Talk:Tikal the Echidna

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Tikal the Echidna was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: July 2, 2006

This article is a former featured article candidate. Please view its sub-page to see why the nomination did not succeed. For older candidates, please check the Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations.

This article had a VG peer review that has been archived by the WikiProject video games. It may contain ideas that you can use to improve this article.

Tikal the Echidna has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Tikal the Echidna has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Contents 1 old comments 2 Pictures 3 Quotes 4 2-Player 5 Fanfiction? That's not Encyclopaedic! 6 Abilities 7 Gif 8 Japanese 9 References 10 Good article 11 Love life 12 GA Notes 13 GA: sorry, no 14 Failed GA Nomination 15 Hint Orb? 16 Deceased? 17 Tikal, no more.... 18 The birth of Knuckles the echidna 19 Tikal's Weight 20 WHY?

[edit] old comments

Ehehe...might I suggest we edit the height? I have no problem believing her "glowing ball" form is small, but I really don't think Tikal herself is only 3 inches and a centimetre tall! Aren't all the other (non-human) main characters roughly 2-3 feet tall? She's pretty close in stature to the rest of them. --L T Dangerous 04:40, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and also: we might want to find out who designed her. It's not encyclopedic if we don't know the facts. And (lastly) is the bit about her mother fancruft? Or is it from the (non-canon) Archie comics? It needs editing or moving if it's not official and, I must admit, I remember no reference to her mother in Sonic Adventure. --L T Dangerous 04:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

I told you, her designer is either Yuji Uekawa or Takashi Iizuka. And the mother thing is at the website, http://www.concept-mobius.com/info/characterprofiles/tikal/tikal.html.Please do not click the link because it's having some difficulties currently. --anon

My point is, "either" isn't really the stuff of fact. We could really do with finding out for certain. And I don't have a problem with the mother thing if it's true, I was just wondering if it was canon or not. --L T Dangerous 13:51, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, but I checked a lot of places (including my external link) and I just couldn't find out if Tikal's designer was either Yuji Uekawa or Takashi Iizuka. Besides, the E-102 Gamma and E-123 Omega article has that 'either' thing, too. And nobody even complains about it! --anon

[edit] Pictures

You know, this article needs more pictures. I have some ideas, and if anybody knows how to get it, please do so:

1) Near the comic book section, there should be a comic book picture of Tikal.

2) There needs to be a Sonic X picture of Tikal near the Sonic X section.

And if you can't get either of them, please attempt to get at least another picture and put it somewhere in the article that matches.

Also, should the facts section be called trivia instead? Or should some of it go to a fact section and the other go to the trivia section?

By the way, could someone please add Tikal to the Sonic the Hedgehog character section? She should be part of the good guys! --anon

Wow, great job with the article. In my opinion, "trivia" is a useful catch-all term. Oh, and if you're suggesting adding her to the template, I'm not sure that's wise. She just hasn't appeared in enough games to warrant it. -- Supermorff 15:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you! And I'll take your advice and not add her to the Sonic the Hedgehog character section (not that I would know how). But maybe we could add a section in it called background characters or something like that. And the E-series would also be there! And trivia would match in this article, right?

By the way, is the picture at this site, Information Treasury, free? If it is, could you upload it to this article? Thanks! --anon

Hey, this is ScarredSun from Sonic the Hedgehog Information Treasury; regarding that picture, more info can be found on it at Sonic CulT. The Sonic Official Art Archive has the highest-res of it, though. - ScarredSun 17:53, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Trivia is fine for this article, yes. I think if we tried adding a "background character" section then it would just be too busy. I don't think there's much point, mostly because all the characters already appear in the category. As for the picture, that site is a Wiki-based database, so I suspect the picture is available for use (and well done for finding it, cos it's a great picture). However, I don't know how to upload it, so someone else will have to. -- Supermorff 21:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, but do you know anybody who can download that picture into this article? --anon

boo

[edit] Quotes

For the person who put the quotes in the article, I took it out because most of her quotes are already at Wikiquote (at the Sonic the Hedgehog section). --anon

[edit] 2-Player

The 2-player attacks are not included in Tikal's ability section because it is probably made up. For example, Knuckles and Rouge cannot actually stop time or shake the ground. So Tikal probably doesn't have those abilities. Does anybody know how to write that (not the example, though)? Also, how does Tikal understand what Chaos says? Is it telepathy? If it is, I'll add that to the ability section.

