Talk:Timeline of alternative rock

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Contents 1 Alternative artists only 2 Punk bands 3 White Stripes 4 Weezer 5 Simple Minds 6 Reducing minor details 7 Compilations 8 Glaring Omissions 9 Graphical timelines 10 What the hell are you doing? 11 Manchester bands 12 Matthew Sweet? 13 what is considered a "breakthrough" album 14 Too Much no alternative artist & albums. 15 Joy Division? 16 Camera Obscura?

[edit] Alternative artists only

When editing this article it is worth taking into consideration what bands are and are not alternative. Some recent edits added in bands that do not belong in this article, a problem the List of alternative rock bands article is also suffering from. Please try to use discretion in adding artists who are from genres that are not subgenres of alternative (for instance, Massive Attack is trip-hop, not alternative). It would be pointless to just add in any band to this article. -- LGagnon 20:41, Oct 28, 2004 (UTC)

Agreed

[edit] Punk bands

Do we really need to add punk bands to this article? There's already a punk timeline; they can be added there. -- LGagnon 01:00, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] White Stripes

I'm not so sure the White Stripes belong on this list. I don't see how they fit in the category of alternative. -- LGagnon 18:06, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

Same goes for The Strokes. -- LGagnon 18:59, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

They're not punk actually, according to allmusic.com. -- Mike Garcia | talk 00:24, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Weezer

The albums an everything had to be removed because there are tons of sources telling me they are punk. -- Mike Garcia | talk 00:33, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Their music doesn't really sound like any conventional punk genre, pop-punk or otherwise. Sure, Pinkerton has had a massive influence on modern emo, but that's just one album; modern emo is sometimes considered alternative instead of punk rock on occasion anyways. Weezer is primarily influenced by Nirvana, the Pixies, the Cars, and Green Day; they're closer to power-pop via alt-rock if anything. AMG lists them as alternative and pop-punk; Wikipedia list files their albums under alternative and the band is considered post-grunge. Their MySpace page labels them "Alternative/Emo/Indie". Hell, this article from MTV considers them indie rock. Things get even muddier when you consider Rivers Cuomo comes from a metal background which he still acknowledges.

They might be considered punk, but they are also widely considered an alt-rock band (apparently even by the band themselves). WesleyDodds 05:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simple Minds

I'm sorry, but if Simple Minds are considered an 'alternative' band, somebody ought to set up an 'alternative' to the alternative or else we should all pack up and go home an listen to classical music or whatever. There are also too many other artists that wouldn't really be considered. -- 195.93.21.4 18:29, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Certainly in their later incarnations, roughly 1982 onwards, they were not an 'alternative' band by any stretch of the imagination, but prior to that their first four albums were. Possibly not as self destructive as contemporaries such as Magazine, their change in direction probably came from not being able to pay the (heating) bills. U2 is on the list after all. --Friedfish 18:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reducing minor details

I'm thinking that maybe we should decrease the amount of minor events from this article. Namely, we have too many unimportant albums on the list, and we might be better off removing albums that were either not very important or not popular enough to be noteworthy. The article is rather huge now, and a bit of tightening up might do some good. -- LGagnon 19:58, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Compilations

Do we really need to include best-of compilations on this list? WesleyDodds 10:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Only if they are major events (such as Nirvana's box set, which became the best selling box set of all time). Otherwise we can do without them. -- LGagnon 15:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I can agree with a box set of largely-unreleased material, and with b-sides comps like Incesticide and Pisces Iscariot, but I think best-of/greatest hits collections are pushing it when we can better use the space for proper albums and EPs. Because if the something like the Nirvana and Pixies best-ofs are there, I might as well add New Order's Substance which in the long run has been arguably more important. WesleyDodds 02:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Glaring Omissions

This timeline ignores most of the philosophical and musical influences on what you'll today find lumped in as alternative (sic) rock. All of the pop based stuff (Beatles, Beach Boys) that's went into it (If you're going to include the Shins and Belle & Sebastian as alternative rock, you cannot not mention them) isn't here, and neither is that little band called the Velevt Underground. This really isn't useful to anyone, as it neither explains the evolution for people who are curious nor enumerates specifics for those looking more in-depth. It may seem that complaining about the lack of Beatles and VU references is fairly shallow criticism, but I figured even getting into Gang of Four and the like might be a little too far to push from what we have now. -- 70.20.14.28

If we included all influences, this would be a timeline of rock music, not alternative. There's no need to list every influence outside of the genre here, or even any influence outside of it. -- LGagnon 01:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

In addition, this article is merely a timeline. Its goal is not to explain the the evolution of alternative rock, just chart its development and seminal bands/events as a brief primer. WesleyDodds 13:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Bands such as the Beatles and The Beach Boys were/are mainstream rock bands. They have have had an influence on a wide variety of musical genres. While these bands have influenced alternative music, this influence is not specific enough to validate including them in a timeline of alternative music. The Velvet Underground is a different case entirely. I would propose that inclusion of perhaps just the band's debut from '67 is very relevant. This one album layed more ground-work and had more of an influence on this entire genre than ANY other album inside or outside alternative music in the 40 years since its release. 220.253.130.115 11:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Graphical timelines

For you ambitious sorts, I found this [1] it would be sweet if something graphic could be incorporated into the article. maxcap 16:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

That'd be intersting, but I don't see what function it would serve. We have too many variables on this timeline to make it easy for such a graphic to be incorporated. -- LGagnon 18:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't thinking it would be as detailed as the article, just key points of interest. Deciding on those key points is probably troublesome though. As far as the function it would serve: Looking cool. maxcap 19:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

It certainly works for individual genre pages, like shoegazing and the one that was made for grunge recently. There used to be one for Britpop, too, but that got chucked a while back. WesleyDodds 01:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What the hell are you doing?

