Talk:Timeline of the Iranian Islamic revolution

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Contents

[edit] dates

Should we make some of the most important dates in bold, such as Khomeini returning to Tehran, referendum on the constitution? --Leroy65X 21:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Speeches

Don't you think speech of June 5 and August 10 of 1979 isn't notable enough to put there.I mean there are too many speeches that we may think notable but when we gather numerous speeches they corrupt the timeline.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 08:18, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes there are many speeches, but these comments are very important. They show the begining of the breakup of the intellectuals and the "Khomeinists." It's an important part of the revolution. --Leroy65X 00:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Khomeini is/was the undisputed leader of the revolution. When he says "stay out of this," or "We will not tolerate them any more", that's news. That's an important part of the revolution.
I've shortened the quotes see if you like them better. I "uncovered" the June 5 date too. --Leroy65X 20:01, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
P.S. I corrected that mistake about the constitution. --Leroy65X 00:49, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we should set criteria about important speeches unless we have problems with them.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Leroy. It is very important --Rayis 12:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I guess we should set criteria, if we don't want to encounter numerous quotations. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:28, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] January 7 (17th of Dey 19) 1978

"January 7 (17th of Dey):Writing a libelous story attacking Khomeini in official newspaper"
What does that mean? The Pahlavi dynasty did that? Also it sounds like it must have been Khomeini who provoked this article to be written? --Rayis 19:57, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
We have more than a couple of citations indicating the government was behind it and that the story caused an enormous backlash by religious Iranians. --Leroy65X 00:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, what I meant is that why would a government all of a sudden do such a thing? there must have been a motive --Rayis 13:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
To make Khomeini, sworn enemy of the Shah, look bad. --Leroy65X 19:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, actually a verification of the references would be useful, e.g. where exactly in islamic revolution? --Rayis 13:26, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Pretty much any book on that period of Iranian history will say so. Modern Iran by Keddie, Khomeini by Moin, Spirit of Islam by Taheri, etc. --Leroy65X 19:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
That didn't answer my question. 1) Why would a government do this? what was the motive? should the motive not be mentioned, and 2) Iranchamber page has been used as a reference, where exactly on that page does it refer to this? If there are better sources, maybe they should be used instead --Rayis 19:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me, My dear friend. It's a time line and it's not appropriate place to write analysis and reasons of the events. People should refer to other articles to find them.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 05:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Er, you are excused. However, I am adding the POV tag because why this was done is not addressed. Until the timeline addresses why the regime was provoked to do such thing, the first item should not be the regime's reaction --Rayis 09:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
We can start from Reza Shah era. There are another articles for that reasons. I clarify this issue in the lead of the article. So I removed your tag.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 17:53, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Well at the moment according to the article, it looks like Khomeini started the Iranian revolution because a newspaper called him a homosexual --Rayis 17:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
From which event should the article be stated? However we can't add any reason in this article. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 07:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Why can we not? What is the reason that this event is so significant for the Islamic revolution? Is it generally seen as the trigger for the revolution? We can't just make a random list of events and call it timeline of Iranian revolution. This is completely biased and non-encyclopedic --Rayis 17:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The Jan 1978 riots are a natural starting point since they were the first major violent demonstrations of the revolution.
Nonetheless, how about we add a few dates from, say, the (1942?) invasion and overthrow of Reza Khan, mossedegh era, white revolution protests and exile, to give some background, some history on Khomeini's antipathy for the Shah. Sound good Rayis? (I've been working on this for months so I'm starting to lose my perspective.) --Leroy65X 19:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding why government officials do nonsensical things, I don't know why! What we know is: they still do it for example the serial murders of Saeed Emami. Iran claims Emami was an Israeli agent which can't be true. In this case the article was a starting point of the revolution, leading to widespread fame of Khomeini, and a starting point of the riots. regardless of reasons behind the article. That being said, the article may start from a different date as Leroy pointed out.--Gerash77 01:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Chi behet begam, ba pesare khub movafeqi. Aqa jan ma yek maqale asli darim ke tu lead ham be tore moshakhkhas behesh erja dade shode. Unja in bahsha tarh mishe. In maqale ruzshomare. Dalile hich ettefaqi ham qrar nist tush neveshte beshe. Masalan inke chera khomeini bazargan ra entekhab kard, chera motahhari terror shod va qeyre. Iranian revolution baraye hamin dorost shode ke in chizha ra tozih bede.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 04:01, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Hey, please assume good faith. I really mean that. I don't have a problem with the article, as long as there is a good reason why it is listed the way it is. Is generally, the article on top (regarding an official from Shah's government calling Khomeini a homosexual), seen as the foremost most important event that is known to have lead to the Iranian revolution? Do you have sources to verify this? If not, then I suggest you don't take this personally as I can tell that you have by the messages you have posted here and on my talk page, in Persian. Oh and please step back and let the tag be on the article until you bring the sources needed. --Rayis 10:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
You really misunderstood. I spoke in Persian because I think you can understand me better but I was wrong. Please go and tell that to anyone you'd like. I said you can offer another date as the beginning of the revolution but this article is a time line and it's not correct to write reasons and effects in the time line. Please propose another date or leave this debate. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 13:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Civil Wars