As for the fanfiction, shouldn't we move it to the trivia section? It's so short, it should be there. Unless we add some more info! Also, does anybody think this article deserves to be in the good article section?

As for the trivia section, somebody keeps saying that Tikal is unpopular. Tikal is quite popular. I didn't say very. --anon

[edit] Fanfiction? That's not Encyclopaedic!

The article on Tikal fanfiction is not encyclopaedic, and difficult to confirm as any more than fact-based opinion. It's hardly even information. No other Sonic character entries reference fanfiction, though they may occasionally say what is canon and what is fanon. Therefore I removed the Fanfiction chapter/topic thing. If you have a problem, say so here. --Some Girl Called Harley.

Shouldn't a small reference about what Tikal usually is like in fanfiction necessary in the article? I read some pieces of fanfiction about Tikal, and most of them depict Tikal as being aggressive. They also usually pair her with Sonic, Knuckles, Shadow, and Chaos (not the Chao). Tails is rarely paired with her. And she is not commonly involved in yuri. So shouldn't there be a small reference?

Also, do you know how Tikal understands what Chaos say? I'm not sure if it's telepathy or what.

Moreover, the Tikal picture from Sonic Adventure is not copyrighted. It's a wonderful picture and would be a great improvement to the article, but it needs a copyright. I know two sites where it's free, so if this is not free, we need to upload the picture from one of those free sites. I believe the user, Cream Magic, uploaded it. --anon

[edit] Abilities

Um, the body isn't exactly paralyzed (BTW, I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you're talkign about of the Matrix. I saw parts of the Matrix movie, but not the whole thing. :)). They just seem like they're daydreaming, as shown in the Super Sonic Story. And to make things fair, I'll just write something along the lines of, "Tikal is able to transport people to the past in their mind, not physically, similar to a vision."

Yeah that would hold out if Knuckles didn't cleary state he was somewhere else after Tikal had shone him the past

And thank you for considering my feelings and apologizing! :)

Well, how should I change it to say that Tikal is able to sense emeralds, but not as strong as others, such as Knuckles and Rouge?

And I guess I'll get rid of the part that says that Tikal's abilities aren't as strong as others, but her quotes are at Wikiquote.

And the strategy guide says, "The red ball light ball, which gives advice to Sonic, is..." So it says red. Anyhow, thanks to the user, Jedi6, it now says "red and white" sphere! :)

Finally, should I say Tikal can dig, swim, and glide? As well as run quickly and climb quickly? (BTW, this is shown in 2-player in SA2) Cause Sonic can't dig, swim, glide, nor climb. And running quickly is an ability.

Again, despite our little disputes, I appreciate that you're helping me improve this article!! :) --71.104.185.105 08:55, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, the body isn't exactly paralyzed (BTW, I'm sorry, but I don't really understand what you're talkign about of the Matrix. I saw parts of the Matrix movie, but not the whole thing. :)). They just seem like they're daydreaming, as shown in the Super Sonic Story. And to make things fair, I'll just write something along the lines of, "Tikal is able to transport people to the past in their mind, not physically, similar to a vision." Yea the body isn't paralyzed just asleep, but the mind is away. Yea I think you should put that down "Tikal is able to transport people to the past in their mind, not physically, similar to a vision."

And thank you for considering my feelings and apologizing! :):P

Well, how should I change it to say that Tikal is able to sense emeralds, but not as strong as others, such as Knuckles and Rouge?Yea change it to that, and instead of putting down "as strong as others", put down instead "as strong as other treasure hunters".

And I guess I'll get rid of the part that says that Tikal's abilities aren't as strong as others, but her quotes are at Wikiquote.I don't know about that yet but
If her quotes are at WikiQuote, that's fine. But we still need those quotes...the one

"The servers are the 7 Chaos. Chaos is power, power enriched by the heart. The controller is
 the one that unifies the chaos." 

"How can I make you understand? All this fighting, killing, and stealing, can't be the right
path to peace." "The fighting's over. Harmony is restored and life goes on."

