé que faces l'analogia amb la invasió normanda d'anglaterra. És un cas en el qual és veritat que aquell fet històric canvià completament la llengua anglesa i que per això ara parlem una combinació de anglosaxó (anglès àntic) i francès normand. Es podria dir que parlem «franco-anglès», però després de tots estes segles, hem oblidat que la mitat de la llengua és gavatxo i la nostra llengua es diu només «anglès». En el cas del país valencià, és més extrem. El català va substituïr gairebé completament l'àrab i el mossàrab de la regió (¿això et pareix molt valencià: Mio sîdî ïbrâhîm / yâ tú uemme dolge / fente mib / de nohte / in non si non keris / irey-me tib / gari-me a ob / legar-te?). El francès no va fer la mateixa cosa en Anglaterra.
Si vols parlar de la inferioritat del dialecte del català que es parla ací respecte al dialecte del català que es parla a Barcelona, bé... em pareix que no és una qüestió molt important. Jo crec que és millor tenir un estàndard per cada llengua, i que l'estàndard representat per normes com les de Castelló etc no està malament. De la mateixa manera, jo defense les normes que existixen en anglès, sense que este fet siga un problema entre la meua xicota australiana i jo. Mos podem riure de les diferències.
I don't know why you can't just chill out too. You should also log in and sign your comments. — Chameleon 16:16, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong

  1. Completely wrong your apreciations about the catalan spoken in Catalonia and the Arabic spoken in Valencia. In fact, Catalonia did not exist by that time. And there are strong proofs that in the Valencia under the muslim rule our romance was spoken widely. In any case, if the language was brought here by the conquerors, they were mainly from Aragon, and in minor quantities from Navarra, Barcelona, Urgel, Castilian and south of France. This population mixed with the valencian population wich did not abandone Valencia, (The whole population stayed here). Valencia became a mixed race city. Please, study a little more before saying your asseverations.
  1. This opinion yours that all is the same language is not a scientific opinion, but a political one. And the fact that you live in Langedoc explains everything. You are not neutral. Each people in the world has the right to decide the name of their language. We, in Valencia call it Lengua Valenciana since 7 centuries ago. Why in the hell must we now accept the imperialistic definitions from catalans? Because they have more money? Because they began earlier to shout and to put their name before all the world? This is a nonsense.
  1. THe unity of the language is evidently not a consensus between linguists. Where have you taken it from?
  1. You despise the vigent conception of the Valenciano in all the world.

It is clear that YOU ARE NOT NEUTRAL. YOU HAVE POLITICAL AFFINITIES THAT MAKE YOU NOT OBJETIVE, AND YOU PRETEND THEM TO BE "SCIENTIFIC". AND YOUR ASSEVERATIONS ARE BECOMING EVEN OFFENSIVE. YOU ARE NOT A VALID INTERLOCUTOR. Yo even calumniate others. The page from the german Wikipedia has been made by germans. Does your nationalism arrive to the extreme to acussate them of anti-catalans? I cannot believe so much .... (I cannot find the words).--Wikiküntscher 23:10, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wikikuntscher, you are saying a lot, but without showing proofs. You said There are strong proofs that Valencia under the muslim rule well, by all means, show them!!! Secondly, the opinion that catalan and valentian are the same language is actually scientifical, and not political. It was the ALV that said that both are the same language, but it was the Generalitat Valenciana who insisits on them being different; in other words, it was the scientists who said it they're both the same, it was politicians who said they are not. Thirdly, what is the "vigent" (sic) conception of the valenciano? And by "vigent" I assume you mean "current" or perhaps "actual". I've met countless of residents of valencia and whose first language is the "valentian" who have no problems at all accepting the denomination "catalan". In fact, there are hundreds of collaborators at the catalan wikipedia working alongside catalan collaborators and unless those very little and sublte differences between the 2 varieties (valentian/catalan) arise (differences that are no greater than those between Argentinian Spanish and Castilian Spanish) you cannot tell which article was written by a speaker of valencia and which by a catalan. Fifthly, if in your argumentation you only resort to personal attacks and swearing, then by no means you can be taken seriously. A man that cannot control himself and insults others instead of using wise argumentation, does not deserve to be taken seriously.

