User:Timothy Perper/Sandbox5

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[edit] Shonen and Seinen Manga

This is the Sandbox for shonen manga. Please don't edit the text. Add comments below instead.

Do not edit the references.

General idea: There doesn't seem to be a good history of shonen, so we have to develop this thematically, giving examples.


== Shōnen, seinen, and seijin manga == (Level 3 Header)

Manga for male readers can be characterized in different ways. One is by the age of its intended audience: boys up to 18 years old (shōnen manga) and young men 18- to 30-years old (seinen manga).[1] Another approach is by content, including action-adventure often involving male heroes, slapstick humor, themes of honor, and sometimes explicit sexuality.[2][3] Japanese uses different kanji for two closely allied meanings of "seinen"—青年 for "youth, young man" and 成年 for "adult, majority"—the second referring to sexually overt manga aimed at grown men and also called seijin ("adult," 成人) manga.[4][5] Shōnen, seinen, and seijin manga share many features in common.


Boys and young men were among the earliest readers of manga after World War II.[6] From the 1950s on, shōnen manga focused on topics thought to interest the archetypical boy: sci-tech subjects like robots and space travel, and heroic action-adventure.[7] Shōnen and seinen manga narratives often portray challenges to the protagonist’s abilities, skills, and maturity, stressing self-perfection, austere self-discipline, sacrifice in the cause of duty, and honorable service to society, community, family, and friends.[6][8]


Manga with solitary costumed superheroes like Superman, Batman, and Spiderman did not become popular as a shōnen genre.[6] An exception is Kia Asamiya's Batman: Child of Dreams, released in the US by DC Comics and in Japan by Kodansha.[9] However, lone heroes occur in Takao Saito's Golgo 13 and Koike and Kojima's Lone Wolf and Cub. Golgo 13 is about an assassin who puts his skills to the service of world peace and other social goals,[10] and Ogami Itto, the swordsman-hero of Lone Wolf and Cub, is a widower caring for his son Daigoro while he seeks vengeance against his wife's murderers. However, Golgo and Itto remain men throughout and neither hero ever displays superpowers. Instead, these stories "journey into the hearts and minds of men" by remaining on the plane of human psychology and motivation.[11]


Many shōnen manga have science fiction and technology themes. Early examples in the robot subgenre included Tezuka’s Astroboy (see above) and Fujiko F. Fujio’s 1969 Doraemon, about a robot cat and the boy he lives with, which was aimed at younger boys.[12] The robot theme evolved extensively, from Mitsuteru Yokoyama's 1956 Gigantor to later, more complex stories where the protagonist must not only defeat enemies, but learn to master himself and cooperate with the mecha he controls.[13] Thus, in Neon Genesis Evangelion by Yoshiyuki Sadamoto, Shinji struggles against the enemy and against his father, and in Vision of Escaflowne by Katsu Aki, Van not only makes war against Dornkirk’s empire but must deal with his complex feelings for Hitomi, the heroine.[14]


Sports themes are also popular in manga for male readers.[6] These stories stress self-discipline, depicting not only the excitement of sports competition but also character traits the hero needs to transcend his limitations and to triumph[6], for example as a boxer (Tetsuya Chiba’s 1968-1973 Tomorrow’s Joe[15] and Rumiko Takahashi's 1987 One-Pound Gospel[16]) or a basketball player (Takehiko Inoue’s 1990 Slam Dunk[17]).


Supernatural settings have been another source of action-adventure plots in which the hero must master challenges. Sometimes the protagonist fails, as in Tsugumi Ohba and Takeshi Obata's Death Note, where protagonist Light Yagami receives a notebook from a Death God (shinigami) that kills anyone whose name is written in it, and Hakase Mizuki's The Demon Ororon, whose protagonist abandons his demonic kingship of Hell to live and die on earth.[18] Sometimes the protagonist himself is supernatural, like Kohta Hirano's Hellsing, whose vampire hero Alucard battles reborn Nazis hellbent on conquering England,[19] but the hero may also be (or was) human, battling an ever-escalating series of supernatural enemies (Hiromu Arakawa's Full Metal Alchemist, Nobuyuki Anzai's Flame of Recca, and Tite Kubo's Bleach).[20]