We need those quotes, they are really important, because that is what she mostly moan about in Sonic Adventure. Also you put down some notes under her Quote section, that she doesn't say them in Sonic X (does she actually say them:/). Also you can put down this are the quote she was tought by her grandmother. All this should go under the Quote Section, not wikiquote:P

And the strategy guide says, "The red ball light ball, which gives advice to Sonic, is..." So it says red. Anyhow, thanks to the user, Jedi6, it now says "red and white" sphere! :)No poiny cuz I bracketed it before, when it said she can turn into a red ball of light, I bracket and said in the game she is seen turned into a white light. But anyway since it as now been sorted out, no problem

Finally, should I say Tikal can dig, swim, and glide? As well as run quickly and climb quickly? (BTW, this is shown in 2-player in SA2) Cause Sonic can't dig, swim, glide, nor climb. And running quickly is an ability.Alright then, you can say, her abilities are quite similar to Knuckles because she is also an ancient Enchidan. Because half of her abilities are similar to Knuckles, the only thing that makes her abilites different to Knuckles is because, Knuckles get uprades while she doesn't also she can transport characters mind back to the past.

Again, despite our little disputes, I appreciate that you're helping me improve this article!! :)happy to help:P

>x<ino 14:39, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I have now fit in the quotes into Tikal's Storyline in Sonic Adventure.  :) What do you think? --71.105.12.41 19:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I just counted how many "howevers" I used in the article and there are only 4 (unless I miscounted). So that's not too much, right? --71.105.12.41 19:14, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Yea, the article is looking neat!:)

4 howevers, thank god. Trust me, that word is really driving me mad, if you count how many howevers are there in Shadow's related articles...:P

>x<ino 01:44, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, does that mean 4 "howevers" are okay?? --71.105.12.41 02:15, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Yea...

By the way I got something tot show you

Image:Tikal_From_Temple_IV.jpg & Image:Tikal.jpg Wat comes to your head?

>x<ino 17:58, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Um, did you upload it yet, or did you just want to know what comes in my head? If you want to know what comes into my head, I think it would be a great improvement to the article if you uploaded some pictures! --71.105.10.23 16:16, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh, now I see it! It's a real Tikal city! :) --71.105.10.23 17:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey, would you mind uploading the picture from this website to the right of the Appearances section for me? I'll add the copyright tags and rationale for you. --71.105.10.23 17:32, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes...not only that, it looks like the scenary of Mystic Ruins.
That's a GIF file, If i save it on my hard drive it would probably come up as a still picture.
because you can only upload pics on your harddrive

>x<ino 17:49, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, a still picture is okay. --71.118.84.84 04:20, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Wait...a min! That Gif image looks like fAnmade! Even if it isn't...since when was Sonic Pinball Party in black & white image?.

Anyway, if I upload the image, I think the image would likly be in Sonic Pinball Party...don't you think!?

>x<ino 15:44, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gif

image:Tikeyes.gif Well, it saved as a GIF file.
Now...would you mind explaining to me about this pic!?

>x<ino 15:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be a picture of Tikal blinking but why is that needed for the article? Jedi6-(need help?) 16:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

That's the same question I am asking...but the problem is. The image is in black & white while the game it self is coloured

>x<ino 17:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

The picture is needed because it needs to show a picture of how Tikal actually made a cameo appearance in Sonic Pinball Party. You can see my rationale in the picture link for more information. Also, I looked at an example article before, and I saw that they had almost every picture for every appearance that the character made. --71.104.187.141 18:51, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I don't know why it's black and white. Well, she is supposed to be a stone carving, so since it's made out of stone, it might be black and white (since stones are grey) that way...or is it? --71.104.187.141 19:02, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Accepted!

>x<ino 21:04, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! And I just put it in the article, but does anyone know how to make the picture bigger than it actually is (or the frame)? --71.104.187.141 02:32, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes Jedi6-(need help?) 02:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC) 100px

Thanks again, but how do I put captions underneath it? Everytime I try to put a frame around it with a caption, it looks like the picture on the right. [[Image:Tikeyes.gif|200px|frame|left|Tikal's cameo appearance on Sonic Pinball Party.]] --71.104.187.141 02:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

BTW, does anyone know if Tikal's Japanese name is correct? --71.104.187.141 03:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

caption: [:image:P.gif|thumb|200px|right/left|:P]

and I dunno if that's how it is...perhaps if you do a word translation:P

>x<ino 09:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but the caption thing didn't work. And I don't exactly know what's a word translation...--71.105.12.73 19:28, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you can caption moving images

