Talk:Timothy Leary

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[edit]

The term "Timothy Leary tickets" returns 54 hits on google. I think somebody is trying to coin a new term on wikipedia.

No mention of Ken Kesey??


What about his interest in the internet / computers? __________

Leary did NOT originate the eight circuit model of consciousness.

Kyle
Yes, he did. Its based on his Interpersonal Diagnosis of Personality. Who do you think originated it?

In his first autobiography, "What Does WoMan Want", he relates in detail that the fully developed theory was presented to him one evening in October 1963 by a "Professor Adams" (certainly a pseudoname). This happened during an extended visit by Adams to the Millbrook mansion in New York. Adams, in turn, was acting as an emissary from an Indian guru who lived "on the mudbanks of the Ganges river". - Dr. Lightning

__________


Much of what was written about his sentence to prison wasn't accurate according to Chaos and Cyber Culture and Pschopharmocology. There were also two paragraghs discussing his escape/sentence but they were out of sequence so I fixed them.

Timothy Leary was kidnapped by Interpol agents at the airport in Kabul, Afghanistan and extradited to the US in 1974

The word kidnapped seems a little POV, as it has the connotation of unlawful capture. I am changing it to detained, but if anyone can come up with a better NPOVism, by all means insert it.

It was unlawful capture -- the United States had no extradition treaty with Afghanistan at that time, and U. S. law enforcement agents (who got him, not Interpol) had no legal authority to detain or arrest anyone on Afghani soil.
It was, in terms of legality, in fact a kidnapping by agents of the government of the United States. However, using the phrase "unlawfully captured" is probably better in order to avoid a fight with those who think NPOV means you can't call a spade a spade.
Davidkevin 06:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I added a sentence from Luc Sante's NYT book review article about that. Sante indicates it was legal. I noted that there's disagreement about that. The best solution would be to find a source that says it was illegal and include that as a sourced comment. Neutrality isn't avoiding an issue, it's just presenting both sides if there's a disagreement, preferably both sides can be sourced.
Noroton
According to the obit, he was arrested while still on board the plane (technically not yet Afghani soil). International law becomes very tricky when concerning international travel via airplane, and I'm not sure of the ins and outs of it, but I believe passengers are under the jurisdiction of whatever nation the airline is based in until they touch terra firma (which is why 18 -year-olds can drink wine on AirFrance flights even while in US airspace). If this is the case, then the arrest was legal, if ethically dubious.--Rockero 18:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Kyle
Wasn't the flight out of Switzerland? There was no extradition treaty with them either, so it is still illegal. True?
While on vacation in Mexico, he tried hallucinogenic Psilocybin Mushrooms while participating in a Native American religious ritual, an experience that would vastly alter the course of his life.

In Leary's Flashbacks (ISBN 0874774977) he writes that he first used mushrooms while vacationing in Mexico, but not as part of a Native American religious ritual. According to Leary, Frank Barron, an old friend and colleague, had told Leary of such mushrooms in 1959, and it was with a scientific bent that Leary sought out the mushrooms in the summer of 1960 as a potential new avenue for affecting change within the framework of his existential/transactional approach to psychotherapy.

I'm inclined to believe Leary unless someone can cite a source for the current version of the event. Timbo 04:06, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've got a question about this one. There's that whole claim that the decapitation was faked for the movie, but no references. I've never heard that anywhere else. Can someone either verify, provide a reference, or alter the language to turn it into a claimed possibility rather than an established fact?

Was the catch phrase "Tune in, turn on, drop out" or "turn on, tune in, drop out"? The second makes more sense but that may not be a guide!

"These psychedelic substances cause hysterical psychoses in people who have not taken them..."

- Timothy Leary

"In the information age, you don't teach philosophy as they did after feudalism. You perform it. If Aristotle were alive today he'd have a talk show."

- Timothy Leary


"A lot of psychologists I have known over the years agreed with Leary - they acknowledged in private that LSD was an incredibly valuable tool. But these same psychologists backed off as the heat from the government increased, until they all became as silent as moonlight on a tombstone. And Tim was still out there with his angry Irish temper, denouncing the government and fighting on alone.

"I don't want to discount that there are people whose lives have been destroyed by drugs, but are they the result of Timothy's research or the result of government policies? Leary's research was dosed down, and the media stopped quoting him a long time ago. Most people don't even understand what Leary's opinions were or what it was he was trying to communicate. By contrast, the government's policies have been carried out for 30 years, and now we have a major drug disaster in this country. Nobody, of course, thinks it's the government's fault - they think it's Leary's for trying to prevent it, for trying to have scientific controls over the thing. He deserves a better legacy than that."