Military action-adventure stories set in the modern world, for example, about World War II, remained under suspicion of glorifying Japan’s Imperial history[6] and have not become a significant part of the shōnen manga repertoire.[6] Nonetheless, stories about fantasy or historical military adventure were not stigmatized, and manga about heroic warriors and martial artists have been extremely popular.[6] Some are serious dramas, like Sanpei Shirato's The Legend of Kamui and Rurouni Kenshin: Meiji Swordsman Romantic Story, by Nobuhiro Watsuki, but others contain strongly humorous elements, like Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball.[21]


Although stories about modern war and its weapons do exist, they deal as much or more with the psychological and moral problems of war as they do with sheer shoot-'em-up adventure.[6] Other battle and fight-oriented manga for males are complex stories of criminal and espionage conspiracies to be overcome by the protagonist, such as City Hunter by Hojo Tsukasa, Fist of the North Star by Tetsuo Hara, and From Eroica with Love by Aoike Yasuko, a long-running crime-espionage story combining adventure, action, and humor.[22]


For manga critics Koji Aihara and Kentaro Takekuma,[23] such battle stories endlessly repeat the same mindless themes of violence, which they sardonically label the "Shonen Manga Plot Shish Kebob", where fights follow fights like meat skewered on a stick.[24] Other commentators suggest that fight sequences and violence in comics serve as a social outlet for otherwise dangerous impulses.[25] Shōnen manga and its exteme warriorship have been parodied, for example, in Mine Yoshizaki's screwball comedy Sgt. Frog (Keroro Gunso), about a platoon of slacker alien frogs who invade the Earth and end up free-loading off the Hinata family in Tokyo.[26]


=== Sex and Women's Roles === (Keep as Level 3 Header?)

In early shōnen manga, men and boys played all the major roles, with women and girls having only auxiliary places as sisters, mothers, and occasionally girlfriends. Of the nine cyborgs in Shotaro Ishinomori's 1964 Cyborg 009, only one is female, and she soon vanishes from the action.[27] Some recent shōnen manga virtually omit women, e.g., the martial arts story Baki the Grappler by Itagaki Keisuke and the supernatural fantasy Sand Land by Akira Toriyama.[28] However, by the 1980s, girls and women began to play increasingly important roles in shōnen manga, for example, Akira Toriyama's 1980 Dr. Slump, whose main character is the mischievous and powerful girl robot Arale.[29]


The role of girls and women in manga for male readers has evolved considerably since Arale. One class is the pretty girl (bishōjo).[30] Sometimes the woman is unattainable, but she is always an object of the hero's emotional and sexual interest, like Belldandy from Oh My Goddess by Kosuke Fujishima and Shao-lin from Guardian Angel Getten by Sakurano Minene.[31] In other stories, the hero is surrounded by such girls and women, as in Negima by Ken Akamatsu and Hanaukyo Maid Team by Morishige.[32] The male protagonist does not always succeed in forming a relationship with the woman, for example when Bright Honda and Aimi Komori fail to bond in Shadow Lady by Masakazu Katsura.[33] In other cases, a successful couple's sexual activities are depicted or implied, like Outlanders by Johji Manabe.[34] In still other cases, the initially naive and immature hero grows up to become a man by learning how to deal and live with women emotionally and sexually, like Yota in Video Girl Ai by Masakazu Katsura, Train Man in Train Man: Densha Otoko by Hidenori Hara, and Makoto in Futari Ecchi by Katsu Aki.[35] In poruno- and eromanga (seijin manga), often called hentai manga in the US, a sexual relationship is taken for granted and depicted explicitly, as in work by Toshiki Yui [36] and in Were-Slut by Jiro Chiba and Slut Girl by Isutoshi.[37] The result is a range of depictions of boys and men from naive to very experienced sexually.