Timeline lists:

  • March 17 (27th of Esfand): Civil war in Sanandaj.[23]
  • April 17 (31th of Farvardin): Civil war in Naqadeh.[25]
  • August 15(?th of Mordad): Civil war in Paveh.

Two Points:

  • who was fighting? Leftist guerillas? Local federalists? there should be more information.
  • should it be called a civil war? In English its customary to say something like "Fighting erupted in ..." A civil war has to be really serious fighting like in USA 1861-5, Russia 1919, or Lebanon 1982-89. The Iranian government crushed seperatists and guerillas quite effectively. --Leroy65X 00:43, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
We can say revolt or clash instead of civil war. What do you suggest?--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Either would be ok. so would "Fighting erupted in ..." --Leroy65X 20:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Martyr

Maybe I am not familiar with the terminology of "Martyrdom" as much as I should be, but I believe that on Wikipedia there is a neutrality policy (WP:NPOV), I fail to see how if a protester is killed, he should be called a "martyr", and why they should be addressed as such on Wikipedia --Rayis 10:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I've replaced it appropriately. The Behnam 17:59, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed introductory dates for timeline

[edit] 1941

  • August September : World War II allies Britian and Russia invade Iran to secure railway to supply Russia. They depose Reza Shah who they consider too sympathetic to the Axis powers and replace him with his son Muhammad Reza Pahlavi. [1]

[edit] 1953

  • August: Crown Prince Muhammad Reza Pahlavi attempts coup against very popular, nationalist radical prime minister Mohammed Mossadeq. Coup fails and Shah flees to Italy. CIA and British intelligence organize "Operation Ajax" with conservative Iranians to overthrow Mossadeq. Shah returns to Iran. [2]
I think this one can be made more neutral. --Rayis 11:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
This has been listed as problematic since 12 April 2007. Can you give further justification for the passage as it stands being NPOV? If not, we should remove the notice.Erik.w.davis (talk) 02:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 1962

  • October November: Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini organizes opposition to the Shah's Local council election bill. Bill introduced by Shah's government allows women to vote for the first time and non-Muslims to run for councils. Religious pressure forces government to back down completely and abandon the bill. Khomeini emerges from fight as "the regime's principal political foe" and "undisputed spiritual leader of ... bazaari activists." [3]

[edit] 1963

  • Shah's "White Revolution". Shah government introduces six-point reform bill, aka the White Revolution, to be put to a nation-wide referendum vote. Six points also include include women's suffrage, as well as other reforms, and again religious opposition is led by Khomeini. Escalating antipathy between Shah and Ayatollah climaxes in June with a denunciation of Shah by Khomeini as a "miserable wretch," the arrest of Khomeini two days later, and major protest riots in cities over Iran the day after that. Marital law is declared and 100s are killed.[4]

[edit] 1964

  • Khomeini is released from custody in April. Denounces "capitulations," i.e. the government's underhanded extending of diplomatic immunity to American military personnel, that autumn, and is then exiled in November. Does not return to Iran for 14 years.[5]
I agree with your proposal to settle down the dispution if we write more events including death of Shari'ati and Mostafa Khomeini in 1977, compilation of "Velayat Faqih" and some other events.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 03:11, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll post this and you add some more (death of Shari'ati and Mostafa Khomeini in 1977, compilation of "Velayat Faqih") —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leroy65X (talk • contribs) 16:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Timeline of the Iranian Islamic revolution

This title would be more precise and would stop the confusion with the Iranian Constitutional Revolution, which we can make a timeline for later. What do you think? Cheers, --Rayis 11:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Arbayeen