- Robert Anton Wilson

I just began creating an 8-fold consciousness node if anyone's interested. Leary's philosophies get way too little attention from the mainstream, considering how monumental they were/are.

The factual accuracy of the following is disputed, but it was suggested on VfD that it be merged into this article from 8-Circuit Consciousness.

Dr. Timothy Leary, the famous guru of 1960's American hippie drug culture, developed a theory of evolution based on 8 circuits of ascending consciousness.

The Eightfold Model of Human Consciousness

  • Intelligence/Reality
    • 8 Spiritual/Cosmic
    • 7 Mythic/Immortal
    • 6 Psychic/Psionic
    • 5 Sensory/Hedonic
    • 4 Social/Civilized
    • 3 Conceptual/Paleolithic
    • 2 Emotional/Mammalian
    • 1 Physical/Invertebrate


Ref : http://www.deoxy.org/8brains.htm

The pic and article on the DEA page http://www.dea.gov/pubs/states/newsrel/sanfran112403.html says that the DEA arrested Leary in 1972, while this article says he was on the run between 72 and 74. Which is right? Kwertii 19:02, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Jail

How long was he in jail for? Did he die in jail? The article never says.

Kyle
He did not die in Jail.

[edit] God Children

I remember that Tim had a goddaughter named... I think Sarah. She was a young afro-American girl. Does anyone have any information on her? We should add her to the list. Joi 18:42, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Unless she's "encyclopedic" (i.e. that she has, or could reasonably be expected to get in future, a wikipedia article on her own merits beyond being the godchild of an encyclopedic person) then I'd say adding her would merely be trivia (and thus not something I'd personally advocate). -- John Fader 19:26, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Noticed that I've been dropped from the list too. Not a big deal, but if I have a Wikipedia article that survived a vfd, am I not notable? --Joi 07:35, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I found a video of Timothy referring to Sarah as is grand daughter and me as his godson [1] -- Joi 00:17, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Published Works

I added a published works section because Leary wrote volumes during his lifetime. The section is by no means complete, so please add to it if any of you have additions/corrections/etc. Timbo 23:13, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The correct order of the phrase is: Turn On, Tune In, Drop Out

It was the title of a collection of essays by Timothy Leary on topics ranging from religion, education and politics to Aldous Huxley, neurology and psychedelic drugs. ISBN: 1579510094 --VeniceBruin 01:21, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The full Leary quote is "Like every great religion of the past we seek to find the divinity within and to express this revelation in a life of glorification and the worship of God. These ancient goals we define in the metaphor of the present—turn on, tune in, drop out." This was part of a formal press conference given by Leary in New York in September 1966. http://sunrisedancer.com/radicalreader/library/stormingheaven/stormingheaven24.asp Merenta
It may be the "correct" way of saying it, but I heard him remix it in a bunch of ways rather randomly... --Joi 07:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit]  ?

"At one point in his final delirium, he according the words "why not" to his son Zachery."

Am I stoned or is the above sentence meaningless? RodC

Our job is to state facts, and the quote is meaningful in the sense that it is Leary's last words. The quote has many meanings, and I believe a few are discussed on various web pages and/or books. --Viriditas | Talk 03:00, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I didn't mean Leary's quote was meaningless, Viriditas, I meant the Wikipedia text, as I reproduced above, was meaningless (and I didn't get what the original writer wanted to say). However, while I was writing that comment, and even before I uploaded a slight style correction to the article, 24.34.92.38 rewrote that and other things. Cheers. RodC 10:02, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Gotcha. Thanks for explaining. --Viriditas | Talk 00:06, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] FBI

What about the rumors that he turned in some friends to the FBI? 205.217.105.2 23:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can you cite reputable sources? --Viriditas | Talk 00:09, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Does http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/380815.stm count? 24.54.208.177 03:38, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Again, please cite that source in the article. --Viriditas | Talk 04:12, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

After finding it interesting and googling it, the only results I found about this:

Leary claimed to have discovered an extra primary color he referred to as "gendale".