>x<ino 20:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I can caption it, but only a few words. --71.105.12.73 00:01, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

So, if it's not too much trouble, would you mind uploading this picture for me? --71.105.7.87 19:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. See it here. By the way, in the Mozilla Firefox web browser, the text on the Sonic Pinball Party GIF is cut off, so it look like it says "Tika in SPF garr". Oddly, it displays correctly with Internet Explorer. -- RattleMan 19:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! So how should I change the text on the Sonic Pinball Party GIF? --71.105.7.87 22:18, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

There isn't any way you can change the text so that it works...it'll be cut off anyway. Oh well, not a big problem... -- RattleMan 23:15, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese

The Japanese for the title was computerified garbage, and I took the liberty of fixing it according to the information on Sonic HQ. I don't know if it's even correct to put in a Japanese name here or whatever, but I *did* clobber the Sonic HQ reference (mostly because I don't know where to put it or if it even should be there), and would like for someone else to go take care of it if they so feel it to be incorrect. However, if the name ティカル is indeed correct (easily verifiable for someone who actually played in Japanese), then it should be ... rather common knowledge that it would be pronounced "tikaru" and Sonic HQ shouldn't be sourced for something like that. Thanks! -68.100.68.23 21:41, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Okay, it's fixed up! --71.105.7.87 00:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

She is indeed called ティカル in the Japanese version of Sonic Adventure. I don't know if it is appropriate to put her Japanese name on this page, though -- Tikal is a Mayan name. (Stefan2 03:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC))

It's okay, because the creators named her that apparently, and we have to show what her name was spelled like in the Japanese version o Sonic Adventure. --71.118.86.238 19:08, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

Does anybody know any reliable sources? According to the CVG Peer review, they're mostly fansites...Although I do think those fansites are correct...So does anybody know any? These are the most reliable ones I got and I don't know what other references are needed. --71.105.3.211 21:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess I'll just keep these seven references. Besides, I saw an example article just have two references before, and I do have some reliable ones. --71.104.180.139 18:32, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good article

Once the CVG Peer review is archived, does anybody think this article should be a good article? I do! --71.118.83.254 06:57, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll add it as a good article soon. --71.104.190.42 20:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Love life

I removed the love life section because it is all speculation with no real evidence to back it up. I'm sorry if it took a lot of time, but it's just not verifiable. I actually was going to put something similar to that in the article, but someone explained to me that it's not verifiable and unencyclopedic. So, I'm sorry again, but it just shouldn't be in the article. --71.105.12.194 19:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Notes

Good work so far, just remember -

• sort refs out like this

.<ref>

• not

</ref>.

• "Abilities and weaknesses", "Fleetway", "Archie comics" and "Sonic X" lack sufficient referencing

I have to fail this, but what I saw is very good. Referencing the problem areas and please re-nominate! Highway ^{Rainbow Sneakers} 14:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I fixed all the problems and have renominated the article! --71.105.7.83 07:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA: sorry, no

This is scrupulously edited and sourced, and plainly represents a lot of work. But a warning bell goes off in the very first sentence: Tikal (ティカル, Tikaru) is a fictional character from the Sonic the Hedgehog universe. The overwhelming majority of the article is about what the character does within that universe. Meanwhile, WIAGA says: The focus of the article should remain on discussing the subject as fiction within the context of "our" universe, not on establishing it as a "real" topic in a fictional universe.... To my mind, the focus is on the latter, and thus the article is not a good one according to WIAGA. -- Hoary 05:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

You can quote WP:FICT until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't help anyone at this point, since I feel we've passed that stage months ago. Any chance you could be more specific? The only problem I see with the only sentence you quote is that it is simply vague. Compared to FA-quality material like "Felix the Cat is a cartoon character from the silent-film era," it doesn't seem that bad. Nifboy 06:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

If the "you" here is me, I wasn't quoting WP:FICT but instead quoting WP:WIAGA. The opening sentence of this article is, in itself, fine. (I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.) But it does ring a bell: "This article is about an element from a fictional universe." This is a difficult area that's expressly dealt with in WP:WIAGA. And, unless I misread it, WP:WIAGA expressly says that an article done in this way is not a "Good Article". Incidentally, I had nothing to do with the writing of WP:WIAGA (though I do agree with this part of it), and I can't see how I could have misinterpreted it. (If I have somehow misinterpreted it, then I think Aguerriero has done so in the same way.) -- Hoary 07:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

