Talk:Tigranes the Great

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Armenia Portal
Tigranes the Great is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to better improve and organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]
Greece Portal
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece, an attempt to expand, improve and standardize the content and structure of articles related to Greece.
If you would like to participate, you can improve Tigranes the Great, or sign up and contribute in a wider array of articles like those on our to do list. If you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. (comments)
??? This article has not yet been prioritized.


Contents

[edit] Comment

In the section "HALLEY'S COMET", instead of "according to the Armenian and Italian researchers" should be written the correct information and the journal reference, namely: "according to V.G.Gurzadyan and R.Vardanian, "Astronomy & Geophysics, Journal of Royal Astronomical Society, London, vol. 45 (4, August), p.4.06, 2004; http://www.arxiv.org/abs/physics/0405073

[edit] Answer

Because it's a mistake. Tigrane II is the only one known in History, that's why he is called I by some people. But Tigrane The Great is Tigrane II

[edit] Question

Why is this ruler called Tigranes I in Wikipedia, when the books I've been reading call him Tigranes II? Is this because he was the first Tigranes to rule the Seleucid empire, but not the first to rule Armenia? Does anyone know? Isomorphic 03:17, 25 Sep 2004 (UTC)


[edit] In regards to recent edits by Azeri Turkish editors

The following passage from Iranica clarifies on their evident confusion:

The Armenian historical tradition (found chiefly in Ps.-Movsês Xorenac'i) represented the earlier, national Artaxiads as also a branch of the Iranian Arsacids, and the Armenian Arsacids as their direct continuation, creating thus an imbroglio from the effects of which Armenian historiography has only recently succeeded in freeing itself. A list of the Arsacid kings of Armenia will be found at the end of this article. http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/ashkanian/arsacid_armenia.htm --Eupator 19:36, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In regards to ethnic Armenian editors' confusion

It seems like some confuse Arsacid/Arsakuni dynasty with Artaxiads. Of course, Tigranes II Great was an Artaxiad, and was ethnic Parthian. Hence, that reference to his true ethnicity must stay in the article.

Secondly, one article cannot disprove tonnes of references and writings by all relevant Armenian chroniclers, as well as ancient Byzantin historians and modern Armenian scholars. --AdilBaguirov 05:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The opinion of medieval chronicles isn't very important, as they are hardly reliable, treating often of things that happened more than a thaousand years ago; but Moses of Chorene is another thing. Regards the "tons of modern Armenian scholars", we need some names; and, more important, some modern non-Armenian scholars.--Aldux 10:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
I have to respectfully disagree – the medieval chroniclers are important if they are properly translated and edited, have substantial commentaries by modern day scholars, and coincide with what several other contemporary and modern sources say. And the information about Tigranes II Great being ethnic Parthian is fully in accordance and compliance with these requirements and standards. In fact, as I said, in Armenian schools, at least universities, they do teach about Parthian ethnicity of Tigranes II and all other rulers of Armenia from his dynasty, as well as about all the other non-Armenian dynasties (a separate topic of discussion). Thus it is surprising to witness the reaction. Of course, they were still kings of Armenia, and very often ruling dynasties were not of the same ethnicity as majority of the population -- e.g., Russia, India, China, etc.

Yet since it seems like the editors of this page genuinely didn’t know this face, here are plenty of Russian-language sources, which were either published in Moscow or Yerevan by authoritative Russian and Armenian editors in the Soviet era, or quality translations, with comments and using multiple manuscripts, from grabar (ancient Armenian) into Russian by ethnic Armenian scholars.

To begin with, see: 1) K.C.Melik-Oghajanyan, “History of Agaphangelos and his oral folk primary sources. – Marr and questions of Armenian studies”, Yerevan, 1968. [К. С. Мелик-Оганджанян. История Агафангела и его народные устные первоисточники. - Марр и вопросы арменоведения. Ер., 1968], http://www.kroraina.com/armen_ca/agafangel_istoriografija.html

It should be noted that Agaphangelos, the very first historian of Armenia, was also not Armenian, but Greek, and in fact wrote his book first in Greek.

2) Then see more about ethno-national composition of Armenia under Tigranes II, where ethnic Armenians were in minority, especially in the cities, and Tigranes’ army and even deputy were either also Parthian, or Greek, etc: Редакционная коллегия. Закавказье и сопредельные страны в период эллинизма./История Древнего мира. Расцвет Древних обществ.- М.:Знание, 1983 - с.399-414, http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000002/st21.shtml

3) "Всемирная история" Том 1. под ред. Ю.П. Францева, Государственное издательство политической литературы, 1953. http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000017/st060.shtml http://ancient.ru/topics/data/armenia/armenia_02.htm

4) Among medieval Armenian language chroniclers, it were not only Movses of Khorene, but also episcope Sebeos (VII century) and catholicos Hovaness Draskhanakertci (Ованес Драсханакертци, “История Армении”, Ереван,1984г. Перевод с древнеармянского М.О. Дарбинян-Меликян).

