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I see no reason to distinguish any "date' before 776 BC from mythology; and propose to move the Early archaic dates accordingly.

Along the same lines, is there any reason to believe Pausanias's history of the first Messenian war is not a Hellenistic figment? Septentrionalis 21:32, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What a load of utter nonsense. All the dates between 1103 BC and 776 BC are valid historical dates and are given in Jerome's Chronicon and by Diodorus. They are not mythology but historical fact which is corroborated archaeologically. They are not Hellenistic inventions and the very idea that they might be is so ridiculous that it is unbelivable. There is no corroboration from any ancient sources whatsoever that the dates from 1103 BC downwards are anything but recorded history so I do not understand where you would get such an idiotic idea from.

If you don't like Pausanius account and dating of the first Messenian War then that's your problem. Since it falls within the Olympiads the only reason I can think of why you don't want it published is because of your own personal prejudice.

It not up to you do decide for other people what history they should believe but for them to make up their own minds after they have seen the unadulterated facts. --Argyrosargyrou 00:22, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I never said I didn't like Pausanias IV; it's one of the more charming Hellenistic novels, with almost as much unity of action as Daphnis and Chloe. I merely asked if there has been any evidence that it derives from pre-existing Messenian tradition or history; thank you for confirming my understanding that it does not.

I do strongly suggest making the line between this article and the myth article the Lelantine war, with a mention of the first Olympiad - otherwise one will suggest to the casual browser that 940 for Homer is as strongly confirmed as 403 for Socrates, which will tend to mislead. This would not remove anything, only move it from one article to another. Septentrionalis 02:05, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I suggest you read Plutarch's biography of Lycurgus for the dating of Homer a generation before the reign of Charillus at Sparta. Since the majority of the chronology from 1103 BC to 650 BC is that of Sparta and how it conquered its neighbours it only makes sense to use the Spratan date for Homer which is the middle date given by Jerome in his Chronicon (which I suggest you read) and whcih is also given by Tatian.

If you deny that the Spartan kings existed and claim there wasn't a Messenian War then you are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. You might as well claim that World War 2 never occurred and astronauts did not land on the moon and we were made to believe all this because of some great international conspircy. Oh please don't tell me that the Messenian and the Spartans made it all up and they did this in league with the Argives and Arcadians.

This is a page about HISTORY and history is what is WRITTEN DOWN in words by Historians. Now since there is NOT ONE historian from the past who denies the existence of the Spartan kings or any of their acts there is no basis to question their existence. Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon, Diodorus, Plutarch, Pausanius, Strabo, Eusebius and Jerome all say the same thing and agree with each other on the facts. All the archaeological evidence proves that the Dorians migrated to the Peloponnesus in around 1100 BC. It proves that the Ionian migration to Asia-Minor and depopulation of the Greek peninsula took place in around 1050 BC. It proves that Messenia, Sparta, Tegea and Athens all existed during this period and were inhabited be the people who they were supposed to be inhabited by, and that trade occurred between them and Asia-Minor and Italy and Cyprus. --Argyrosargyrou 01:33, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Even if I go with that dating of Homer, and do not (for example) place him contemporary with Hesiod, as the Contest of Homer and Hesiod would require, the dating by the Spartan kings has a noticeable margin of error built into the method. Homer's date should therefore be in a different article from dates we know to the year, sometimes the day, like the death of Socrates. Septentrionalis 01:50, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Its in the same category as Jerome's dating for Empedocles, Parmenides, Heraclitus, Xenophon, Eudoxus and others. Its the time during which he was supposed to be well known. Even if you did not have a historical record of when he lived you would still have to put Homer before Hesiod by language alone, and in at least 900 BC since the Greek he uses is midway between Mycenaean and the Greek of Herodotus and there are indications from the rhythm that certain Homeric words that are even older were removed by later copyists. --Argyrosargyrou 04:02, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Hippias' Death?!

This page has Hippias dying prior to 490bc. Wasn't Hippias present at the battle of Marathon?! What's up?! Adenosine 22:12, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

What the...? Apparently Archimedes marries Abe Lincoln??? Look at the bottom of the page...

Also date error on Democritus (about 460- not 330??)

[edit] Cleanup

• All the Pythagoras stuff is off kilter, I don't know his dates, but the ones here are out of order and out of the formatting norm. Carlossuarez46 20:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

• Removed vandalism "Alexander is done smokin weed at the party" and "Alexander has sex with mary lou" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.195.113.194 (talk) 03:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)