In this section, I put down U2's Boy, October, and War albums as important albums. If U2 is alternative, why are you deleting their albums from this timeline?--Mr. Brain 16:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Please remain civil. There's no need to use such agressive language here. -- LGagnon 22:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

They're important albums, but they're not alternative rock albums. U2 stylistically is more identifiable as a post-punk band rather than an alternative band (and I really don't get why they're considered alt-rock by some people, but that's neither here nor there). U2's early work is assuredly post-punk, heavily influenced by Joy Division and Television. It'd be like including Husker Du's hardcore albums or The Cure's New Wave phases on this timeline, because they weren't alternative rock at those times. WesleyDodds 08:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, all right. I'm sorry about my language. I'm just trying to make contributions, that's all.--Mr. Brain 13:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Manchester bands

Hello, I came here from this, and what it says about the formation of the Stone Roses & Happy Mondays in particular is at odds with what is listed here. I'm inclined to trust the other article given general knowledge, so is it time this was refreshed a little? --82.15.46.131 23:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Allmusic.com contradicts the Madchester article. In particular that Happy Mondays date is way off; there's no way they formed the band that early. The appropriate formation dtaes for both bands seems to be 1985. WesleyDodds 02:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Matthew Sweet?

Where is Matthew Sweet?

Also, as I am sure you are aware, "alternative" was an idea or value and not so much a "sound." Punk was seen, in the mainstream, as a "fad" of the late '70s and early '80s, however, when that died down "college rock","underground", and "alternative" were all terms used to describe rock-oriented music styles not heard on the radio. Ahuimanu 13:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Sure alternative is defined largely as a concept, but it does consist of clearly-definable subgenres (grunge, Britpop, goth, etc.).

And you can always add the Matthew Sweet albums to the timeline. WesleyDodds 23:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] what is considered a "breakthrough" album

I just added two "(breakthrough)" Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots and Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. I was wondering what is considered the standard for a breakthough? Does the album have to chart to a certain point (#20 or higher?, #40 or higher?), a first Gold album? Platinum?

I added breakthrough to those albums cause they were the first Gold albums by each band, and the measure of their new popularity is gauged by how high their subsequent albums charted (#8 for A Ghost is Born, and #11 for At War with the Mystics), as exampled by Soundgarden's Badmotorfinger given a "(breakthrough)", while charting #39, the follow-up Superunknown debuted at #1, if that isn't enough criteria to make them a breakthrough album, then the high charting success of At War with the Mystics and A Ghost Is Born would make them the breakthrough

Take Sonic Youth for example, they made their impact with Daydream Nation, but it wasn't a wide audience, Goo charted at #96, Dirty at #83, then Jet Set at #34, which one would it be if they are even considered a breakthrough band at all?

so what is the bench mark and definition?

--Pantophobia 06:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Primarily sales breakthrough that increase a band's presence. The two best examples are R.E.M. and Nirvana. Both were underground presences and were undoubtedly important figures for alternative rock, but it was Document and Nevermind that brought them out of the underground to a bigger audience and made them important to the larger rock music sphere and the mainstream. Personally I try to use the tag for clear-cut, seminal examples like that. For a band like the Cure, it's harder to ascertain even before getting into the topic of "big in America" or "big in the UK". Basically if there's a huge leap in sales between records, or if a record yields a popular single that dwarfs what a band did before, then it's a breakthrough. WesleyDodds 08:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I took out breakthroughs because if they're there to show breakthroughs for the band it has little to do with a timeline for "Alternative Rock". If you want to see whether or not an album is a breakthrough for a band, you should go to the band's page or the album's page. Adding (breakthrough) next to an album is misleading and just looks like clutter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.198.28.214 (talk) 00:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It's quite relevant to the timeline. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Too Much no alternative artist & albums.

I think this page need a big clean up. There too much Punk, New-Wave & Gothic-rock artist and albums on this page. I think there should be a roots of alternative rock part. And there rest of the page should only have information about alternative rock. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.10.85.218 (talk)213.10.85.218 10:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC) 16:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC).

Albums by punk and New wave artists are only listed when they became alt-rock, and goth is an alternative rock subgenre. WesleyDodds 18:34, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Joy Division?

Maybe it's just me, but i think joy division should be included in the '1976' section. I mean they did kinda change rock music forever.

They aren't an alternative rock band. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:03, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Camera Obscura?

Why is such an unknown band on the timeline? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.94.235.53 (talk) 19:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)