Talk:Tincture (heraldry)

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Contents

[edit] Rule of Tincture

Concerning this paragraph:

The rule of tincture has had an influence reaching far beyond heraldry. It has been imposed on flags, or perhaps it should be put, applied to the design of flags, so that the flag of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach was modified to conform to the rule.[26] The rule of tincture has also influenced World Wide Web design with respect to what colour font should be placed on what colour background. Almost all license plates and traffic signs, intentionally or unintentionally, follow it.

Is it really fair to say that the choice of font color on Web pages and the color of license plates and traffic signs all stem directly from the rule of tincture, or would it be more correct to say that these things all stem independently from the same kind of universal design sense about maximizing contrast? -- Skaraoke 01:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The "universal design sense about maximizing contrast" is the rule of tincture. --EncycloPetey 01:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
This is absolutely false. The rule of tincture is a technical rule, not a practical rule. Sable a lion rampant pean is a perfectly acceptable coat as far as the rule is concerned (furs being amphibious), though it is essentially invisible. --Daniel C. Boyer 18:49, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
What about rewriting the paragraph so it acknowledges some kind of indirect relationship between the Rule of Tincture and modern signs and license plates without asserting that they are direct descendants of the RoT (which seems to be untrue)? --Skaraoke 21:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
But it's not untrue. Modern highway signs, at least, were developed with a conscious knowledge of the rule of tincture. --Daniel C. Boyer 14:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps, but only with regard to the general rules of contrast as discussed above. I doubt that everyone who designed road signs had a working knowledge of heraldry in general and the rule of tincture in particular. -- B.D.Mills  (T, C) 01:07, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

By the way, it's customary to add to the bottom of Talk pages, to make archiving easier. —Tamfang 06:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questions from 2003-2004

Should there even be a category "later tinctures"? Some of these are quite old. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:35, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I wonder about the illustration for ermine spots. It gives the impression that there are but two forms (or close to this) when really there is an unbelievable variety of forms of representation. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:16, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

If Fox-Davies The Art of Heraldry is out of copyright, I could scan a pageful of ermine spots (and another page of fleurs-de-lis). — Tamfang 03:03, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure that it's out of copyright yet, but there isn't a need to sacn them. I'm currently creating a set of images for the ermine (heraldry) page including the four basic named ermine variants, as well as a non-standard one (gules ermined argent) for illustrative purposes. --EncycloPetey 05:11, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm not talking about ermines, erminois, pean and erminites (as far as I'm concerned they can all be swept under the rug) – I'm talking about fig.60, p.49, showing forty-odd versions of the ermine-tail. — Tamfang 06:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
Ah, gotcha! Something like that would certainly be worth having around, though I think an image like that might be better placed in the ermine article, with a smaller selection available as a picture in the tincture article section on furs. I'll dig around to see if someone I know is certain what the copyright restrictions on images are from Fox-Davies, or else see if one of my heraldic artist friends is willing to do an original drawing based on the Fox-Davies plate. Let me know if you come up with something before I do. --EncycloPetey 07:47, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding "Malcolm of Applecross" (SCA) is that really a violation of the tincture rule as it is usually understood? —Ashley Y 00:01, Dec 21, 2003 (UTC)

Well, if it were blazoned as one chevron on another, ("on a chevron vert, another of the field") this clearly would not violate the tincture rule. But I think the fimbriation blazon does. I am open to proof that this is wrong, however. --Daniel C. Boyer 16:21, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Firstly, I think the blazon is poorly worded, I would have preferred "argent, on a chevron voided vert...", which clearly does not violate the rule. But I also think, for instance, "argent, a chevron or fimbriated vert" does not violate the rule whereas "argent, a chevron vert fimbriated or" does. —Ashley Y 01:55, Jan 4, 2004 (UTC)
An entirely unrelated issue but I would have picked "pomes" (i.e. roundels vert) rather than actual apples if I'd been designing this coat. —Ashley Y 01:55, Jan 4, 2004 (UTC)

Methods of hatching have been invented for other tinctures than the ones shown. Should this be gotten into? --Daniel C. Boyer 19:47, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

In the case of the Borough of Richmond upon Thames supporters the light blue and dark blue oars are not that significant to this article as they are blazoned as proper. But perhaps this should be kept to show the historical development. --Daniel C. Boyer 16:27, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The only copy of the blazon I can find[1] has "On either side a Griffin Gules armed and beaked Azure each supporting an Oar proper the blade of the dexter Dark Blue and that of the sinister Light Blue." So the oars themselves are unexceptional but it's the blades that are tinctured unusually. Marnanel 00:13, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)
O.k. You're right. Mea culpa. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:38, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Split furs out