Are this page, or the archives for a website called gullible.info, so I'd say it's pretty dubious. Not confident enough to remove it though. 212.9.22.222 14:47, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I deleted it on the page yesterday and asked for a source. Someone else updated citing a Guardian Article from this week that more than likely is based on the Wikipedia article. Where did Leary make this "claim"? If this "fact" is true and/or important, why are there only 40 Google returns, all of which are the same phrase without new info. Unless someone can show where this claim was made, this "trivia" ought to be removed.--Snarfer 23:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I run Gullible.info which is a compendium of fabricated information. To the best of my knowledge, this post by a writer for my site is the first place this "fact" has ever appeared. We don't do anti-research to verify that facts are indeed incorrect, but they are nearly 100% fabricated. If there is a legitimate citation for this piece of information it is misinformed. I have deleted line from the trivia section. Kylestoneman 18:10, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, don't I feel stupid. Looks like I restored the edit with the Guardian cite, originally added by MitchR (talk · contribs) [2]. Kylestoneman, thanks for getting to the bottom of this. —Viriditas | Talk 05:50, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence

From the article - Timothy Leary's ideas also heavily influenced the work of Robert Anton Wilson. This influence went both ways and Leary took just as much from Wilson. The first sentence seems manifestly true (and RAW says as much). The second seems eminently plausible, but I don't recall seeing any proof. Anyone have a source? Dan 02:58, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Just an interesting fact... I read Cosmic Trigger by RAW before I met Tim. When I met him, I asked him about the Starseed Transmissions and other things that RAW said Tim did. Tim laughed and said RAW made it all up. That comment could also have been party in jest, but he seemed to think it was pretty funny at the time. ;-) --Joi 18:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

There is also a great deal of mention about Timothy Leary in the musical "Hair." His name is mentioned often in the tune "Manchester England." "now that I've dropped out, why is life dreary dreary? Answer my weary queery, Timothy Leary dearie." There is also a number called "Hare Krishna/ Be-In" which is representative to the Be-In that happened in San Francisco. The tribe chants "Turn on, tune in, drop out." Just thought I'd share my experience.

There is no mention of the band Guster's song bearing Leary's name. It is on their newest CD "Satellite EP.

[edit] Cite Source?

Can anyopne cite the source for the following quote under 'Early Life'?

"an anonymous institutional employee who drove to work each morning in a long line of commuter cars and drove home each night and drank martinis .... like several million middle-class, liberal, intellectual robots."

if not maybe it should be removed...--Alex 20:56, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I think, but am not certain in memory, that this is a quotation from his autobiography, Flashbacks. Davidkevin 19:56, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I seem to recall the same. —Viriditas | Talk 20:24, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not think one can say with certainty whether or not Hunter S. Thomson spoke negatively of Leary in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. It is truly a matter of opinion. I think Thomson became unsettled upon the realization of the disturbed nature of his own life, and Leary's acid generation was mentioned in passing. There was no sense of bitterness or spite on Thomson's part.

[edit] CIA

moved from article to talk:

===CIA Stooge?===
Odd that there's no mention anywhere on this page of Leary's CIA connections. The fact that he had such connections is not in doubt, the interesting and enduring mystery is the extent and nature of Leary's involvement with the CIA. Someone should do a section on this....

--He:ah? 20:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


Obviously those guys at CIA are familiar with cognitive science(s) and related topics/studies/research.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Brian G. Wilson (talk • contribs) 04:46, June 13, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Tool sample

I just reworded the bit about a Leary speech being used for a Tool track. Does anyone know from where this sample came? I figure it's got to be from a spoken word album or perhaps a lecture. Anyway, it should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kansaikiwi (talk • contribs) 16:48, 10 April 2006 (UTC)


  It's not a Leary quote, it's Bill Hicks.

It is indeed a Leary quote, in the Live version which can be found on the Album "Salival"

  It is a Bill hicks quote in the Studio Version.

Yeah, you're right, well done mate. Anyway, the live version has a Leary sample which I wish we could reference. Does anyone know? He says "Think for yourself, question authority" a few times and a little speech why. Kansaikiwi 15:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Precision

I think this article could stand to be more precise in its description of Leary's academic career. Right now the description of his experiments' turn from scientific validity to debauched parties relies on a quote from a book review, which is presented as unbiased fact. His firing is similarly problematic in its phrasing - giving an undergrad drugs from "his stash" lacks clarity - laws were different at the time, and the cover of academic freedom makes this an action for which details are important. (I honestly don't know much about it - but reading it, I'm left without the information necessary to draw a conclusion about whether it was a reasonable firing). 24.136.38.121 17:42, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another link is needed

The link to the text Leary's US Supreme Court case is missing. http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/History/e1960/learyvus.htm

I would put it in myself but I have been told by editors that putting such links in is "spamming" -- even though these same links are contained in other relevant articles.

