Talk:Timişoara

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    [edit] Famous natives

    I have removed Gheorghe Ciuhandu from the "Famous natives" list because he does not belong there! I know people like him (I also voted for him the last 2 times) but this still does not make him proper for the list!

    Famous is somebody who has has gotten known outside the community that we are talking about. Ciuhandu is known just inside the community and also does not have any historical relevance! If we continue like this, we could directly put 350000 names and that's it! We have all of them!

    Nobody wrote about for ex: Florimund_Mercy, and he has been the first Governor of Timisoara (not written in Wikipedia, Yet!) and you can even find him in Encyclopædia Britannica.

    Cheers! SiSoie


    Hey guys, I didn't change any content but there were a ton of English grammar mistakes I tried to clean up. The article could use some more corrections by a native speaker though.

    [edit] Huge history section

    Shoudn't the history section be a little smaller for this main page? I guess we could do some Timisoara's History file and just leave here the important part. Dent

    if what remains in Timişoara page presents a balanced view I agree with keeping the history part small and having the info moved to History of Timişoara AdrianTM 16:33, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
    Just don't delete the sentence, give me some time to find a source. If I can't find it, then I'll remove it. —Khoikhoi 17:04, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
    Well... I deleted the sentence based on the argument bellow, I don't think "ethnically cleansing" is appropriate. I think we should have more precise language: were killed, or forced to leave, or encourage to leave, or they left for better life, or combination of some of those (reference needs to be included too) "Ethnic cleansing" is a very fuzzy (and loaded) term. AdrianTM 17:25, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
    Hmmm, you're right, but ethnic cleansing is when a group is forced to leave. It will most likely be removed however.
    Incedentally, part of my family was from Transylvania, most of the ones who didn't leave Europe died in the Holocaust however. So the part about Jews is essentially correct. —Khoikhoi 17:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
    I'm sorry to hear about your family. My point was about precision. I prefer to have a text that says that Communists (or Romanians, or whatever) killed 10,000 Jews or Hungarians or others (with proofs and references), than to say without precision that Jews were "ethnically cleansed". Do you agree? Also the part about Jews is not clear to me and in that form it implied that Communists made them disappeared. I have to proclaim my ignorance in this subject though, I just wish it to be clear. Thanks for help. AdrianTM 20:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
    By the way, as far as I know Israel and Germany paid the Communists to let Jews and Germans to emigrate (we can't mix all that population movement into "ethnic cleansing") AdrianTM 21:55, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
    Yes, I see what you're saying. Let's see what Fz22, the user who added the info has to say. —Khoikhoi 23:05, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
    Some German families (who were 'suspected' to have had connections with the Third Reich) were send to concentration camps in Siberia by the Read Army when they occupied the area. Then, there were the deportations to Bărăgan, but the deportees belonged to all ethnicities. Finally, there were part of the Jews and Germans who left for Israel and Germany, under a treaty between those countries and Romania: they had to pay a sum to reinburse their education (AFAIK, there were different sums for high-school graduates, university graduates, PhDs...), but no one was ever forced to emigrate. bogdan 22:21, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Original research in history part

    Please provide quotations and references. Also please remove POV and don't use loaded terms as "ethnic cleansing" rather please explain what happened. For example, if Germans were forced to leave say "Germans were forced to leave by this ruler and by this law (or agains the law)" not "Germans were ethnic cleansed" since that introduce ambiguity. For example who forced the Jews, Germans and Hungarians to leave? Where they forced? If the were: how and by whom? Did some of them leave for better life in richer countries? Were they killed or were they forced to leave? See "ethnic cleansing" is not a precise term therefore I don't think it should be used, anyway not without clear explanations and references. AdrianTM 21:53, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

    I'll try to find sources. If I can't find them, then I'll remove the sentences. BTW, don't remove the reference to the atlas, I can scan the page for you if you want. Peace. —Khoikhoi 23:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Al-Idrisi / Idrisi

    [edit] mayor of Timisoara

    [edit] Robert Musil ..

    ..was born in Klagenfurt, his father Alfred was born in Timişoara Ekem 18:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] About History

    Was Timisoara regained from the Turks by Hungary? In the History of Timisoara article, it is stated that Timisoara was taken by the Habsburg imperial troups. Did Hungary exist as a political entity in 1716?

    [edit] is a multicultural city?

    7% Hungarians, 2% Germans and 2% Serbs versus 90% Romanian?. I don't think so ... Maybe before 1950-1960, but not anymore. --fz22 14:23, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

    Well, statistically it isn't, but the city hall is quite worked up over making sure that the city's heritage is proclaimed as multiethnic rather than as solely Romanian. For this reason, there are quite a lot of minority cultural events, and the city does have a multiethnic feel. Ronline ✉ 11:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] truth on population statistics

    I am not even Hungarian but feel that it is hugely misrepresentative to show the population statistics the way they are presented on the page. Temesvar is and always has been a German/Hungarian city, if you want to believe the Dacia Romanian theories you read in your Ceacescu history textbooks fine by me, but don't be afraid to say the city only took on this character after the Romanians ethnically cleansed it and moved in.