According to the article, furs are distinct from tinctures. The article should therefore be split and the sections about furs be moved to fur (heraldry). --Phil | Talk 11:37, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, they aren't distinct from other tinctures, though you're right that articles should probably exist for ermine and vair, with variants. --EncycloPetey 06:17, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
This is absolutely wrong. Furs are tinctures, as are metals, colours (including staynard colours), and proper is a tincture as well. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:52, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement drive

Heraldry has been nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Vote for this article there if you want to contribute. --Fenice 19:56, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Heraldric name of orange

  1. Red = Gules
  2. Orange = ?
  3. Yellow = Or
  4. Green = Vert
  5. Blue = Azure
  6. Purple = Purpure

Georgia guy 18:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The heraldic name for orange is orange, but it is not regarded by heraldic writers as one of the basic tinctures. There are only seven tinctures recognized by English heralds, and the list has been quite stable since the oldest known heraldic treatises in English. Orange appears as an extremely rare oddity, and the term tenné is more commonly used for an orangey colour, though it is not the same as Crayola orange. Orange as a noble colour is a relatively modern concept, and I can't think of any uses off the top of my head earlier than the period of the Dutch Revolt (late sixteenth century). In that case, the choice was made to pun off the name of William of Orange, who was a leader of the movement. --EncycloPetey 06:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
But does orange appear in arms in this context? I know there are some extremely unusual usages in South Africa and the Netherlands. --Daniel C. Boyer 19:53, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
In the English language, orange was not considered a separate colour to yellow until about the 1700's. Before then, orange and yellow were not distinguished, in much the same way that light blue and dark blue are both considered shades of blue. In Russian, light blue and dark blue have separate names in much the same way that we give separate names to red and pink (which themselves were not distinguished in Shakespeare's time). -- B.D.Mills  (T, C) 01:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Renaissance gemstone/planet blazoning, and problems with individual tincture pages

There was a Renaissance practice of sporadically blazoning colors with symbolic names of gemstones or planets. It's not of extreme significance in itself (and a number of late 19th century / early 20th century authors of heraldic reference works deprecated it), but it's a facet of heraldic history, and should probably be included in this article. Here are tables boiled down from a table posted by User:David H. Flint on Talk:Gules --

Tincture Planet Gemstone
Or Sun Topaz
Argent Moon Pearl
Azure Jupiter Sapphire
Gules Mars Ruby
Purpure Mercury Amethyst
Vert Venus Emerald
Sable Saturn Diamond
Stain Node Gemstone
Tenné Dragon's Head Jacinth
Sanguine / Murrey Dragon's Tail Sardonyx

What's currently a problem is that the individual tincture articles (such as Gules, Vert, etc.) now include problematic listings of claimed associations of colors with jewels, planets, zodiac signs, Greek classical elements, days of the week, months, metals, trees, flowers, birds, and virtues with each of the tinctures.

Unfortunately, the associations of planets with colors given in these articles often contradict the well-documented historical heraldic associations given in the table above (for example, Vert is listed as associated with Mercury, not Venus), and the associations of metals with colors given in the article contradict the well-known old "alchemical" assignments of different metals to the seven classical planets (which a broadly-educated Renaissance scribe who was interested in this kind of symbolism would have been well-aware of) -- for example, Gules is listed as associated with Mars (as is traditional), but then is given a non-traditional association with the metal copper.

And all the rest of it (zodiac signs, Greek classical elements, months, trees, flowers, birds, and virtues) seems to be undocumented, and not likely to be documentable with a reliable heraldic source.

I propose changing all the individual tincture pages so as to include the historical gemstone / planet associations listed in the tables above (as documented in the sources given on Talk:Gules), and possibly also the corresponding metal associations according to article Classical planets in western alchemy (I am not sure this association was ever made by heraldic writers, but such an association between colors and metals was made by historical alchemists / occultists), and junking everything else. AnonMoos 03:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

  • I should note that what AnonMoos says makes sense. I support the proposal. David H. Flint 11:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Done

I added the tables to this article page, and trimmed and revised the seven individual tincture article pages accordingly (hopefully completely consistently!). AnonMoos 23:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation?

I noticed there's no pronunciation guide for the tincture terms - for example, when talking in English, does 'Vert' have a silent 't', like the French 'vert', or not? Ditto for 'Argent', ...? 82.46.233.129 13:48, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

You can find this information on the corresponding Wiktionary entries, if you're curious. --EncycloPetey 17:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] de interwiki

If is it correct link, why links to en:Rule of tincture ? If is it correct, please replace links in the de: article. Else will my bot remove it in the next time too.JAn Dudík 19:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Please ask the editors on de WP to correct this. Their links are not our responsibility. Please do not assume that de in right and en is wrong. --EncycloPetey 19:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)