User talk:TigranTheGreat/Archive 2
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[edit] Re: Request
I agree that User:Ulvi is either a sockpuppet or a meatpuppet and he has a habit of reappearing to defend certain users and their positions, but I don't think there is justification for blocking him at the present time. He has only made 3 edits in the last month. Sorry I can't be of more help. Sarah Ewart 03:31, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for your thankyou message. I was rather surprised (nicely) as no one has ever thanked me for not doing as they wish (they usually abuse me!). I'm sorry I couldn't help but please don't hesitate to ask again if you feel he is in breach of policy or if you need assistance with anything else. I don't know if you're familiar with it or not, but the sockpuppet policy is here and it explains how socks may or may not be used. For what it's worth, I feel that Ulvi is a meatpuppet, rather than a sockpuppet. Cheers, Sarah Ewart 13:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Regarding User:Ararat arev
I have reported Ararat to WP:AIV and as far as I know, reverted his edits to the most recent complete version of this page. Apologies on behalf of RC patrol for not noticing and reporting him sooner. You may also have a case for Wikipedia:Harassment- I will be happy to assist you in this regard if you wish. --Moralis 09:17, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Re: talk page
I didn't really think i needed that, if you want you can put it back (or me). (sounds very random lol) Nareklm 21:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
- I thought you might find this interesting have you seen this massive statue? Tigran the great. Nareklm 20:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Re: Paytakaran
Hey Tigran, nice to see you back. Just to let you know, I didn't add the reference from Iranica. That was GM. Check the edit history again and send your complaints to him, not me. -- Clevelander 21:08, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] mediation page is open
pls put signature for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_mediation/Urartu --Dacy69 22:28, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Are you going to join mediation procedure--Dacy69 22:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Request for Mediation
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A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Urartu.
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[edit] Urartu article
Hi Tigran. User:Dacy69 has made a request for assistance in the editing of the Urartu article. According to Dacy69, the dispute centres on differing views on the ethnic composition of Urartu. I note that you are a very experienced Wiki editor, and that you have been working on Armenian related articles for over a year. I also note that you got involved in a dispute in February that caused you to leave Wikipedia for a long while. I can sympathise with that - it happened to me as well! I'm pleased you came back. You are clearly a committed and knowledgeable editor who is respected by other editors working in your field.
Dacy69's request is for "neutral wording of section "Ethnic Composition" of page Urartu". From my reading of the situation, it appears that Dacy69 would like information about the Hurrit tribe to be included in the article, while you do not. Is that correct? It also appears that Dacy69 has provided evidence that some scholars believe the Hurrit tribe did live in Urartu. Is the evidence he provides correct? If the evidence is correct, and some scholars are saying that the Hurrit tribe did live in Urartu, then what is your objection to that appearing in the article? SilkTork 11:27, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Paytakaran
This book states Paytakaran was part of Greater Armenia by any chance can we reference this? The Armenian people from ancient to modern times: from antiquity to the fourteenth century - By Richard G. Hovannisian Proof Nareklm 08:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mediation
A request for mediation has been filed with the Mediation Committee that lists you as a party. The Mediation Committee requires that all parties listed in a mediation must be notified of the mediation. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Paytakaran, and indicate whether you agree or refuse to mediate. If you are unfamiliar with mediation, please refer to Wikipedia:Mediation. There are only seven days for everyone to agree, so please check as soon as possible. Khoikhoi 20:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Request for Mediation
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A Request for Mediation to which you are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the mediation subpage, Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Paytakaran.