[edit] Stub removed

Joanot, in removing the "Catalonia stub" from the article all you are doing is making it far harder for any editors to find this article to expand. In other words, your action is working against Wikipedia's ability to properly promote or present reasonable articles about the issue. This harms Wikipedia and - indirectly - disfavours Land of Valencia. If you think that a stub could be used for Land of Valencia, feel free to propose one at WP:WSS/P.

Besides, your deletion of Catalonia-stub is quite a non-sense. The article says "Tirant lo Blanc is one of the most important books of Catalan literature". It's obious that there is some kind of relationship between "Catalan literature" and "Catalonia". Of course, if a "catalan literature stub" or a "catalan language stub" were created, this stub reference should be moved from generic Catalonia to one of these ones.

You can propose the creation of such stubs. But removing the link before is an act of vandalism. --Joan sense nick 17:36, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, you're on truth. But Catalan language is related to Catalonia as to Land of Valencia too. So I think that the best choice is leave there with both stubs, until there is a more especific one almost. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:15, 26 October 2005 (UTC)


Jsut some information for cultural purposes: Where does the word "Catalán" comes from: It is French. It means the "inhabitant of the Castles" or "Chastlains" or "castlans" (exactly the same than "Castilian"). When the word "Catalán" appears for the first time. In 1115, mentioned by an italian cronist. When Catalonia became really independent?. By the Treaty of Corbeil, in 1248 when the French Monarchie gave up his rights on the Marca Hispanica castles. Where was the idealised hero of Barcelona Wifredo el Vellosos born : in France, in Carcassone. Was Roger of Lauria, the "great catalonian hero" catalán. Not at all, he was born in Lauria (Italy) and served the King of Aragón. Were there Kings in Cataluña. No, never existed. Were there a Principado of Cataluña?. No, never. It is a Prince of Gerona, but never was Cataluña a Principado. Stop trying to be what you are not. You may be proud of some other things, but neither you have ever been a Kingdom, not a Principado, nor you have had a clasic literature in catalán. Catalán is a dialect steaming from latin, exactly the same than castillian, provenzal, italian or valenciano. The difffrence is that, while Valenciano had a dictionary (Liber Elegantiarum), clasic romans (Tirant lo Blanch), traslations of the Bible to Valenciano (Bonifacio Ferrer), etc.. (ALL THEM MENTIONING BLACK ON WHITE THAT THEY WROTE IN VALENCIANO LANGUAGE), the Catalans had nothing, and this is way the catalans desperately need to try to absorb the Valenciano, becuase in catalan there is nothing to show. However, culture is culture, and mixtifications are only for ignorants. Jose Sanchez


Jsut some information for cultural purposes: Where does the word "Catalán" comes from: It is French. It means the "inhabitant of the Castles" or "Chastlains" or "castlans" (exactly the same than "Castilian"). When the word "Catalán" appears for the first time. In 1115, mentioned by an italian cronist. When Catalonia became really independent?. By the Treaty of Corbeil, in 1248 when the French Monarchie gave up his rights on the Marca Hispanica castles. Where was the idealised hero of Barcelona Wifredo el Vellosos born : in France, in Carcassone. Was Roger of Lauria, the "great catalonian hero" catalán. Not at all, he was born in Lauria (Italy) and served the King of Aragón. Were there Kings in Cataluña. No, never existed. Were there a Principado of Cataluña?. No, never. It is a Prince of Gerona, but never was Cataluña a Principado. Stop trying to be what you are not. You may be proud of some other things, but neither you have ever been a Kingdom, not a Principado, nor you have had a clasic literature in catalán. Catalán is a dialect steaming from latin, exactly the same than castillian, provenzal, italian or valenciano. The difffrence is that, while Valenciano had a dictionary (Liber Elegantiarum), clasic romans (Tirant lo Blanch), traslations of the Bible to Valenciano (Bonifacio Ferrer), etc.. (ALL THEM MENTIONING BLACK ON WHITE THAT THEY WROTE IN VALENCIANO LANGUAGE), the Catalans had nothing, and this is way the catalans desperately need to try to absorb the Valenciano, becuase in catalan there is nothing to show. However, culture is culture, and mixtifications are only for ignorants. Jose Sanchez