So I should make it sound more like this character is fictional? And have a balance of in-universe and out-of-universe aspects? --71.105.6.180 19:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

First, has the character been noted outside the fictional universe? (Has it had any influence?) I'd work on that. Secondly, I'd try to make the whole thing more concise. Here (stripped of markup) is a randomly chosen example: Later, Doctor Eggman appeared, and Tikal telepathically told the chao to give Chaos the seven Chaos Emeralds to increase his strength. Tikal then assured Sonic that Chaos would not destroy the city because he was using the positive energies of the Chaos Emeralds this time. After Dr. Eggman's defeat, she and the chao spend some time with Sonic and his friends. Some time later, Tikal tells them she is going to return to her own time and asks Cheese if she would like to come with them. However, Cream explains the Cheese prefers to stay with her friends, so as Tikal is leaving, she tells Cheese that if she calls her name, she will return. Compare The Brothers Karamazov -- yes, an example of a very different genre (and as it happens not a book that I have ever read or want to read), but interesting as a long, featured article about fiction. There's little or no "X does this, and then Y does that, and a bit later Z says this to X": instead, plot and characters are summarized. Of course this article was and perhaps will again be proffered as a candidate for GA, not FA, so standards needn't be so high; but I'm disturbed by the apparent lack of concern for conciseness. -- Hoary 02:46, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think I fixed the problem of lack of conciseness...I think...And I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "noted outside the fictional universe". I just know that her design was influenced by the Aztec place, Tikal, but that's it. --71.104.179.3 06:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

In brief, the character is a product of the real world; and the article refers to this relationship, as it should. But has the character had any effect on the real world? If so, the article should deal with that too. The character "Svengali" (from the novel Trilby) is now part of the English language -- see for example the very title of the Observer article "Fears of new Waco as FBI hunt for Svengali leader of polygamy cult" -- and while this is of course an extreme example, I'd think that a character written up at such length would in some way be noted in the wider world. -- Hoary 08:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, I don't think she has any effect on the real world, except for the fact that some people believe that she was put in Sonic Adventure 2/Battle in 2-player for fans or to clear up a plothole in her story. And she is somewhat popular because people like her personality or the fact that her design was based off an Aztec city. However, there are some people who dislike her personality. Anyhow, Tikal doesn't exactly have the biggest effect on the real world. I looked at a featured article, Wario, and it doesn't seem to have a section that talks about his relationship with the real world, unless the section, Wario in other media counts. --71.118.88.144 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

If that's so, then I reexperience my initial reaction, which is to wonder what all of this stuff is doing here. There could be a good reason to have an article about the set of games, and also perhaps about each game. Is anyone who is not interested in the games at all likely to be interested in her? (For Iago, yes, people who aren't interested in Othello may indeed be interested in Iago, because he's commonly referred to.) Really, this article seems much better suited to a wiki other than wikipedia (as WP:WIAGA hints). NB I say seems: I may be missing something, and I'm still all ears as it were. -- Hoary 04:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

To Hoary: I don't think that's good reason to remove the article somewhere else. According to Jimbo, encyclopedic content "is information which is verifiable and which can be easily presented in an NPOV fashion". --DavidHOzAu 05:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a statement of what's acceptable rather than what's good. -- Hoary 22:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

That's my point. --DavidHOzAu 01:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

To 71.118.88.144: Strictly speaking, Wario doesn't count. It has less references and would probably make a good WP:FARC. However, the current issue with Tikal's article is notability in the lead section. You have to explain why the article is notable, (or interesting,) and explain this quickly with in a paragraph or so. Ideally, the lead section of article should say something like this: "Tikal is the only dead character in the Sonic the Hedgehog series of games released by Sega that was playable after her death. <then say why being a dead character is notable, giving a reason why they should continue reading>." However, as her primary appearance was in Sonic Adventure, (not Sonic Adventure 2,) you'll have to use something different, preferably something that is notable and that the article dwells on. Until then, I don't think this article will be a GA. --DavidHOzAu 05:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll try to fix this problem and make it more interesting. --71.118.88.144 09:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I now added her notability. Is it good enough? Can I now renominate this article? --71.105.11.164 21:59, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Of course you can nominate it at any time, but I see obvious problems that can rather easily be fixed. For example, the tense wobbling in: Tikal is [present] a passionate, gentle pacifist. She never wavered [past] in her attempt to oppose Pachacamac and is determined to have her tribe in peace. She has tried [present perfect] to stop her father in amicable ways and has never once resorted to violence. And it still seems verbose. I suggest printing it out and going over it with a red pen -- I find that when I do this to an article, I quickly see and fix problems that elude me when I'm numbed by a computer monitor. -- Hoary 22:36, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