5) Finally, there are two non-Armenian medieval chroniclers, one Byzantine Procopius of Caesarea, who wrote in 560 AD, and the other Jewish chronicler, Joseph Flavius (37-100 AD)

http://www.miriobiblion.narod.ru/prokopij/p_aed3.htm

КНИГА ТРЕТЬЯ [43]

"Когда же Александр Македонский низложил персидского царя, то персы, покорившись ему, оставались спокойными, но парфяне восстали против македонян и, победив их на войне, изгнали их оттуда и захватили область вплоть до реки Тигра; в дальнейшем, в продолжение пятисот лет персидская держава находилась под их властью, до тех пор пока императором у римлян не стал Александр, сын Маммеи. 6. И тогда кто-то из парфянских царей поставил царем над Арменией брата своего по имени Арзака, как передает нам об этом история Армении. Пусть же никто не думает, что Арзакиды родом армяне. 7. Ввиду родственных отношений они лет пятьсот сохраняли между собой мир. 8. И вот армянский царь жил в так называемой Великой Армении, издревле будучи подданным римского самодержца, с течением же времени у какого-то армянского царя Арзака родилось два сына, по имени Тигран и Арзак. 9. Когда он собираются окончить дни своей жизни, он составил завещание и преемником своей власти сделал обоих сыновей, назначив каждому власть не над одинаковой областью, но оставив Тиграну в четыре раза большую область. 10. Распределив так свое государство, Арзак-отец ушел из этой жизни, Арзак же сын, негодуя в огорчении, что ему пришлось испытать такое унижение своей власти, перенес решение дела на суд римского самодержца, надеясь, что какими-либо средствами он лишит брата царства и несправедливое по отношению к нему решение отца он сделает недействительным. 11. Власть над римлянами имел тогда Феодосий, еще очень юный сын Аркадия. Боясь наказания со стороны императора, Тигран отдал себя в руки персов, передав им и свое государство, сочтя лучшим для себя быть у персов частным человеком, чем договориться по справедливости с братом и вместе с ним правильно и законно царствовать над Арменией. 12. Не в меньшей степени и Арзак, боясь козней со стороны брата и персов, отказался от своей части царства в пользу императора Феодосия на известных условиях, о которых я говорил в книгах о войнах.[44] 13. Некоторое время земли Армении были предметом войн между римлянами и персами; в конце концов они согласились на том, чтобы часть Тиграна принадлежала персам, а частью Арзака владели римляне. 14. На этих условиях между ними был заключен взаимный договор, и в дальнейшем римский император посылал в Армению начальником кого и когда хотел. 15. Этого начальника еще и в мое время называли «комитом Армении». 16. Но так как подобного рода власть не могла отразить нападения врагов, так как у нее не было регулярных военных отрядов, то император Юстиниан обратил внимание на то, что управление Арменией так плохо организовано, и потому она является легкодоступной для нападения варваров; потому он снял оттуда эту администрацию и назначил главнокомандующего [45] для Армении и дал ему регулярных военных отрядов такое количество, сколько было достаточно для отражения набегов неприятелей. 17."

ПРИМЕЧАНИЯ 43. Хорошим комментарием к этой книге может служить работа Н. Адонц, Армения в эпоху Юстиниана. Петербург, 1915. 44. См. Прокопий, «Война с персами», II, 3, 25. 45. Magister militum.

По изданию: Прокопий Кесарийский. Война с готами. О Постройках. - М.: Арктос - Вика-пресс, 1996. Перевод С.П. Кондратьева. Перевод дан по изданию Haury, Procopii Caesariensis Opera omnia, vol. III, 2. Lips., 1916.


ИОСИФ ФЛАВИЙ (37-100) ИУДЕЙСКАЯ ВОЙНА

Предисловие автора

1. Иудейская война с римлянами‚ превосходящая не только нами пережитые‚ но почти все известные в истории войны между государствами и государствами и между народами и народами‚ до сих пор описана была в духе софистов и такими людьми‚ из которых одни‚ не будучи сами свидетелями событий‚ пользовались неточными‚ противоречивыми слухами‚ другие же‚ хотя и были очевидцами‚ искажали факты либо из лести к римлянам‚ либо из ненависти к евреям‚ вследствие чего их сочинения заключают в себе то порицание‚ то похвалу‚ но отнюдь не действительную и точную историю. А потому я‚ Иосиф‚ сын Маттафии‚ еврей из Иерусалима и из священни- ческого рода‚ сам воевавший сначала против римлян и служивший невольным свидетелем всех позднейших событий‚ принял решение дать народам Римского государства на греческом языке такое же описание войны‚ какое я раньше составил для варваров внутренней Азии на нашем родном языке.


Первая книга ГЛАВА ВОСЕМНАДЦАТАЯ Взятие Иерусалима Иродом и Сосием. Смерть Антигона.-Отношение Ирода к Клеопатре.