    There's a difference between who ruled that part of the contry and who was the majority, read the history, read about Banat on Wikipedia, see older statistics: for example in 1774 there were 2400 Hungarians and Bulgarians in all Banat. That has nothing to do with Ceauşescu who lived 200 years after. Numbers speak. --AdrianTM 06:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

    Remember taht the ruller of the town and whole region was Pál Kinizsi aka Paul Cheazul(Chinezul) back in 1479. He was quite romanian, and eaven cneaz wich mean that old romanian social organization such as districts were still in place in the banat region. Remember that austrians also made some ethinical cleasing, in their attempt to make a german only land north of Timis river. Whole romanian villages were deported south of the river.

    Cities in Romania often had German majorities because the Germans did not allow Romanians to live in the city proper, Brasov is a case in point. The Hungarians tended to dominate certain industries (though not as much as the Germans). The villages surrounding the cities were mostly ethnic Romanian. Under the communists, people from villages were encouraged to move to the cities as part of 'industrialisation'. This is where the large ethnic Romanian majority comes from, there was no ethnic cleansing. A lot of people in Timisoara are of mixed ancestry and tend not to show up in statistics as being a minority.GordyB 13:19, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] population statistics

    The hatred between romanians and hungarians was huge after 1848. Let this page be free of such bullshit. I removed the info about population statistics. It has no place here, and it is a lie. Plese use as references the archives of the Austrian or Ottoman Empire not hungarian or romanian sources written after 1848. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.24.22.66 (talk) 13:30, 19 March 2007 (UTC). For example Mathias Bel- hungarina historian who visited Timisoara sometime between 1720-1730 - wrote that the only language spoken in the town in that period was romanian - hic est ut nihil sermone valachico Temesvarini sit vulgatius . Why would a hungarian lie about this back in 1720? Let's agree that is hard to find an independent source of information, so please remove the whole section , since it may not be true.

    [edit] Persecution of Germans?

    Is not true that "many ethnic Germans left because of Communist persecution, most going to Germany". Ethnic Germans left TImişoara (and Romania) because in Germany it was a better life, not because they were persecuted. A short period of persecution was only immediatelly after WW2 (when ethnic Germans were considered nazis), but was over when German emigration started. Even in Comunist period, in Timişoara existed German schools, a German theatre, a German daily newspaper (after the fall of Comunism, the daily newspaper disappeared, as consequence of lack of readers and new Capitalist economic laws). --MariusM 10:59, 27 August 2006 (UTC) Remember that 45000 romanians were deported from the Banat region by the comunists in the same period. Don't confuse comunism with nazism. The comunists hated classes not rases. Also, is not true that the great drought of the 50's in Moldova was during the Ceauşescu era. Ceauşescu era started in 1965, when the drought was over. Resettling Romanians in Timişoara was a consequence of city development (population increased with a factor of 4 after WW1), not of the drought of 50's.--MariusM 11:11, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

    that's correct, also I think that most of the history part should be moved to History of Timisoara since this article is mainly about the city not the history. -- AdrianTM 12:12, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
    I corrected the article.--MariusM 13:48, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Zurobara

    Classical Balkans
    Classical Balkans

    Regarding "Zurobara", is this camp really near the location of present-day Timişoara? Because according to this map (pictured), Zurobara appears to be at the location of present-day Hódmezővásárhely. It would be nice if some sources could be provided—this info isn't even at the History of Timişoara article. —Khoikhoi 06:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] mall

    i tought the mall in timisoara was the largest in all romania, not just the west..

    I just checked on http://www.iuliusmall.com/timisoara/, it is the biggest in romania.
    Thanks! I'll add that to the article. —Khoikhoi 01:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Timişoara - feature article

    Timişoara should eventually reach feature article status. In order to do so we must first identify what the article lacks or where its quality should be improved. This should be a collaboration, and any contribution, either from experts in the subject or from laymen is needed and welcome. The Timişoara article from Wikipedia is probably the best source of information about the city found on the net. If it's not then it should be. Currently the Timişoara article is maybe a good article. Our efforts should be targeted onto making it a feature article. I can only hope that this goal will be reached as soon as possible. Tavilis 17:16, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Culture to Overview

    I've changed the Culture headline to Overview, because I think that article it's more about the city than its culture. I've extended it a bit, but it could be further extended. It would be nice if it were something about the arts and culture of our city (for example bands, artists, theaters, a.s.o.). Somebody could start it, maybe I'll write too of it later on. Till then I'll write about the architecture of the city. --Zsolt Dudás 15:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Transport

    The article should mention the massive disruptions of service in the public transportation field caused by Ciuhandu's endless "infrastructure renewals" that last years and only finish before local elections. And the abysmal state of the road network. AND the totally absurd one-ways, AND the even more absurd speed-bumps. In fact it shoud say in bold, "transportation (by any means) in timisoara SUCKS!". In an NPOV and objective way, of course. A little brown amongst all those shades of pink to reflect the situation in the field. --Tase 16:26, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] District, county

    You said that the data is relevant about the ethnicity of the region - yes but not the given town in 1910. This is relevant data when speaking about the population of the Banat or Temes county but why we should mention in the Temesvár article what kind of people lived Vrsec or Lippa or any other settlement kilometres away from the given town????