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[edit] AMA
Just to let you know I will be helping in the dispute you are in. Have a nice week and god bless. --James, La gloria è a dio 15:03, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
- The info you want out comes from a reliable source, Encyclopædia Iranica. Have a nice week and god bless. --James, La gloria è a dio 17:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
- Tigran, I was never uncivil or assumed bad faith. I asked him if he feels as if he owns the articles, he said know, and I believe him. I'm sorry that you thought I was assuming bad faith but I can assure you I was not. Cheers. --James, La gloria è a dio 02:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
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- Just to let you know I am going to get a lot more people into this case. Look at my desk for new comments a lot. Thanks. --James, La gloria è a dio 02:37, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
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[edit] Your question
You asked a question on Sir James Paul's ama desk. AMA stands for "Association of Members' Advocates", you can read more here. Cheers and I hope this helps. ~ Arjun 04:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Blocked
I have blocked you for inappropriate edit warring and 3RR gaming. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/3RR#User:TigranTheGreat reported by User:Grandmaster (Result:). In particular, Making reverts edits intentionally just outside the 24 hour mark to use the 3RR rule to your advantage, rather than as a tool to cool conflict, is disruptive. Comments like "Now why would you warn me against 3RR? Don't you ever want to make me get caught? Just as I get you blocked every time? :)" show that you were clearly acting with an intent to bait the other party into getting blocked, not working constructively towards the encyclopedia, and so I find it hard not to consider this bad faith trolling. Dmcdevit·t 08:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Dear Dmcdevit.
If my goal was to bait him, I would certainly not tell him "I get you blocked." That obviously gives him extra warning. My comment was merely a response to Grandmaster's aggressive edit warring and his edit summaries which were intended to intimidate. It was an attempt to dissolve the tension with humor.
A Gaming System is defined as "the use of Wikipedia rules to thwart Wikipedia policy." As the history of the page shows, my intention has been precesily to prevent violation of Wikipedia policy by User:Grandmaster. The user continues deleting a sourced, verifiable sentence, on the mere grounds that "it is unbelievable," which is a blatant violation of the rules against Owning an Article, and Verfiability. Grandmaster has used 3 reverts every 24 hours to preclude the sentence from the article, has ignored sound arguments on the talk page, and merely keeps repeating the reasoning that "it is unbelievable." Discussions have been tried for months with the user and failed, and I simply could not allow his repeated exclusion of the sourced sentence from the article. I therefore respectfully request lifting my block.--TigranTheGreat 09:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- The history of the article shows you edit warring, not trying "to prevent violation of Wikipedia policy". Edt warring is unacceptable under all circumstances; the answer to failed discussion s dispute resolution, not confrontation. Dmcdevit·t 09:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I understand, but this involves a blatant removal of a sourced info, not some "parties can't agree on the wording" dispute. Dispute resolution has been tried and failed, this was the only way to prevent the removal of a verifiable fact.--TigranTheGreat 09:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] TigranTheGreat
Since I oppose Grandmaster's edits and am in favor of the current version, the following contains both statements of facts in the current version as well as proposed statements that should be excluded. They are numbered, and each is followed by a list of quotes to support either inclusion or exclusion of the statement of fact. For clarity, each quote is preceded by a brief comment in parentheses containing a fact supported by a quote, but not necessarily to be included in the text. These facts in turn support (or preclude) the numbered statements of facts.
1) To exclude all mentions of Baylaqan (comment--The city of Paytakaran at issue here is not the same as Baylaqan).
- Robert Hewsen, "Historical Geography of Armenia," Map of Armenia in the 4th c.
- (Shows Paytakaran south of Arax, in 4th c. AD)
- Encyclopedia Iranica
- (places Baylaqan north of Arax, and built in early 6th c, or later.)
- BAYLAQAN, Armenian form Paytakaran (cf. Marquart, Osteuropäische und ostasiatische Streifzüge, Leipzig, 1903, p. 457), a town of the medieval Islamic region of Arran (q.v.), the classical Caucasian Albania, lying in the triangle between the Kor and Aras (Araxes) rivers, in what is today the Mil steppe in Soviet Azerbaijan. In Islamic times, it lay on the highway connecting Ardabil and Bajarvan with Barda (qq.v); today, only ruins remain of Baylaqan, to the south-east of Shusha. Said to have been founded by the Sasanian Emperor Qobad, Baylaqan may well have been founded when the area was colonized by Iranians in the later Sasanian period.