Why did you(Rayis) remove some of notable events like February 18 and March 29? You could ask Leroy to add more sources.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

That could be my mis understanding of Arbayeen, that article suggests it's a shia festival 40 days after a specific holy event. Now being Iranian I am not completely unaware that unofficially 40 days after anyone's death is acknowledged but I never thought it's that notable and certainly not notable on such scale, if it was sourced that it was hailed so highly then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but it had the {{Fact}} tag for a month and nothing was provided. So those are the reasons why I removed it. --Rayis 14:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
This events are too important because they've made demonstrations like a chain of protest in all part of the Iran:
  • February 18, Qom
  • February 18, Tabriz
  • March 29, Yazd
  • May 10, Qom
  • June 20, End of this round of chain demonstrations.

The next round begins in August 12 in Isfahan. But this time there are closer to each other.

  • August 12, Isfahan
  • September 4, Tehran, Eid Fetr
  • September 8, Tehran, Black friday

Then we encounter with strikes in the newspapers, oil industry, banks, schools and etc.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:33, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

How exactly have you addressed my concerns? Look, I want to know if there are sources that specifically back up this claim that the follow up to these demonstrations were indeed because of "Arbayeen"? Currently the article on Arbayeen does not say it is "Arbayeen" 40 days after death of just anybody --Rayis 15:28, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Let me quote you from an author (an Iranian) of a (not terribly complimentary) book on Khomeini, talking about the demos that followed one after another in 1978:
In the clash with the security forces in Qom, at least 6 demonstrators were killed. The deaths unleashed powerful emotions. ... This episode was a godsend for those who wanted to raise the political temperature: the Shah had inadvertently come to their aid. An unstoppable chain reaction began, based on the Muslim cycle of mourning on the seventh and fortieth day after a death. Tabriz was the next city to witness disturbances on the 40th day after the Qom killing and there were further deaths. Then it was the turn of Yazd to rise on the 40th day of the Tabriz shootings. The Shah was, as usual, compared with the hated Yazid. ... [Baqer Moin, Khomeini, Life of the Ayatollah. p.186-7 (italics added)]
So I hope you will agree that the arbayeen were VERY important to the Iranian Rev. -- Your friend :-) Leroy65X 16:50, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Yeah that clears that one up although the Arbayeen article may need fixing --Rayis 17:02, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I just had to go through every single of what was claimed that is from here and much of it was false and not mentioned there. Vakilian I suggest you check next time so it would stop wasting time. Regards, --Rayis 15:42, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


Furthermore I am going to remove fsmitha as a source because he is describing the events descriptively, but who is he? It's done by a mature student graduate [1] who is hardly a scholar in this field. There are books written on this revolution who are more reliable than this website, surely. --Rayis 15:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
My dear friend(if it doesn't bother you that I called you a friend) I have a problem with your edition. When you remove <ref name="islamic_revolution"> then all of the later links<ref name="islamic_revolution"/> which refer to that page will die. Please be careful.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 04:27, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me. I should be more careful because you didn't make mistake.[2]--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 04:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation

Is "source of imitation " is a good translation for "Marja-e Taqlid"?--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 12:22, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

If it isn't, change it. --Rayis 12:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
In fact it has an article Marja --Rayis 12:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Let Zereshk tell us his idea. --Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:29, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Sure. Mushallah meske marja ziyad hast to khodeh hamin Wikipedia :) --Rayis 15:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Vallah I tried looking at Nasr's books to see what phrase he uses. I didnt find much. So for the time being, I guess "source of imitation" is OK until I come across an optimal phrase.--Zereshk 00:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotations' criteria

Because there are numerous quotation we should set criteria to prevent making a wikiquote article. This is my proposal:

  1. Just we write quotations of Mohammad Reza and Khomeini.

Feel free to add some other criteria.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 14:32, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Please include any reasons for your criteria. I disagree with that so far, the Iranian revolution wasn't simply a fight between Shah and Khomeini, a lot of those "martys" were political students from a range of political ideologies and backgrounds from left, right or whatever. --Rayis 14:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
You mean we should narrate quotations from them?--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 17:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
If they are important, sure, if not, no. But we don't need a "criteria" to prevent it --Rayis 18:16, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
OK. But I'm sure we will reach 100kb by adding too many information and then we set criteria.--Sa.vakilian(t-c) 09:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC)