Talk:Tilde

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Contents

[edit] Emacs first

I suspect that Emacs first used the ~ suffix when creating backup files and the GNU fileutils shell commands followed this usage. --Kop 18:55, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Tilda

Realizing today that I have spelled Tilde incorrectly for quite some time, I wonder if this page could use a statement on it, or if the redirect I created will be enough.

Dunno, maybe as an aside you could mention that tilde is not a very phonetic spelling when talking about, for example, the etimology of the word and wherever it may originally come from. --69.212.103.184 02:26, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I noticed that Tilda redirects here. Shouldn't it go to Tilda_(software)? Sasabune 11:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other wavy characters

There's a part in the article that bugs me - it states that the usage of tilde to show interval (e.g. 7~11) is a "Japanese and other Asian Languages" thing. However I think it would be more likely that there are some Asian countries that don't do this, some non-Asian countries that do this, and/or some countries that have more than one way of indicating a numerical interval. Anyone care to comment on this usage phenomenon? (Funny how this interval usage isn't mentioned in the Japanese version of Wikipedia as of now, nor in 大辞林辞典 at dictionary.goo.ne.jp either.) --69.212.103.184 02:26, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Update: it seems like the Japanese usage of the wavy line to indicate interval is actually called a "wave dash" instead of tilde. There's also a common comfusion with a wavy overline character that appears in Shift-JIS in place of the ASCII tilde character. Maybe the interval usage isn't a tilde but a character that only happens to look like a tilde. Maybe a subsection called "characters that look like the tilde" could be made. --69.212.103.184 02:39, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In English, there's the "swung dash", too. There difference between the swung dash, tilde, and tilde operator aren't really obvious, either. Personally, tildes are things that go over Ns, and anything else is probably derived from the swung dash. I think we'll need some typographer if we want to know the difference, though. Elektron 18:07, 2004 Nov 1 (UTC)

The names list is far, far too concise. The wave dash looks rather like a tilde. The wavy dash is extended a bit and looks like a W. The wavy line is the vertical form, and looks vaguely like a 3. But apparently, the wave dash is changing to the fullwidth tilde (why don't they just call them equal?).

301C    WAVE DASH
@+              * This character was encoded to match JIS C 6226-1978 1-33 "wave dash". Subsequent revisions of the
 JIS standard and industry practice have settled on JIS 1-33 as being the fullwidth tilde character.
        x (wavy dash - 3030)
        x (fullwidth tilde - FF5E)

3030    WAVY DASH
        x (wavy line - 2307)
        x (wave dash - 301C)

2307    WAVY LINE
        x (wavy dash - 3030)

Elektron 18:20, 2004 Nov 1 (UTC)

Spanish speakers use the word tilde to refer not to the squiggle at the top of (Ñ), but rather to the short stroke above a vowel that in English is called an "accent". A tilde diacrítico, or "diacritic tilde", is an accent whose function is to semantically distinguish two distinct words whose spellings and often pronunciations are the same. For example, in Spanish, "el" is the masculine definite article ("el tecolote" = the owl (Mexico)), but "él" is the masculine personal pronoun ("Él no tiene dientes" = He has no teeth).

I'd like to hear from a linguist on how "tilde" came to be associated with "swung dash" in English, but "accent" in Spanish. Also, I'd like to know how Spanish distinguishes between "tilde" and "acento"--is the first the mark, and the second its effect? Or what?

[edit] Pronunc

I have a problem with this: 'pronounced "TILL-duh" (IPA /'tɪldə/) or "TILL-day".' The IPA transcription clearly shows a schwa on the end of the word. That would indicate that it's pronounced 'TILL-duh', like the name 'Tilda'. What's more, MSN's Encarta dictionary has the 'TILL-duh' pron.

[edit] Swung dash problem

Under Firefox on Mandriva Linux 2005LE, Monobook skin with default font, it shows just as a box. ~~ N (t/c) 23:13, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

That would be a problem with your system not having an appropriate font with that character in it. IceKarmaॐ 23:30, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tilde in Portuguese

The entry claimed that Port. "ão" was pronounced as "ow" in [English] "cow". This is not the case, at least in standard Portuguese (both European and Brazilian). The "ow" in "cow" is more like a Portuguese "au", which it isn't even a nasal diphthong. Even if we disregard nasalization, the vowel in "cow" is an "á", not an "â", as it should be. 16 Nov. 2005.


I've deleted the following:

'The diphtongs "ãe", "ão" and "õe" are completely nasal - "ão" is pronounced like the english word own.' I'm not sure what the phrase 'completely nasal' means, and it seems superfluous, in any case. This article is not about the phonology of Portuguese. It's about the use of a particular diacritic.

The second statement, that '"ão" is pronounced like the english word own', is only (approximately) true if one disregards nasalization, which is the whole point of the tilde in Portuguese, and the fact that there is no n sound at the end of Portuguese ão. It can mislead foreigners learning Portuguese into thinking that 'ão' is pronounced just like 'own', which is not true. 22 Dec. 2005.

[edit] Pattern match operator

The entry mentions that perl uses the operator =~ and !~ for pattern matching. I'd like to note that awk uses ~ and !~ for the same purpose, so I guess that's where the perl syntax originates from. – B jonas 20:09, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish keyboard

A rather complete explanation on how to get a tilde in Spanish keyboards can be found at es:Wikipedia:FAQ#¿Y cómo hago para escribir la tilde en el teclado? No la veo por ningún lado.... --cesarb 21:33, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Google and tilde

The entry about Google needs clarification. I cannot get it to work, e.g., searching with ~horse does not work. - fnielsen 11:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use on Wikipedia

Should there be something here about the uses of tilde on Wikipedia? I mean, to sign & datestamp comments and the like. I know there are guide pages for that kind of information, yet some people do find their way to this page seeking that information. And the page already discusses some fairly specific applications of the tilde. - JRtx 00:25, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

No self-references. —Nightstallion (?) 19:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Usually lengthened

What does "(usually lengthened to ⁓)" mean? I don't get it. --Grouse 07:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect there is a display bug with that symbol. On my screen, it shows up as a fat, vertical line (similar to a boldfaced l. Is that how it is supposed to look? It certainly looks nothing like a tilde. SpectrumDT 21:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Shows up as a larger tilde to me (similar to the one used in East Asian language encodings.) -Seventh Holy Scripture 21:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Internet usage of the tilduh

I always thought that a ~ at the end of a sentence meant it was sung, e.g. "Pick up the receiver, get indian tick fever~!" I suppose this can mesh with the two usages given (emphasis and extension of the syllable)... :/ Vitriol 12:34, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It's also used when indicating sarcasm, for example, "I had relations with your mother last night." (Denoting an actual insult) versus "I had relations with your mother last night~" (denoting a sarcastic tone, jovial ribbing between friends, etc.)

It is also used as extension of a word, without adding an excessive amount of letters to it. For example, instead of, "Okayyyyyyyyy", you would write, "Okay~". That would probably tie in with the previous commment, as the use of sarcasm usually entails a longer pronunciation of the end of the word.

[edit]  !

This symbol is cool and I never knew what it was called until now!! Now I'll use it to sogn!! [something I never knew b4 either!!] Realg187 18:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nasalization in IPA

"In the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA). For example, [ljɔ̃] is the transcription of the pronunciation of the word 'Lyon' in French."

Is the tilde placed after the nasalized vowel in IPA (as shown above), or above it (as in Portuguese)? It would seem that placing the tilde above the vowel would make the most sense, since it affects how the vowel is pronounced rather than indicating a separate sound that follows (which is the whole point behind using a tilde rather than writing an n or other letter); however, there may not be a way to place a tilde above some vowel symbols. 207.69.139.145 16:53, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Used to denote a vector value

A tilde is also used in mathematics and physics to detonte a vector value or expression eg x with a tilde above is a vector with a specified direction and magnitude. |x| with a tilde above is designed to show the vector direction with a unit (1) magnitude. This is used to calculate dirrection.[vector (spatial)] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spgoo1 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

Spgoo1 01:42, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Approximation

I could be totally wrong here, but I thought the tilde could also be used to mark something as an approximation. In this usage, the answer to "how many people were there?" could be shortened from "between four and six" or "about five" to "~five" or "~5". Or Pi is equal to ~3.14.

Like I said, I'm probably totally off. Is there another punctuation mark for this that may have gotten confused with the tilde somewhere along the line?

Macbis 20:22, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I think this is the swung dash again, as it is placed in a central position vertically (as opposed to the tilde, which is raised) but possibly it has another name. I don't know what that might be. Approximation symbol, perhaps, at a guess? — Paul G 09:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
You're thinking of two of them on top of each other, a cross between ~ and = which I don't know how to make on the computer. Kuronue | Talk 05:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Why are such narrow transcriptions given for the pronunciation? I think this is quite unnecessary, and pretty much incomprehensible to the average reader. What is wrong with the broad transcription [ˈtɪldə], which is what is found in just about any dictionary that uses IPA? — Paul G 09:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ~ Redirect

As I didn't know the spelling for this symbol, I tried searching for ~ using the wiki search bar and I got nothing. Could someone put in a redirect?--Waxsin 16:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ~!

I've also seen the tilde be used like ~! that (like, I really love wikipedia~!. Can anyone add what that means?72.211.130.123 09:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)sierraa

[edit] Ugly table

Isn't there a standard when it comes to tables like the ones on the bottom of this article? That's one ugly table. --Eikern (talk) 09:04, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it entirely. It's not adding anything to the article which couldn't be obtained by, like, looking at the keyboard. Chris Cunningham (talk) 10:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I disagree on whether it’s adding much: I find such things in Wikipedia immensely useful and am sure others do too. Unencyclopedic or otherwise, information of this sort makes Wikipedia better than traditional encyclopedias, and I see no reason to be bound by their weaknesses as well as their strengths. This “unencyclopedic” facet of Wikipedia is one of those that, in my opinion, makes up for the shortcomings of traditional ones.

If the problem is ugliness, then wouldn't figuring out a way to make it look better be a more positive contribution that just zapping it? Regards, Jim_Lockhart (talk) 14:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
But it's pointless prescription of a subject which is completely disinteresting from a factual point of view. The article on sandwiches doesn't describe the process of making a prawn sandwich, although this is undoubtedly also an area in which Wikipedia would be a pioneer in the realm of encyclopaedias.
Just a random handful of problems:
  1. The subject is trivial and self-evident. Keyboards generally have the symbols, like, printed on top of them, so it's nothing new to users who need the information, and it's of no use to anyone else.
  2. The collection is arbitrary and indiscriminate. There are hundreds of different keymaps.
  3. The section is prescriptive; it offers advice and instructions. This is not appropriate for an encyclopedia.
  4. The lack of such a section on other articles on symbols found on keyboards makes Wikipedia inconsistent. Why do other keyboard symbols not have such tables on their articles? Is the tilde special in some way?
  5. It's huge and ugly. This, sadly, is the least of its problems.
"unencyclopedic or otherwise" is a red flag. Wikipedia is not a random collection of things which people might find helpful. it is not meant to be a repository of the sum of all human knowledge (etymological nitpicking concerning the word "encyclopedia" notwithstanding). making it pretty would not make it appropriate. it should go. Chris Cunningham (talk) 14:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
The chart describes how the keyboard works regarding to the tilde and that is encyclopedic, and there's similar kind of information on pages about some special keys. The keyboard does not tell you that about the tilde, only with some keyboards it's so simple that it practically does, but with some others it's too complicated especially for those who are unfamiliar with computers. In that way the tilde is different from many other symbols which are printed on keyboards. Best regards Rhanyeia♥♫ 13:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] P with tilde

I noticed a reference to "P with tilde" under "See Also" and wondered why the use of 'P with tilde' is not included in section 'Diacritical use' under 'Languages and alphabets that use the tilde for other purposes'? Since Wikipedia article "P with tilde" states:

It is or was used as a grapheme in some languages of Vanuatu, such as North Efate, South Efate and Namakura, to represent a voiceless labial-velar stop (IPA: /k͡p/). The letter was introduced by missionaries and has been in use for over a hundred years. In Bislama, the lingua franca of Vanuatu, p with tilde is called snekpi, "snake-P".

FriendlyDutch (talk) 10:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Swung dash as punctuation?

The article claims in the Punctuation section that the swung dash is sometimes used in English to indicate ranges instead of an en-dash. I’ve read lots of style and typography manuals in my time and never seen any that recommended this usage. I know that people use swung dashes for this purpose in handwritten English, but have never seen it in professionally typeset English material, so I think this statement needs to be substantiated with a citation as per WP:ATT or removed. Opinions? Jim_Lockhart (talk) 12:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use in logic and math

"In written mathematical logic, it represents negation (e.g. "~p" equals "not p".) Modern use has been replacing the tilde with the exclamation mark (!) for this purpose, to avoid confusion with equivalence relations."

Doesn't use of the exclamation mark, at least in mathematical discussions, potentially lead to another problem, since an exclamation mark placed after a number means the product of that number and all positive integers less than it? (E.g., 4! (read "four factorial")=4*3*2*1=24) 66.234.220.195 (talk) 07:14, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

An exclamation point before a symbol is notation, after is factorial.
BTW, I thought the tilde was only used for negation as a substitute for ¬ when the proper negation symbol is unavailable. Is this true? — Gwalla | Talk 15:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Trury ugly table

I think someone could make a nicer table. This has just gray colors. I can't think of a better color, maybe someone else could. --Bochkov (talk) 01:22, 25 April 2008 (UTC)