- Britannica
- Kavadh I, also spelled Qobad, king of the Sasanian empire of Persia (reigned 488–496 and 498/499–531).
- Iranica
- SASANIAN DYNASTY, the last Persian lineage of rulers to achieve hegemony over much of Western Asia before Islam, ruled 224 CE–650 CE.
2) Statement: According to Strabo, both Caucasian Albania and Armenia had provinces with the name "Caspiane." (comment--just as both Greece and Yugoslavia had provinces named Macedonia. The sources below are also presented to exclude proposed statements about Caspians and Parcies having lived in Paytakaran, and repeated uprisings against Armenian rule).
- Strabo:
- (on linguistic/ethnic homogeneity of the provinces conquered in 189 BC, including Armenia's Caspiane)
- According to report, Armenia, though a small country in earlier times, was enlarged by Artaxias and Zariadris, who formerly were generals of Antiochus the Great, but later, after his defeat, reigned as kings (the former as king of Sophene, Acisene, Odomantis, and certain other countries, and the latter as king of the country round Artaxata), and jointly enlarged their kingdoms by cutting off for themselves parts of the surrounding nations,--I mean by cutting off Caspiane and Phaunitis and Basoropeda from the country of the Medes; and the country along the side of Mt. Paryadres and Chorsene and Gogarene, which last is on the far side of the Cyrus River, from that of the Iberians; and Carenitis and Xerxene, which border on Lesser Armenia or else are parts of it, from that of the Chalybians and the Mosynoeci; and Acilisene and the country round the Antitaurus from that of the Cataonians; and Taronitis from that of the Syrians; and therefore they all speak the same language, as we are told.
- (on linguistic diversity of Albania)
- They have twenty-six languages, because of the fact that they have no easy means of intercourse with one another.
- (On the boundary of Albania and Armenia in Strabo's time (1st c BC) )
- The frontier along the Kura (Kor), affirmed by Strabo (Geography 11.14.5), was repeatedly overrun, to the advantage sometimes of the Albanians, sometimes of the Armenians.
- Robert Hewsen, "Historical Geography of Armenia," Map of Armenia in the 4th c.
- (Armenia's Kaspiene (Paytakaran) lies below river Kura)
- satrapa1.com, Map of Armenia
- (Kaspiane being the name of a land north of Kura)
- Iranica
- (The area of Caspian tribes--i.e. Caspiene--potentially on both sides of Kura, as opposed to Paytakaran itself, which was strictly south of Kura)
- CASPIANS (Gk. Ka‚spioi), name of an ancient people dwelling along the southwestern shore of the Caspian Sea, whether north or south of the river Kura is not clear.
- "History of the Ancient World," Moscow, 1983
- (The reconquest of Paytakaran by Artashes I in 189 BC was part of his reconquests of Armenian lands)
- Арташес I расширил свои владения в Армении за счет областей, подчиненных ранее Атропатеной, а также Иверией; кое-где он вышел и за пределы территории с армяноязычным населением. В Иверии был убит Фарнаджом, потомок Фарнабаза, и на престол возведен армянский царевич.
- Artashes I widened his domains in Armenia at the expense of provinces that had been subjugated earler by Atropatene [i.e. Media] and Iberia; in addition, in some places he moved beyond the area of Armenian-speaking population. In Iberia tthe king Parnaj was killed, and an Armenian prince sat on the throne.
- http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000002/st21.shtml (v. 2, pp 399-414)
- "History of the Ancient World," Moscow, 1983
- (Paytakaran was south of Kura, while Albanian kingom was north of Kura, and it acquired Eastern Armenian areas only later (5th c. AD). Here the author assumes that part of Paytakaran was between Kura and Arax, which is disputed.)