Heavily armed female warriors (sentō bishōjo) represent another class of girls and women in manga for male readers.[38] Some sentō bishōjo are battle cyborgs, like Alita from Battle Angel Alita by Yukito Kishiro, Motoko Kusanagi from Masamune Shirow's Ghost in the Shell, and Chise from Shin Takahashi's Saikano.[39] Others are human, like Attim M-Zak from Hiroyuki Utatane's Seraphic Feather, Johji Manabe's Karula Olzen from Drakuun, and Alita Forland (Falis) from Sekihiko Inui's Murder Princess.[40]


With the relaxation of censorship in Japan after the early 1990s, a wide variety of explicitly drawn sexual themes appeared in manga intended for male readers that correspondingly occur in English translations.[5] These depictions range from mild partial nudity through implied and explicit sexual intercourse through bondage and sadomasochism (SM), zoophilia (bestiality), incest, and rape.[41] In some cases, rape and lust murder themes came to the forefront, as in Urotsukidoji by Toshio Maeda[42] and Blue Catalyst from 1994 by Kei Taniguchi,[43] but these extreme themes are not commonplace in either untranslated or translated manga.[5][44]

References

  1. ^ Thompson, 2007, op. cit., pp. xxiii-xxiv. See also the opening sections of Un poil de culture - Une introduction à l'animation japonaise. 11/07/2007. http://www.metalchroniques.fr/guppy/articles.php?lng=fr&pg=437 Accessed 2007-12-25.
  2. ^ Brenner, Robin E. 2007. Understanding Manga and Anime. Westport, CT: Libraries Unlimited/Greenwood. pp. 31-34.
  3. ^ Another system of classification asserts that shōnen, seinen, and seijin manga—indeed, all genres of manga—must be defined by the intended audience or demographic of the magazine where the manga originally appeared regardless of content of the specific manga. This magazine-of-origin system occurs in the English-language Wikipedia in its Template:Infobox animanga for assigning demographic labels to manga. For a list of magazine demographics, see http://users.skynet.be/mangaguide/magazines.html, but that website does not use magazine audience or demographic for classifying manga, nor is this approach discussed by either Thompson (2007) or Brenner (2007) cited in the previous two endnotes. All websites accessed 2007-12-25.
  4. ^ Schodt, 1996, op. cit., p. 95. The French Wikipedia manga article uses the terms seinen and seijin to denote manga for adult men: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manga. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  5. ^ a b c Perper, Timothy and Martha Cornog 2002. "Eroticism for the masses: Japanese manga comics and their assimilation into the U.S." Sexuality & Culture, Volume 6, Number 1, pages 3-126 (Special Issue).
  6. ^ a b c d e f g h i Schodt, 1986, op. cit., chapter 3, pp. 68-87.
  7. ^ Schodt, 1986, op. cit., chapter 3; Gravett, 2004, op. cit., chapter. 5, pp. 52-73.
  8. ^ Brenner, 2007, op. cit., p. 31.
  9. ^ Asamiya: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2265; http://www.dccomics.com/graphic_novels/?gn=3746. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  10. ^ Golgo: http://www.viz.com/products/products.php?series_id=411. review: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/golgo-13-gn-4. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  11. ^ See http://www.darkhorse.com/reviews/archive.php?theid=215 for the quoted phrase. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  12. ^ Schodt, 1996, op. cit., pp. 216-220. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1335. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  13. ^ Schodt, Frederik L. 1988. Robots of the Imagination. In Inside the Robot Kingdom: Japan, Mechatronics, and the Coming Robotopia. Chapter 4, pp. 73-90. Tokyo:Kodansha International.
  14. ^ Evangelion: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2440. Escaflowne: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2382. All sites accessed 12-28-2008.
  15. ^ Schodt, 1986, op. cit., p. 84-85; http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=3345. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  16. ^ Gospel: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2417. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  17. ^ Masanao Amano, editor. 2004. Manga Design. Köln:Taschen. pp. 92-95. ISBN 3-8228-2591-3. http://www.shonenjump.com/news/newsroom/dunk_sj.php; http://comipress.com/article/2006/12/15/1160. All sites accessed 2007-12-24.
  18. ^ Death Note: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=4354; Accessed 2007-12-28. Ororon: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2999. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  19. ^ Hellsing: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=32. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  20. ^ Full Metal: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2565; Recca: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2701; Bleach: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2468. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  21. ^ Kamui: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2850. Rurouni: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1995. Dragon Ball: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=297. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  22. ^ City: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1593; Fist: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1547; Eroica: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=4151. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  23. ^ Aihara, Koji and Kentaro Takekuma. 1990/2002. Even a Monkey Can Draw Manga. San Francisco: Viz. pp. 53-63.