[edit] <<<<<<<<<<<YAY AREAAAA>>>>>>>>>>>>

What is the <<<<<<<<<<<YAY AREAAAA>>>>>>>>>>>> at the beginning of the page? It doesn't show up in the edit screen. Are other people seeing it when they view the page? Does anyone know how to get rid of it? Kriegman 17:47, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Uh?

Astronaut?

-Possibly referring to him being a "space cadet"

[edit] Millbrook

I think this section is an example of negative, subjective prose. Using terms like "who had been dragged through so much", "had been neglected and passively abused for many years", and "began to fall apart" is not proper. The only citation is a book review; the book's author is not cited, and there is no evidence offered that Leary's kids were abused, passively or otherwise. These are not presented as a quote, but just as material from a book review. Also, there is mention of Susan shooting her boyfriend, but no connection with Timothy Leary or Millbrook concerning that, and it took place well after Millbrook was closed. The addition of the phrase "Jack managed to repair himself, but has avoided publicity ever since" is totally argumentative, as is it's place here. I think the whole paragraph should not be there, so I deleted it. It goes beyond "weasel words" to something inappropriate in a biography. Rosencomet 22:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I also dropped some similar uncited claims that "Leary's affidavits and archives provided the government with a significant amount of intelligence on the American left and drug scenes", and the phrase "the lack of convictions directly based on Leary's testimony does not mean that his information did not strengthen the government's hand considerably", examples of pure conjecture requiring the proof of a negative (just because I can't demonstrate something doesn't mean it DIDN'T happen). And I took out such hyperbole as "The testimony, which had been primarily instigated by Joanna, served as a controversial rallying point for the declining American counterculture" and "serving as a traitorous pawn in a vast governmental conspiracy against the left wing", which can hardly be considered factual material. Rosencomet 23:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Under "Psychedelic experiences and experiments" there is this quote:
Later the Millbrook estate was described as "the headquarters of Leary and gang for the better part of five years, a period filled with endless parties, epiphanies and breakdowns, emotional dramas of all sizes, and numerous raids and arrests, many of them led by the local assistant district attorney, G. Gordon Liddy.[3]
Later described by whom? Anyone reputable? And where should the end quote go? Rosencomet 16:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concord Prison Experiment

I've replaced the section about the cited follow-up study with one that more accurately reflects its conclusions. While the article does mention that follow-up contact was attempted, it also says that it was found to be beyond the ability of the study group to do so effectively. The notion that there is a problem with comparing the experimental group with the control group due to these attempts is a conclusion of the editor who wrote about that, not one mentioned in the conclusion of the study he/she cited. However, the fact that the follow-up contests the original reports of the success of the experiment is worthy of note, and I've included some of the actual text of the study's conclusions to clarify their stand. Rosencomet 17:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup?

This article is getting kind of long, and there seems to be a tendency to throw in information without much organization. Anyone else think this article needs to be cleaned up? Jermor 03:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Early Writings

I am nearly positive that Leary wrote another academic book before using psychedelics. Can't recall title. May have been The Therapeutic Responce. Whatever its title; I beleive the book was an analysis (or interpretation) of positive psychotherapeutic results irrespective of therapist ideological orientation, in terms of von Neumann's Theory of Games and Economic Behavior.

[edit] Trivia

See WP:TRIVIA —Christopher Mann McKayuser talk 06:37, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Timothy Leary's Memorial Volume: OUTSIDE LOOKING IN: APPRECIATIONS, CASTIGATIONS, REMINISCENCES

this excellent site for Tim would be a little better, more complete, with mention of his Festschift, OUTSIDE LOOKING IN: APPRECIATIONS, CASTIGATIONS, REMINISCENCES, published in 1998 by Inner Traditions International, edited by Robert Forte.

This book contains over thirty original writings and interviews about Tim and his legacy by many of the rascals, scholars, friends who knew and loved him. Praise and criticism. Thoughtful. Intelligent...

63.249.102.204 22:58, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Conservative bullsh$t on the page

Didn't nobody noticed the paragraph were it said Leary met Charles Mason in the jail??? Subtly inserted in the biography, it couldn't be more false! Tought I have no idea with who did Timothy Leary spend his time with in the jail I'm very sure it was not with Charles Manson, and for sure Charles didn't said that now he knew what to do.The Manson family kills were in 1969 and Leary whent to prison on 1972.... Conservative propaganda. I've erased the pharagraph by the way...