- Собственно Алванией первоначально называлась, по-видимому, средняя часть долины р. Куры к северу от нее. Позже к Алвании были присоединены и некоторые области Армении к югу от Куры — Утик, часть Пайтакарана и Арцаха (приблизительно соответствует совр. Нагорному Карабаху).
- Albania itself originally covered the middle area of the valley of river Kura, north of the river. Later several provinces of Armenia south of Kura--Utik, part of Paytakaran, and Artsakh (approximately today's Nagorno-Karabakh) were annexed to Albania as well
- (Confirming Strabo in the linguistic/ethnic homogenity of Armenia (koyne, as opposed to lingua-franca, is the spoken native language of the population))
- если армянский язык, вероятно, еще до начала новой эры был лингва франка, то уже к I в. н. э. он стал койнэ (как это видно из указания Страбона).
- If Armenian language prior to the common era was probably a lingua franca, then by 1st c AD it became koyne (as is clear from account of Strabo).
- (Discussing and refuting the idea that Armenian kings Armenianized people on conquered lands. Supports the fact the Armenian language was not imposed on reconquered lands, but was native.)
- Ни одно древнее государство не пыталось насильственно насаждать свой язык среди иноязычного населения. Конечно, чужеземным начальникам надо было как-то объясняться с населением (из практики Ахеменидской державы, а также римлян в Западной Грузии известно, что они пользовались услугами устных переводчиков), но ничто не мешало жителям говорить на родном языке у себя дома.
- Not a single ancient state tried to implant its language among a foreign-speaking population. Of course, foreign governors needed somehow to communicate with the population (from the Achemenid practice, and the practice of Romans in Georgia we know that they utilized the services of oral translators), but nothing prevented the population to speak their native tongue at home.
- http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000003/st10.shtml (v. 3, pp 201-210)
- Movses Khorenatsi (5th c AD), "History of Armenia"
- (Prior to Artashes' reconquests in 180's BC, Paytakaran had previously been part of Armenia, and had broken away from Armenia. The Armenian text says Kaspk or country of Kaspits (Kaspits Ashkarh), which is more correct)
- Также Страна касбов по этому поводу отложилась от нашего царя. Поэтому Арташес посылает на них Смбата со всей армянской ратью и сам сопровождает их в течение семи дней. Смбат, придя туда, усмиряет всех, а Страну касбов разоряет и уводит в Армению пленных больше, чем из Артаза, и с ними их царя Зардманоса.
- Also the country of kasbs [Armenian original--Kasbits Ashkarh] on that occasion broke away from our king. Therefore Artashes sends against them Smbat with all of Armenian troops and accompanies them himself for 7 days. Smbat, coming there, brings peace to everyone, and ravages the Country of Casbs, taking to Armenia more prisoners than from Artaz, including their king Zardmanos.
- Iranica, "Artaxias I"
- (Artashes' reconquers Armenian kingdoms/principalities)
- At the end of the 3rd century, Armenia was a patchwork of 120 dynastic states called "kingdoms" (regna) by Pliny (Natural history 6.9); these were, presumably, the domains of local dynastic houses (Arm. naxarans), loosely united under the Orontid kings of Greater and Lesser Armenia.
- Iranica, "Armenia and Iran"
- (Artashes' reconquers Armenian lands with Armenian population.)
- Artaxias and Zariadris of Sophene who may perhaps have been close relatives, joined forces to conquer a vast area. (...list of conquests, including Caspiane...) The peoples who were thus brought together in the kingdoms of Armenia and Sophene all spoke one and the same language: Armenian (Strabo, ibid.); yet imperial Aramaic (with a quite strong admixture of Persian terms) was still the language of the government and the court, a survival of Achaemenid practices in Armenia down to the first half of the 2nd century B.C.