What works for me is changing my font regulary. Also, print preview might work if you don't want to use paper, but if that's not your cup of tea, follow Hoary's suggestion: Print it. I also suggest using some editing marks found here. --DavidHOzAu 01:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll try DavidHOzAu's way, because I don't really want to waste so much paper. --71.105.11.164 03:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

There, I think the problems have been fixed. Are there any other problems that would prevent this article from becoming a good one? --71.105.11.164 03:56, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, since there hasn't been any more complaints, I'll just renominate it. --71.118.78.202 18:06, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA Nomination

Unfortunately, this article does not meet the qualifications for Good Article status. There are a few minor issues, but one major stumbling block.

The biggest issue with the article, with respect to GA or FA status, is the fact that it is written with an "in universe" perspective, which is contrary to the Manual of Style. Writing about fiction with an "out of universe" perspective is not easy, particularly if you are used to writing "in universe", as many fan-sites and fiction-specific wikis recommend. However, it is not encyclopedic, and does not fit here.

In response to the difficulties people have had in figuring out this 'different' way of writing about fiction, the new guideline/essay Manual of Style (writing about fiction) was created. I'd recommend that the editors of this article read the essay, and work on rewriting this article to fit the guidelines. It includes a lot of examples and tips, which should help out.

Please make a serious effort in this direction before renominating for FA or GA status. This guideline is being taken more and more seriously as time goes on. Also, don't bother citing other FAs or GAs that violate these guidelines. Many have slipped through the cracks, and will slowly but surely be reworked, or submitted for delisting, as time goes on.

This is a complete article, and clearly represents a lot of work. Keep up the efforts, and keep up the improvements. The article, as it stands right now, might make a good inclusion on one of the many GFDL compliant fiction-specific wikis that encourage "in universe" perspectives, if you are interested. I'll watch this page for replies, or you can leave a message on my talk page if you want more clarification. Thanks for your hard work. Phidauex 17:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I read the manual of style for fiction (as well as some articles that have an out-of-universe aspect), but I still don't know how exactly to make an out-of-universe aspect. Well, this is what Manual of Style (writing about fiction) says:

• A summary of its plot or elements of character and exposition, treated briefly, and clearly defined as fictional; (I think I do this is in the article)
• Its author or creator; (It's talked about in WP:Lead)
• Its design; (Talked about in WP:Lead)
• Its development both before its first appearance and over the course of the narrative; (Development is unknown before first appearance)
• Real-world factors which have influenced the work; (Talked about)
• For fictional characters in dramatic productions, the actor or actress who portrayed the role and his or her approach to playing that character; (This character isn't in dramatic productions)
• Its popularity among the general public; (Didn't talk about that)
• For commercial offerings, its sales figures; (Not a commerical offering)
• Its reception by critics; (Not talked about)
• Critical analysis of the subject; and (Not talked about)
• Its influence on later creators and their projects (No influence known)

So, perhaps, I need to write about this character's popularity among the general public, its reception by critics, and critical analysis of the subject. And possibly its influence on later creators and their projects. So, is that right? --71.118.84.86 19:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Some sections, like the lead, are not in bad shape. It could probably stand to be reworded (a few of the sentences, like "Tikal's attire is also based on it." have a very clunky feel. Try reading it out loud to find little stumbling points like that. However, from the WP:WAF perspective, it is pretty good. We learn where the character's name came from, what influenced character design, who did the voice acting and a bit of information about the demeanor of the character, and what she has appeared in.

After that though, things start to break down. From the Role in the Game section until Appearances, we get no connection to the real world at all. These entire sections are written from the "in universe" perspective. You should be asking yourself, for every paragraph written, "How does this relate to the real world? Is this a very unique plot device? Was a new special effect created for this event? Did the author base this character on his own mother?" If you can't think of anything, then the paragraph may not have a point in the context of this encyclopedia article. This article is probably far too long. I'd restrict any 'plot summary' type sections to three or four paragraphs at most. Every other bit should relate to this world.