He does meet him. He talks about it in his auto-biography Flashbacks. I'm going to revert your edit.Kansaikiwi 14:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

  • It's true; he talks about it elsewhere in his lectures. So does Robert Anton Wilson. As a psychologist, he found the opportunity to observe Manson interesting. (It's not like they became friends or anything; Leary considered it one more bizarre and surreal event in a chain of them associated with his arrest and incarceration.) I know of no citation for the "alleged" Manson quote, though, and see no reason to keep it. Rosencomet 15:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I also heard from Tim that he was "in the next cell to Charles Manson" - Joi 18:02, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Sounds rhetorical though doesn't it? Jemmy Button 21:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I deleted the dubious Manson quote and added a cite for the cell-next-door. Jemmy Button 00:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Uma's Dad?

This statement: "He is mentioned on a track of Daniel Tosh's CD, True Stories I Made Up, where he states, "I believe the act of non-doing is the most important act of all. Thanks Uma's Dad!" - referring to Leary as Uma Thurman's father" makes no sense. I wouldn't know Daniel Tosh if he bit me, but unless Tosh explicitly says somewhere that he is referencing TL, this liner-note is referring to Robert Thurman, who is Uma Thurman's father, and an influential Buddhist scholar. The "non-doing" reference makes much better sense as a Buddhist statement, esp. with the reference to Uma's dad. It's Bob Thurman, not TL. I'm changing this unless someone can show some better citations? Morgaledh 20:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Timothy Leary was married to Uma Thurman's mom before Robert Thurman was, but you're probably right to remove the quote.

[edit] Japan

Joi Ito's blogs say he lived in Japan late in life. Do mention it. Jidanni 19:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I checked the article by Joi Ito, and it does not say that Leary LIVED in Japan, just that he met him there. Later, Ito visited him in L.A. Unless you can document Leary setting up residence there, please don't include this. He was definitely a resident of L.A. from 1991 on. Rosencomet 17:42, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Tim never lived in Japan. He was visiting when I met him. - Joi 18:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Summation

A reprehensible showman. A charlatan. An interesting life. He was never at a loss for company..

--Philopedia 23:49, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Quite Jemmy Button 21:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] etoy Mission Eternity

http://missioneternity.org/pilots/test-pilot-leary/

I've posted a picture of Timothy's mortal remains that are being used for this project. I'm involved and conflicted so I won't write on the main page about this, but I thought the image was relevant and neutral. More information at the link above. --Joi 07:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Social science style references need to be replaced with wiki references

Currently there's a mixture. It's not a lot of work, but I just did a punctuation cleanup and I'm out of patience. Jemmy Button 21:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

Please incorporate this material, if possible, into the article. —Viriditas | Talk 23:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

  • Leary biscuits are crackers topped by a piece of cheese, butter, or other fatty topping, covered in turn with a bud of marijuana and microwaved briefly.[1]
  • In World War I Leary's father, "Tote" Leary, was drafted as a dental surgeon into the U.S. Army (commissioned a first lieutenant,[2] then promoted to captain just before the war ended in 1918) and assigned to West Point, where he
    "consorted with fellow officers and gentlemen such as General Douglas MacArthur, then the superintendent of West Point; Captain Omar Bradley; and Lieutenant George Patton. It was at West Point on January 17, 1920, on the day after Prohibition became the law of the land, that Tim Leary was conceived. Abigail would later recall that during her pregnancy, the smell of distilling moonshine and bathtub gin hung over officers' row like a "rowdy smog." Tote once told his son that while Prohibition itself was bad, it was not nearly as bad as no booze at all. At 10:45 A.M. on October 22, 1920, seven days before his father's thirty-second birthday, Timothy Francis Leary was born in Springfield, Massachusetts. Once Abigail gave birth to a son, General MacArthur, who had also been raised on an army post, took a special interest in the family."

[edit] Another possibly useful photo

Leary in 1990, with Seattle activist Vivian McPeak
Leary in 1990, with Seattle activist Vivian McPeak

Additional image of Leary, possibly of use in the article. He was visiting an anti-war vigil. Vivian McPeak, with whom he is pictured, was one of the spokespeople of the vigil, and is now executive director of Seattle Hempfest. - Jmabel | Talk 19:40, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Movie poster.

Please note. The movie poster "Timothy Leary's Dead" is my copyright. I designed it for Paul Davids who produced the film. Aimulti (talk) 10:30, 19 April 2008 (UTC)