- (The areas had been previosly conquered by Media from Armenia)
- Artabazanes, the satrap of Media Atropatene (Aturpatakan), though forced to submit to Antiochus II in 220 B.C., appears to have considerably extended his domain by seizing parts of eastern and northern Armenia (Polybius 5.55.7).
- Strabo, Geography
- (Strabo confirming that Artashes' conquests had previously been part of an originally larger Armenia)
- In ancient times Greater Armenia ruled the whole of Asia, after it broke up the empire of the Syrians, but later, in the time of Astyages, it was deprived of that great authority by Cyrus and the Persians, although it continued to preserve much of its ancient dignity
- Pliny the Elder (1st c AD), "The Natural history ", 6.39:
- (Kura is still the boundary in 1st c AD)
- ..the tribe of Albanians settled on the Caucasian mountains, reaches ... the river Kir making border of Armenia and Iberia
- Claudius Ptolemy (2nd c AD), "Geography" 5.12:
- (Kura is sitll the boundary in 2nd c AD)
- "Armenia is located from the north to a part of Colchida, Iberia and Albania along the line, which goes through the river Kir (Kura)"
- Movses Khorenatsi (5th c AD), "History of Armenia"
- (Paytakaran belonged to Armenia in early 4th c. AD.)
- Трдат проявлял великую твердость в деле поддержания веры и нравов, особенно в отношении тех, кто проживал в отдаленных частях его государства. Поэтому приходят должностные лица северо-восточных краев, управители дальнего города по названию Пайтакаран
- Trdat [king of Armenia] was firm in upholding the faith, especially among those who lived in the farthest parts of his state. Therefore official persons come to him from the north-easterns areas, rulers of the far-away city of Paytakaran.
- Hovhannes Draskhanakertsi (10th-11th cc AD), "History of Armenia," translated in 1984 by Margarita Darbinyan-Melikyan (the translator used by Grandmaster as a source)
- (Paytakaran was Armenian province in early 4th c. The excerpt talks about its rebellion, and the brief (less than 1 year) usuping of the Armenian throne by its governor. Footnote states the interpetation of the translator, who believes the governor (Sanatruk) and the Albanian king (Sanesan) were the same person.)
- После смерти святого Трдата нечестивый второй Санатрук,* родом из дома Аршакуни, которого Трдат поставил правителем города Пайтакаран,** взбунтовался и сам возложил на себя корону.
- ^ Санатрук Аршакуни (он же Санесан, по Фав. Буз.) — царь мазкутов (одно из кавказских племен, обитавшее на северо-западном побережье Каспийского моря, южнее устья р. Самур, на территории, носившей название Чор, Чол. См: Тревер К. Очерки по истории и культуре Кавказской Албании. М.—Л., 1959, с. 191), при царе Трдате III был также бдешхом северных и восточных областей царства Великой Армении — Гукарка, Алванка, Вирка, Пайтакарана. Царство мазкутов представляло постоянную угрозу для Великой Армении, с которой граничило по р. Куре, и Атрпатакана (см. прим. 2 к гл. XIX). Так, около 338 г. Санатрук Аршакуни, по наущению Сасанидов, стремившихся восстановить свои политические позиции в Закавказье, вторгся в пределы Армении, намереваясь как Аршакид и, следовательно, законный претендент на армянскую корону воцариться в Армении. Эти события и нашли свое отражение в Житии св. Григориев в передаче Фав. Буз. и Мов. Хор. (Еремян С. Страна «Махелония» надписи Кааба-и-Зардушт. ВДИ. М., 1967, 4, с. 56—57). Иов. Драсх. называет его «вторым», имея в виду, очевидно, что до него упоминается еще один Санатрук, племянник царя Абгара. (См. прим. 1 к гл. VII).
- ^^ Пайтакаран — город, центр одноименного наханга, близ современного Орен-Кала на Мильской равнине. В 338 г. Паитакаран «стал временной столицей Албанского царства, здесь находилась резиденция мазкутских Аршакидов
- After the death of saint Trdat, second Sanatruk from the house of Arshakuni, whom Trdat had placed as the ruler of Paytakaran, rebelled and crowned himself.