  24. ^ Aihara & Takekuma, 1990/2002. op. cit., illustration on p. 59.
  25. ^ Berek-Lewis, Jason. July 13, 2005. Comics in an Age of Terror. http://www.brokenfrontier.com/columns/details.php?id=308 Accessed 2007-12-25.
  26. ^ Sgt. Frog: http://www.tokyopop.com/product/1214/SgtFrog/2.html ; review: http://eyeonanime.co.uk/panda.php?mi=7&p=d&reviewid2=41. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  27. ^ Cyborg 009: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2598. (Accessed 2007-12-28.)
  28. ^ Baki: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1601; Sand Land: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=973. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  29. ^ Dr. Slump: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=970. Accessed 2007-12-27.
  30. ^ For multiple meanings of bishōjo, see Perper & Cornog, 2002, op. cit., pp. 60-63.
  31. ^ Guardian Angel Getten, by Sakurano Minene. Raijin Graphic Novels/Gutsoon! Entertainment, Vols. 1-4, 2003-2004. Guardian Angel Getten: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1622; Oh My Goddess: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1608. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  32. ^ Negima!, by Ken Akamatsu. Del Rey/Random House, Vols. 1-15, 2004-2007; Negima: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2891; Hanaukyo Maid Team, by Morishige. Studio Ironcat, Vols. 1-3, 2003-2004. Hanaukyo Maid Team: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2438. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  33. ^ Shadow Lady: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2924. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  34. ^ Outlanders: http://www.angelfire.com/anime/mangatemple/outlanders.html.
  35. ^ Video Girl Ai: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1538; Train Man: Densha Otoko, Hidenori Hara. Viz, Vols. 1-3, 2006; Futari Ecchi: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=3800. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  36. ^ Toshiki Yui: http://lambiek.net/artists/y/yui_toshiki.htm; http://www.yui-toshiki.com/shed/. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  37. ^ Slut Girl, by Isutoshi. Eros Comix, Nos. 1-6, 2000; http://www.fantagraphics.com/cart/showcat.cgi?Category=Comics+Erotica&SubCategory=Mangerotica&PageNo=10; Were-Slut, by Jiro Chiba. Eros Comix, Nos. 1-8, 2001-2002; http://www.fantagraphics.com/cart/showcat.cgi?Category=Comics+Erotica&SubCategory=Mangerotica&PageNo=12. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  38. ^ For the sentō bishōjo, translated as "battling beauty," see Kotani, Mari. 2006. "Metamorphosis of the Japanese girl: The girl, the hyper-girl, and the battling beauty." Mechademia: An Academic Forum for Anime, Manga and the Fan Arts, 1:162-170. See also William O. Gardner. 2003. Attack of the Phallic Girls: Review of Saitô Tamaki. Sentō bishōjo no seishin bunseki (Fighting Beauties: A Psychoanalysis). Tokyo: Ôta Shuppan, 2000. at http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/review_essays/gardner88.htm. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  39. ^ Alita: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2427; Ghost in the Shell: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1590; SaiKano: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2405. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  40. ^ Seraphic Feather: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1338; Drakuun: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Towers/9607/manabe/drakuunindex.html; Murder Princess: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=7215. All sites accessed 2007-12-28.
  41. ^ Perper, Timothy and Martha Cornog 2003 "Sex, love, and women in Japanese comics." In Robert T. Francoeur and Raymond Noonan, editors. The Comprehensive International Encyclopedia of Sexuality. New York: Continuum. pages 663-671. Section 8D in http://kinseyinstitute.org/ccies/jp.php. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  42. ^ Clements, Jonathan. 1998. "'Tits and Tentacles': Sex, Horror, and the Overfiend." In McCarthy, Helen & Jonathan Clements. 1998. The Erotic Anime Movie Guide. Chapter 4, pp. 58-81. See also http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=2500. Accessed 2007-12-28.
  43. ^ Taniguchi, Kei. 1994. "Blue Catalyst." San Antonio, TX: Emblem (Antarctic Press), Numbers 6-8.
  44. ^ Smith, Toren. 1991. "Miso Horny: Sex in Japanese Comics." The Comics Journal, No. 143, pp. 111-115.

[edit] Comments

Avoiding a potential POV debate The three ways of categorizing shonen will trigger off an argument repeating arguments that have appeared before on the manga talk page. I think we must prevent a pointless argument about the issue, and first paragraph is as resolutely NPOV as I can make it. The only question here is of finding references, not one's personal preferences. I can't stress this enough.