Note that this article is nearly as long as Felix the Cat, a featured article. However, Felix the Cat has almost no "in universe" writing, or plot summaries. The article is devoted to the impact the cat has had on the world, and the history and development of the cat. Of course, Felix the Cat is one of the most recognized characters in the history of cartoons, and Tikal the Echidna is a small character in a pair of moderately successful video games, the relative lengths of the final articles will likely mirror the relative difference in their importance.

I know this is different from most fan-sites. The extended plot summary is well written, and would be great a lot of places, but having more than a few paragraphs that don't directly relate to our world isn't good encyclopedic writing. Phidauex 21:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I added this paragraph to Role in the Game, "Unlike the other games, Sonic Adventure is more storyline-based. Sonic Team had actually took a trip to Central America to find inspiration for their next Sonic title, leading them to create the character, Tikal. They even named her after an ancient assembly of ruins in Guatemala." and "Because of Tikal's docile personality, she is not very popular in the Sonic community. Despite this, there have not been any fan clubs for 'Tikal-haters' as such. However, there are several fans who do like her personality as well as the fact that her design was based on a real civilization. Although she does have more fans than Void and Lumina, she does not have as many as Big likely because he has made more appearances than her." to the personality section. --71.118.84.86 00:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, isn't "Some people believe that her appearance in 2-player clears up the plot hole of her disappearance, while others think SEGA put her there for fans" an out-of-universe aspect? --71.118.84.86 00:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be, if it wasn't blatant speculation. Nifboy 06:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have a source for "''Some people believe that her appearance in 2-player clears up the plot hole of her disappearance, while others think SEGA put her there for fans", and the only way you can tell that the other sentence is real is by checking around on the Internet. You would see some people discuss about it, and that she isn't very popular by not having many fan clubs. That's how to prove it. --71.118.87.204 06:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

While it may indeed be a verifiable fact that some people believe this or that, statements that some people believe this or that seem pretty feeble stuff for an encyclopedia article. Still, this is not as bad as such material as there have not been any fan clubs for 'Tikal-haters' as such: I mean, while there are plenty of people who hate the music of Barry Manilow -- which I've recently read is piped into shopping malls as a way of flushing out teenagers and perhaps also others for whom shopping is not the meaning of life -- I've never heard and indeed can hardly imagine a fan club for Manilow-haters.

This article seems conscientiously written, but written by fans, for fans, and also even about fans. Compare this with Sicilian Baroque: arguably that too is largely by and for fans, but it's certainly not about fans, and it has material of that's of at least some interest to non-fans: e.g. whether you like Sicilian baroque or not, it's an unavoidable part of the physical structure of a number of towns and cities.

I'm a non-fan of these games, and right now my only question is of why this character is called an echidna. I do realize that animals are routinely stylized and anthropomorphized for cartoonish purposes, but I see no resemblance between this character and an echidna. -- Hoary 07:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

to 71.118.84.86 - I slightly reworded your paragraph about the central america trip, and added a 'citation needed' template. However, I wanted to let you know that things like that are exactly the sort of thing articles like this need more of. Real world context! Keep thinking in that direction, connecting the character to the relevant world, and you'll keep improving the article. Phidauex 18:55, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Phidauex, I removed the citation needed and added a reference. And Hoary, I know she has no resemblance between an echidna, but she was just designed this way. I think most of the Sonic characters are, such as Knuckles the Echidna, Amy Rose, and Sonic the Hedgehog. --71.105.6.247 19:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I erased the part about 'Tikal-haters' and replaced it with information about her official fanlisting (along with a reference). I also added information about her artwork and coloring in the Archie comic book section and in the Appearances section talking about teh Archie comics. Is this good enough? --71.118.87.169 03:48, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hint Orb?

The Hint Orbs that you see throughout Sonic Advance are all Tikal, aren't they? should that be mentioned somewhere?

You mean Sonic Adventure, right? And they are. It is said like, "She is able to turn into a ball of light", which is the hint orb. But if you mean you want to write the information as something like, "Tikal is in Sonic Adventure as a ball of light who give hints to Sonic and his friends." I could do that. --71.118.87.187 21:00, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deceased?