- (footnotes by the translator)
- ^Sanatruk Arshakuni (or Sanesan, in Pavstos Buzand)-- king of Mazkuts (one of Caucasian tribes in the north-western coast of Caspian sea. During king Trdat III, he was also the bdeshkh (governor) of the northern and eastern provinces of Greater Armenia (Gugark, Aluank, Virk, Paytakaran). The Mazkut kingdom was always a threat for Greater Armenia, with whom it had the border along river Kura. Around 338 ad, Sanatruk invaded Armenia, intending, as an Arshakid and thus a lawful inherittor of the Armenian throne, to become king of Armenia.
- ^^ Paytakaran--city, center of the same-named province, near today's Oren-Kala. In 338 the city became temporary capital of the Albanian kingdom; the residence of Mazkut Arshakids was in the city.
- Pavstos Buzand (4th-5th cc AD), "History of Armenia"
- (Kura still being the boundary in early 4th c. More on Paytakaran's brief rebellion against Armenia in 338 AD, and Albanian king's support for the rebellion):
- О разбойничьем набеге царя мазкутов на землю, подвластную армянскому царю, о происшедшей большой войне и о том, как он погиб вместе со своим войском.
- В то время маскутский царь Санесан, сильно разгневавшись, проникся враждой к сородичу своему, армянскому царю Хосрову, и собрал он все войска, — гуннов, похов, таваспаров, хечматаков, ижмахов, гатов и глуаров, гугаров, шичбов и чилбов, и баласичев и егерсванов, и несметное множество других разношерстных кочевых племен, все множество войск, которым он повелевал. Он перешел свою границу, большую реку Куру и наводнил армянскую страну.
- About attacks of the Mazkut king on the lands under the dominion of the Armenian king, and about how he died with his troops.
- Mazkut king Sanesan, became filled with animosity against his blood-relative Armenian king Khosrov, and gathered all the troops--huns, pokhs, tavaspars, khechmataks, izhmakhs, gats, and gluars, gugars, shichbians, and chilbians, and balasichians, egersvans, and multitutde of other nomadic tribes, over whom he ruled. He crossed the border, the great river Kura, and flooded the Armenian country.
- http://www.vehi.net/istoriya/armenia/buzand/03.html (Book III.7)
- Movses Khorenatsi (5th c ad), "History of Armenia"
- (About Sanatruk's rebellion in Paytakaran, Albanian invasion, and quick defeat (all in 338 AD).
- В дни Хосрова жители севера Кавказа, узнав о его малодушии и лености и особенно поддавшись подстрекательствам Санатрука, совершавшимся по тайному повелению персидского царя Шапуха, объединившись, выступили в поход и огромной толпой до двух десятков тысяч человек достигли середины нашей страны. ... Этот случай побудил врагов к бегству, нашей же рати придал силы для победы. ... После этого Хосров, узнав, что персидский царь Шапух заодно с (его) врагами отменяет заключенный с ним мир и удерживает (предназначенную) ему частичную дань, отдавая ее императору; призвав греческие войска, он противится персидскому царю.
- In the days of Khosrov (Armenia's king), inhabitants of northern Caucasus, provoked by Sanatruk and Shapuh (Persia's king), invaded our country. ... (Description of the battle) That events made the enemy run away, and gave our side strength for victory. ... After that Khosrov ... turns against Shapuh.
- Hovhannes Draskhanakertsi (10th-11th cc AD), "History of Armenia," translated in 1984 by Margarita Darbinyan-Melikyan
- (Khosrov's death in 338, putting Albanian invasion, Paytakaran's rebellion, and their defeat, all in one year--338)
- Хосров II Котак (Короткий, ок. 330—338) — сын царя Трдата III.