Tezuka’s 1948 Lost World dealt with a mission to Mars.


(TP): Glitch. Wikipedia gives Gigantor starting date as 1958; Gravett gives 1956. I trust Gravett more than Wiki. Another glitch: ANN gives Gigantor starting date as 1956; Wiki says 1958.

(TP) Another glitch. Tomorrow's Joe doesn't direct to that page, even though there is one.

Looks pretty good. Someone mentioned over referencing in the peer review, and someone mentioned too many examples there or on the manga talk page. Originally all the examples seemed like a good idea to me, but now I'm thinking we could streamline it a bit. This is not a sticking point with me at all, but I think paragraphs of 5-6 sentences, one of which has 1-2 examples, might be the best way to do it. Looking at Shōnen for example, we could just about paste what youve written over that page, or at least make it a section. Then a link to Shōnen will give people access to all the refed examples, and it will make manga a bit smaller. What do you think? Duplication is allowed in WP, so if you want it in both places, that works too. It's just that Manga is starting to have more/better info than its subpages. At some point we should feed those needy pages with our cornucopia of knowledge. I have to go, but I'll add more detailed comments soon. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 00:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah. I've been concocting schemes to deal with the examples and the so-called "over-referencing" (Farix's complaint). If we cut the references back too far, then we're back where we began, with OR and no chance at getting this to GA. We can put our heads together and decide which examples can go (I'm not wedded to them either), but we have to beware of the referencing problem too.
One possibility -- which I don't much like -- is to squeeze the examples into the endnotes. That actually doesn't save bandwidth, but it makes the section seem shorter. It's also less readable, because the examples make the text more vivid.
My sort-of, not-really-sure-but-sort-of, feeling is to reduce the number of examples and then simply tell the complainers that we did what they wanted, thank you so much for your advice.
Yes, let's feed the subpages. My overall take on it is this: the main page (this article) sets down the major generalizations we want. The subpages can/should go into more detail, substantively, I mean, not more fanboy drivel, where those sub-articles take a more focused look at whatever it is. There are some pages that are currently hopeless (lolicon is among the worst) because of flame wars and various hatreds triggered off by the topic, and I have no intention of wading into those battles.
There's also a problem in the main article about dojinshi. I simply don't know enough about it to rewrite it, and I think it should be cut or transferred to the dojinshi subarticle.
BTW, a guess: I suspect that "Manga" was one of the first pages written, and lots of people threw all kinds of stuff into it, and started fighting amongst themselves when the result got out of hand. So "new articles" were spun off as a peace-keeping maneuver, and we're stuck with the results -- lots of not too good, under-referenced OR material in a variety of places.
Timothy Perper (talk) 01:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Sounds like we're on the same page. I don't know enough about manga to really decide which examples are the prototypes, but maybe we could take a poll or something on the manga talk page. I think for now we can include it all, then start a conversation on the talk page. We may be the only ones talking, but at least everyone is given a chance to add their input. I'd like to add a bit of well referenced info about lolicon and dojinshi, probably because as a hard core english speaking internet user, they seem pretty prevalent. I've read a multi page article in (I believe) the India Times about hentai and lolicon and its popularity in internet cafes in India, so I'll look for that and some other RSs that discuss it and dojinshi. They don't necessarily need their own sections, but it would be nice to inform people what the state (or lack there of) of scholarship is on these subjects. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:45, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Found the article, although it doesn't have as much info as I thought it had. [1] It does mention adult manga and its perception in other countries, though. I'll look for something better. I read a discussion where you and some editor couldn't find anything on lolicon, so I doubt I'll find anyting, but I may as well try. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 05:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
ANN has some stuff about lolicon. Mostly answerman Q and A's, but also a news article. I think answerman is reliable for general facts. We wouldn't want to use his opinions, or else we could say "ANN's answerman feels that..." Loli backlash in Japan news article, recent upswing in lolicon fans, bunch more
Dojinshi articles copyright issues and devoloping new manga artists, economics of dojinshi, pretty good, general search, alternate spelling general search. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 06:10, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Way to go! I'm going to do some fixes on the refs next. I've got a good paper on copyright issues with dojinshi. Also try "Ask John" on the Anime Nation website -- he's their equivalent of the Answerman. Timothy Perper (talk) 08:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Oops. The paper is mostly about copyright and fan distribution -- fan subbing and the like -- not dojinshi. It's at http://www-swiss.ai.mit.edu/6095/student-papers/fall03-papers/Progress_Against_the_Law.html. Timothy Perper (talk) 11:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] We're almost there