To answer the question of whether Tikal is dead or not, I summerize my reasoning by saying:

Tikal was born about 4000 years ago, but when she sealed herself and Chaos into the Master Emerald, they were sealed inside and I assume no time passed for them, because when Tikal was released, she still was alive and looked the same as she did in the past, as you see in the end of Sonic Adventure when she turns back into her true form. I think the ball of light she could turn into was not her spirit, but one of her abilities. When Chaos and Tikal rose into the air and disappeared, they were perhaps going back to the past, to another time that would have been, or to the Emerald Shrine, or perhaps they even were going to different times to protect the Chao from anyone who might try to hurt them. To further prove this theory, the picture at the end of SA showed Tikal and Chaos at the Emerald shrine; most of the SA ending pictures took place after the stories. So my answer is no, Tikal is not dead.

So I have removed the notes that say she is deceased. Tikallover 18:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tikal, no more....

Alright folks, i don't know how long this has happened, but I thought that the Tikal article was in the 'Miscellaneous' section(I finally spelled it right!). Tikal has only appeared in Sonic Adventure, and, I think, should be moved(along with all the information in this article currently) to the 'Miscellaneous'(i'm on a roll) section. I'm not just picking on Tikal fans, mind you. I'm hunting down all the characters in the Sonic series that need to be changed.--Superbub 03:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you talking about the category or getting rid of this article? Tikallover 03:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Get rid of the article? By no means! I just think we should move it 'Miscellaneous', since characters like Elise and some dietes are already there. I'm taking care of certain other characters that should be moved as well.--Superbub 00:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The birth of Knuckles the echidna

Some people don't belive this. But I think Tikal is the mother of Knuckles. They are the same of species. Maybe thats why she didn't want the city to go into war. Maybe she didn't tell her father. Knuckles did say he knowed that place. So somebody please respond.

possible but not likly, Tikal was only 14 when she was seald in the master emerlad wich happend severl thousnd years ago howver she coud have been a young mother and for his saftiy warped him to the future with chaos control. evan if she is not member of his family dercetly she could be somethig of a great ancestor or something if you Know what I mean.

I think Sega/Sonic Team would've revealed that she's Knux's mom. And, no offense, dude/dudette, I find the idea completely asinine. She's fourteen, man.71.209.183.185 00:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Just forget what I said @ 71.209.183.185.

[edit] Tikal's Weight

Ummm, the other day, Tikal's weight was stated as 50+ pounds, and now, it's a secret. Why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.209.170.253 (talk) 22:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

Because the only source to ever show her weight is this. The japanese letters under her length is her weight, which translates into "secret", just like with Amy, Rouge, and Blaze. The 50+ pounds was fan speculation. 83.255.67.167 14:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess girls really don't like to reveal their weight. XD --Luigifan 11:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WHY?

If Tikal's age is listed as 14, and she's been alive for over 100 years, WHY WON'T YOU LET ME WRITE 15 FOR SHADOW AND HE'S BEEN ALIVE FOR 50+ YEARS?!? I KNOW WHERE I FOUND THE NUMBER. ON SONIC CENTRAL!! JUST LOOK THROUGH EVERY SPOT IN THE FORUMS AND YOU'LL FIND IT!!! 207.74.196.20 18:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you think about it, her spirit was trapped in the Master Emerald when she was 14. So in a way, here spirit was sort of in stasis, and when she was released, she is still 14. And Shadow was in stasis for 50 years, so he doesn't age, either. Actually, I think Shadow has no age, but that's just my assumption. And I'm not stopping you from writing that. And please, calm down! --71.118.74.47 06:38, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

No, YOU go and find it on Sonic Central. Do you have any idea how huge those forums are? We're not doing your dirty work, since you're the one who needs to prove it. For now, Tikal has a source link, Shadow doesn't. Gurko 12:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

To the first guy, you don't have any hard citations to show that she aged. Your reasoning is fanmade and isn't allowed here. Forums, for the most part, aren't a reliable source (because there are exceptions). Also, Shadow is ageless. I don't know what IGN was thinking when they said 15, but there's more evidence against it and not enough to support a retcon. Tikal is 14, Shadow has no age. Those are hard cited and will stay until something else is hard cited.GrandMasterGalvatron 03:42, 25 March 2007 (UTC)