Talk:Tiramisu

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Why should there be any mention of of its status as a food fad in austrailia? Two16

You must be new around here. This is Wikipedia, where everything is encyclopedic; rumors, fads, lame interpretations, anything goes.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move, sadly enough. —Nightstallion (?) 11:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Requested move

Tiramisu → Tiramisù – Proper spelling. Copied from the entry on the WP:RM page. --Fibonacci 06:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Maybe in Italian it's correct but not in English. LuiKhuntek 08:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I'm a "pro-diacritic" in general, but Tiramisu entered English without the accent. Duja 16:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Opppose, this has a clear English usage, being "tiramisu". 132.205.45.110 21:56, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per above. //MrD9 05:45, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support — the stress is on the final syllable. — Gareth Hughes 17:18, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Opppose: the name in English does not have an accent mark. Jonathunder 20:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Correct name. —Nightstallion (?) 11:38, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] Mascarpone cheese, or cream?

The article for some time has begun:

Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine, and cocoa.

In this edit, the sentence was changed to:

Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine, and cocoa.

I reverted. My problems with saying mascarpone cream instead of mascarpone cheese are:

  1. Neither this article nor mascarpone explain what the term mascarpone cream means. We do, on the other hand, link to the article which describes mascarpone as a cheese.
  2. Mascarpone cream contains many of the other ingredients, and they are used in the tiramisù only via the mascarpone cream. So if we use the term mascarpone cream in this sentence, I think it would more precisely read:
    Tiramisu is an Italian dessert typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, and cocoa.

I think it's better for the reader to list the primal ingredients they are likely to already be familiar with—i.e., "mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, sugar, marsala wine". Thoughts? --TreyHarris 16:06, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Mascarpone cream contains mascarpone cheese and whipping cream, this is what is used in tiramisu and many other italian desserts, not pure mascarpone cheese. Ask any pasty chef in the world. Your proposal would be like saying spaghetti and meatballs is typically made from flour, eggs, and meatballs. --NEMT 17:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not denying that tiramisù contains mascarpone cream—I make tiramisù, I know what's in it. But mascarpone cream is not just mascarpone and cream. Mascarpone cream contains mascarpone cheese, whipped cream (not just "whipping" cream), and zabaglione, which in turn contains marsala, eggs, and sugar.
"Your proposal would be like saying spaghetti and meatballs is typically made from flour, eggs, and meatballs." First off, it's not my "proposal"—this language has been stable in this article for almost five years. You're the one who wants to change it; you have the "proposal", not me. Secondly, the difference is that there's an article on "spaghetti", and "spaghetti" is a well-known term to the general English-speaking public. There's no article at mascarpone cream, and if you ask a random English speaker what it means, they're not going to be able to describe it.
I would say that if you'd like to write an article on mascarpone cream, I'd drop my objections to changing the sentence to #2 above. (But not #1—there's no reason to repeat eggs and sugar and Marsala.) But I'm not sure that mascarpone cream meets notability requirements for an article to itself (which is wrapped up in the whole reason I oppose this change). However, if you want to try creating a mascarpone cream article, go ahead. --TreyHarris 18:08, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
So why not have it say "...typically made from Lady Fingers, espresso coffee, mascarpone cream, and cocoa?" There isn't a pastry chef in the world who would respond to a customer asking the question "What's in Tiramisu besides the ladyfingers?" with "mascarpone cheese, eggs, cream, etc." he would just say "mascarpone cream." --NEMT 20:20, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Because this article isn't for an audience of pasty chefs (who would not only already know what mascarpone cream is, they'd know what tiramisù is, too). The audience is people who do not know, but want to know, what's in tiramisù. Telling them "ladyfingers and mascarpone cream" is not useful for that audience without defining mascarpone cream—if they know what mascarpone cream is, then they almost certainly know the most famous dish it is used in. --TreyHarris 22:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
Good point, but why stop there? Let's just be as clear as possible and say it's made out of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen... --NEMT 22:11, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
As someone who isn't a chef but has made tiramisu, and as someone who hasnt been involved in this, I'm glad it was left as "mascarpone cheese". Of course if anyone seriously thinks that saying cheese instead of cream is one step away from describing tiramisu on an atomic level, let them come forward now or forever stay silent on the issue. 59.167.164.197 15:41, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] That accent

If the decision was made to leave the page title as "tiramisu", a decision I agree with, by the way, why is "tiramisù" being used throughout the article?

Incidentally, to counter the arguments put by the people supporting leaving the accent on the English word, yes, the stress is certainly on the last syllable, and that means that an accent is necessary in Italian (otherwise the stress would be on the penultimate syllable), but English does not use accents to mark stressed syllables.

Furthermore, whereas tiramisù is the correct Italian name, English tends to drop accents when adopting and naturalising foreign words when they are not necessary to understanding. "Cafe" is widely seen instead of "café"; the diaereses formerly seen in "zoölogy" and "coördinate" have long since gone. It is helpful to write "résumé", however, to avoid confusion with the verb "resume". — Paul G 15:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

All accents now removed, except in the Italian usage of the word. — Paul G 15:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The intro

Quick question: does tiramisu really metaphorically mean "make me happy"? Or is the word you're looking for literally? Artiste-extraordinaire 05:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it literally means "pull me up". ("Pick-me-up", as in the article, is close to literal, though not quite, but it has the advantage of conveying the idea better as an English idiom.) --Trovatore 06:29, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Type(s) of rum?

Does the recipe call for spiced or unspiced rum? 24.131.138.87 12:46, 17 July 2007 (UTC)Soyu Ewww - just the thought of spiced rum in this makes me feel queasy :-) Stick with the normal stuff. FlagSteward 12:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dish history

I know it's very uncyclopedic, but I can assure you by personal experience that my mom made tiramisu at least since I can remember, that is the end of the Seventies... And since she's not a great inventor, I bet this wonderful masterpiec of our cuisine had at least some decades of history back then. Basil II 01:09, 2 November 2007 (CEST)

[edit] Move to Tiramisù?

Can we please move this article to the proper Italian spelling, since that's what we use in the lead? Alternatively we should use English spelling throughout. Thanks 83.67.217.254 (talk) 14:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marsala does not belong

Tiramisu has nothing to do with zabaglione. Time to get our references right please. 83.67.217.254 (talk) 14:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I can't do a citation

I'm fed up with wikipedia for the evening, I am unable to add my cite properly for the ingredients. Yanaghihara, Dawn. "Perfecting Tiramisù", December, 2007, pp. 20-21.