One more check from both of us, and we can put it in. I'll do it because I want to add a note to the talk page about it.
Somebody "fixed" some references using one of those stupid templates and managed to get the references completely deleted. I fixed all of it, and left a note about it. But I imagine somebody will do it again.
Did you get the image of Tania and Saisni I emailed you?
Timothy Perper (talk) 02:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That sucked, I just closed the wrong tab and lost a half hour's worth of comments. I'll reconstruct them quickly. I know you have a master plan, so take a lot of these with a grain of salt, since I'm just scanning through.

Probaby shouldn't be using forums as refs, like in ref #3. Hopefully ref #2 backs up the sentence, and we can use #3 to explain WPs categorization plan.

I agree about using a forum, but it is the only reference I could find. Brenner (ref #2) does not even mention the magazine-of-origin criterion. Normally, I'd leave it out completely, but then we have the POV problem that Wiki uses the magazine-of-origin criterion. So I included the forum ref knowing that it's not a good reference.

"Shōnen, seinen, and seijin manga share many features warranting their discussion together." Meta statement about the article as opposed to manga. Probably should be something like "Shōnen, seinen, and seijin manga share many features." It's basically an editorial decision that we don't need to inform the reader of, unless we can find a ref for it.

Fine.

"sci-tech" should probably be science fiction unless there's a nuance that I'm missing.

Fine.

"Supernatural settings have been a rich source of action-adventure plots" should be "Supernatural settings have been a source of action-adventure plots" unless we have a ref for the mildly strong wording.

Fine

Don't need ref for Sgt. Fury, since I don't believe the toonopedia article mentions manga. Hopefully the sixth ref mention him by name, in which case a link to Fury's page is sufficient.

Took him out.

"fights follow fights like meat skewered on a stick." Is that a translation or a quote? If it's translated, we should say something in the ref. If it's a quote, we should add quotes around it. Love the wording either way.

It's a picture, and my description. Let me dig up the reference and see about quoting.
The quote and page reference are correct. I just checked.

"girl robot Arale dominates the story from the first panels onwards." Maybe "Arale is the main character" would be better.

Fine.

I think whatever illustration we choose should be of something we discuss in the article. It's easy to find them with google image search. Maybe something like this, or else mentino the armadillo manga in the article. I have the image ready to go if we want to include it. Either way, for fair use reasons I'll upload it after we add the text.

Yes, I will mention it. I didn't because the picture wasn't in yet. I got a "please do not link to our images" message in French when I clicked on the hyperlink. The reason for using the Tania and Saisni image is that it illustrates TWO things mentioned in the text: Tania with her sword on the left illustrates a sento bishojo and Saisni in her blue bathing suit illustrates bishojo. It's not common to get a single picture that shows two things at once.

Well there's some specific comments. I think it looks pretty good for now. It would be nice to have a method of inclusion beyond ANN's genre categories, but I don't know of a better way. Doing the comments twice has kind of tuckered me out, so you can either add it to manga when you want, or I'll make some copy edits in the next day or two. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I made all the changes, which seem good. I also prepped the text for Tania and Saisni. Why don't you look at it again, and then I'll add it to the article tmw. We don't have to add Tania and Saisni -- what do you think? Timothy Perper (talk) 07:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, we're rockin. We'll be able to put the article for GA review soon, I'd imagine. Then the real fun begins. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 07:36, 30 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Well, it's No Go on the manga page

We ran out of space, according to a robot. OK, so we put this into the shonen manga article instead, which has only a very short introduction and no references of any kind. Let's discuss this briefly, and then insert the new material (the stuff here) into shonen manga. I put a note on the shonen manga talk page about it. Timothy Perper (talk) 19:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I coomented in a reply to your email. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 21:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Many thanks. I'll put the new shonen section in this evening, and you can then add the image. Timothy Perper (talk) 22:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)