- Khosrov II Kotak, 330-338 -- son of Trdat III
- http://www.armenianhouse.org/draskhanakertsi/history-ru/chapter11_20.html (footnote by translator in chapter 10)
- Pavstos Buzand (4th-5th cc AD), "History of Armenia"
- (Kura being the Albanian/Armenian boundary through the end of 4th c. AD.)
- Реку Куру сделал границей между своей страной и Албанией, как было раньше.
- He [Armenian General Mamikonyan] made Kura the border with Albania, as it was before.
3) To exclude statements about Caspians or Parcies living in Paytakaran (comment--One of the names used for Paytakaran by medieval Armenian historians--Kaspk or Kaspits country--merely denoted a name of an area, and not a population of Kasps)
- Strabo (1st c. BC)
- (At the time Armenian historians used the term "Kaspits country" or "Kaspk," the Caspians had disappeared centuries ago--hence the name merely denotes a geographic area.)
- To the country of the Albanians belongs also the territory called Caspiane, which was named after the Caspian tribe, as was also the sea; but the tribe has now disappeared.
4) Correct reading of Pavsos Buzand's reference to Paytakaran (to exclude statement about Parcies living in Paytakaran.).
- Armenian Soviet Encyclopedia, v. 12, p. 301, published 1987
- (The official consensus among Soviet Armenian historians, as opposed to an opinion of a single Armenian translator)
- Paytakaran ... Pavstos Buzand also calls it Parsits Ashkarh (country of Persia).
5) To exclude statement that Paytakaran was in Albania. The quotes explain the difference between Caucasian Albania and the Armenian province of Aluank, and why Movses Kaghankatvatsi in 7th c. AD states that the city of Paytakaran was in Aluank.
- Hovhannes Draskhanakertsi (10th-11th cc AD), "History of Armenia," translated in 1984 by Margarita Darbinyan-Melikyan (same translator used by Grandmaster as a source).
- Алванк — так, в отличие от греко-римской Албании, начиная с марзпанского периода, в армянских источниках называлось междуречье Куры и Аракса с провинциями Арцах и Утик, от крепости Хунаракерт (Хнаракерт) и до места их слияния. После раздела Армении в 387 г. между Византией и Персией персидские власти объединили территории Кавказской Албании и восточных нахангов Армении Арцаха и Утика в одну административную единицу— Албанию под управлением персидского наместника — марзпана. Однако уже после восстании 450—451 г. и 480 г. Персия была вынуждена предоставить Армении значительную независимость, поставив ее правителем шихана Ваана Мамиконяна. В это же время в Арцахе и Утике местный армянский княжеский род Араншахиков.
- [footnote] Aluank--contrary to the Greco-Roman Albania, starating with the marzpanate period (5th c), Armenian sources call the region of Kur and Arax rivers Aluank. After division of Armenia in 387, these eastern areas of Armenia (Artsakh and Utik) and Caucasian Albania were joined to create a marzpanate called Albania, governed by Persian marzpan. However, after the rebellion of 450-451 and 48, Armenia gained greater independence, and at the same time in Artsakh and Utik the local Armenian noble house of Aranshahiks ruled.
- Russian professor Shnirelman, "Albanian Myth"
- (critique of attempts of Azeri historians to equate ancient Albania with the Armenian province Aluank; the difference between two).
- В то же время полностью игнорировался тот факт, что многое в этом тексте было заимствовано из армянских источников и что «страна Агванк» Мовсеса Каганкатваци была вовсе не идентична изначальной Кавказской Албании. Короче говоря, над рукописью Мамедовой, очевидно, основательно поработал ее редактор З.М. Буниятов.
- At the same time [Azeri historians Mamedova and Buniatov] completely ignored the fact that much of Movses Kaghankatvatsi's work was based on earlier Armenian chronicles, and that his "country Aluank" of Movses Kaghankatvatsi was not the same as the original Caucasian Albania