    And the Central District wasn't the municipal area of Temesvár, it was an administrative unit with 20 independent villages. The town wasn't even part of it. Zello 22:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

    It wasn't, but it is now, right? Then it's part of the history, you can't exclude that on the basis that it wasn't part of the municipal are at that time (if I got this right). -- AdrianTM 23:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

    No, it isn't part. Of the 20 villages of the former Central District only two is incorporated now into the town, 18 remained independent. Zello 23:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

    Even so, see what comments this demographic issue can provoke: Talk:Timişoara#truth on population statistics this is a very relevant issue in the context of demographic evolution of the city. -- AdrianTM 23:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

    These statistics even didn't prove your point as they show that the surrounding region was also ethnically mixed. Seeing the data the first thing I notice how many Germans disappeared not only from the town but also from the coutryside. Healthy demographic evolution in this area should produce a multicultural town with 3-4 different nationality. Zello 11:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

    Should? If you were a German and make $100 per month working hard in Romania and you can go in Germany where only the unemployment benefit is... I don't know... $1000 (don't actually know the number, but you get my idea), what would you do? It's a sad situation but hardly "ethnic cleansing". -- AdrianTM 15:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

    A whole people didn't go away only for money in a few decades without pressures. But the debate now is not about ethnic cleansing, I didn't use this word. We are speaking about why there is a mention of other settlements ethnic data in the Timişoara article. I said that this statistics aren't even proving your point as they show a multinational town in multinational surrounds. I'm simply saying that the Timişoara article should contain the population data of Timişoara, not neighbouring villages, Vrşec or Sydney. Zello 21:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

    Yet it's interesting that the Germans left even though I didn't hear of many tensions (if any) between Germans and Romanians while the majority of Hungarians remained (or less have left) even though it was much less distance to travel to Hungary than for Germans to move to Germany, that alone and it's pretty telling. But, as you said, it's kind of irrelevant in our discussion, I do think that it's relevant to keep the info about at least about municipal area, I wasn't the one who added and I think the person who added made the same point. I'm not sure about Sydney though ;-) -- AdrianTM 21:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
    "A whole people didn't go away only for money in a few decades without pressures." -- you also forget that at that time even Romanians were fleeing the country even risking to be shot at the border, if they could more than 80% would have left the country, Germans were the people who could leave, they didn't need any special encouragement. -- AdrianTM 21:50, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

    I wouldn't have any objection against the municipal area but Központi járás ISN'T that. That district means exactly these villages: Giarmata, Cerneteaz, Covaci, Sânandrei, Dudeştii Noi, Becicherecu Mic, Beregsǎu Mare, Sǎcǎlaz, Utvin, Sǎnmihaiu Romǎn, Sǎnmihaiu German, Chişoda, Giroc, Urseni, Moşniţa, Ghiroda, Remetea Mare, Şag, Parţa + three other now incorporated into the town. Does that mean anything for the 1910 Timişora?

    Panonian who added the data did the same with many other town recently. That's a misconception of the former administration of the Kingdom of Hungary. In present-day Serbia "municipal area" means a dozen villages subordinated to one bigger town but in Hungary or Romania (past and present) municipal areas are much smaller, clearly defined territories of the given town itself. Zello 22:28, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

    That sounds reasonable then... leave Központi járás out, keep municipal area in. -- AdrianTM 22:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Discrepancy in population

    In the introduction (and elsewhere in the article) it states that Timişoara had a population of 336,089 in 2006. However, in the box it states that Timşioara had a population of: 317,660 (2002 census)

    307,265 (as of July 1, 2004)

    Both 336,089 and 307,265 are sourced, so I presume both are accurate - they merely show change over time. However, they are in conflict, so I suggest that we remove the older results and put in the most recent statistics possible so as to make the article as accurate as possible.

    I'm new to Wikipedia, so I don't really know how to edit very well. Sorry to bother you all, otherwise I'd do it myself.


    [edit] Twin cities

    Is Zrenjanin, Serbia, twin town of Timisoara, Because link to official web site of Timisoara can be found at official web site of Zrenjanin? Alexzr88 17:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Just in: 3000 year old fort found

    Near the Romanian city of Timisoara a 3000 year old settlement with defences has been found. The complex covers 2000 hectare and archaeologists think it's the biggest excavation site of Europe.

    Not only the size of the find is striking, but also the quality. The settelment is completely intact. The researchers don't have any idea of who the builders of the fort might be yet.

    The discovery has been made using satellite imagery and Google Earth. For more investigation a lot of money is necessary, according to the researchers. The help of Unesco has already been enlisted for this.

    3000 jaar oude vesting ontdekt NOS, 20 februari 2008

    Shinobu (talk) 09:53, 20 February 2008 (UTC)