5. До этих пор Антоний беспрекословно исполнял все ее требования; но убийство храбрых людей и выдающихся царей он считал преступлением. Зато он уклонялся от близкой дружбы с ними и отнял у них для Клеопатры обширные местности. Так были отняты и уступлены Клеопатре пальмовый лес возле Иерихона, где добывается бальзам, и все города, лежавшие по ту сторону реки Элевтера, за исключением Тира и Сидона. Сделавшись владетельницей этих последних, она сопровождала Антония в его походе против парфян до Евфрата и прибыла через Апамею и Дамаск в Иудею. Богатыми подарками Ирод смягчил ее враждебное расположение и взял у нее на аренду оторванные от его царства владения за 200 талантов в год, после чего он со всевозможными почестями проводил ее до Пелузия. Спустя некоторое время появился Антоний из парфянского похода,он вез с собой пленным сына Тиграна, Артавазда, как подарок Клеопатре, так что вместе со всеми сокровищами и всей добычей ей предоставлен был также парфянин.

[edit] Protected and WP:RS

Gentlemen, I have protected the page because of the slow edit warring that was going on. I would suggest that you discuss the issue here. Provide reliable sources (just a name is not enough, cite the boook, article or what ever in detail) for you claims and counter claims. Just inserting and removing stuff is not going to work, and is very annoying. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 21:48, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I have provided all the sources on this talk page already -- what else do you need? Even one such source is enough -- and I've provided almost a dozen, with URLs, all from either Armenian, or Jewish, or Byzantim, or Soviet-Russian sources. If the Armenian editor dislikes this, it is not grounds to ignore this well-known evidence. Once again, upon the first request I've already provided all the references and one has to simply follow those links to verify it. Thus, my edit has to be restored. --AdilBaguirov 22:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
Not one of the sources provided claims that Artaxiads had any Parthian blood. One of the sources, Moses of Khorene, in History of Armenia (written between the 5th and 8th centuries AD) attempts to connect Arsacids with older Artaxiads to glorify the Christian Arsacids. The sources I provided (specifically Iranica) and can provide numerous others all specify that this was not so. In additon, only the first few Arshakunis were Parthian, all later Arshakunis were Armenian. It's like calling Peter Bagration an Armenian!--Eupator 23:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
This is again a blatant lie by user Eupator! he probably thinks that by such primitive tactic of denying the undeniable he will achieve success. Tigranes was Parthian, as was his entire dynasty, and majority of population was Parthian, as well as Greek and others, and language used was Parthian in his court and indeed by most people (not only modern Armenians, but even grabar, the ancient Armenian, didn't exist yet). --AdilBaguirov 00:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps in lalaland. Refrain from personal attacks, next time i'll report you.--Eupator 01:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, here's the English translation of the selected sentences from the Russian-language sources I've provided before:

1) Flavius Josephus (37-100 AD), "Jewish War", Book I, Chapter 18.

"After a certain time, Anthony appeared from Parthian march, he carried with himself the captured [POW] son of Tigran, Artavazd, as a gift to Cleopatra, so along that with all the treasure and the whole bounty to her, the Parthian was also given."

The Armenian website (http://www.armenianchurchyouth.com/heritage/history/vartan/events.html) estimates that date being 34BC: "55-34 B.C. Reign of Artavazd II in Armenia fights as an ally of Parthians, is captured and exiled by Mark Anthony."

Obviously, if the son of Tigran II Great was Parthian, so was his father. Next:

I have to question this conclusion because the son of Tigran II had another parent: his mother. What nationality was she? Armenian? And if this dynasty continued to take for their wives daughters of the local Armenian nobility, wouldn't there come a point when they must be considered Armenian? -- llywrch 16:43, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Nationality is passed through the father in the Caucasus and most of the world. On the top of that, Tigranes' mother was not Armenian, as there is no evidenceof that and no need for that -- virtually the entire leadership of Armenia, majority of cities populations, etc., were non Armenian. The non-Armenian kings were slowly Armenianized only later in ADs. There is a book in Armenia, written by an Armenian of course, which shows that at least 1/3 of queens of Armenia were non-Armenian in origin. But anyways - Tigranes was not Armenian, as all specialized research affirms he was of Iranian or Parthian origin. --AdilBaguirov 12:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Well, your statement surprises me! You may be right about the practice in Africa or the Far East, but in my experience (admittedly limited to Europe and North America), nationality is passed along from both parents. But in any case, could you permit the possibility of another opinion on the matter, especially as you admit that there is "no evidence" about Tigranes' mother's nationality? A statement along the lines of saying that he was "of Pathenian ancestory" would undoubtedly satisfy both schools of thought on the matter.
FWIW, I do happen to own an English translation of Sebeos' Armenian History, & would be happy to provide confirmation & the necessary citation information on this matter -- or for any article that he might be relevant to. -- llywrch 05:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

2) Procopius Caesarea's "De Aedificiis" ("On Buildings"), Book III, taken from http://www.miriobiblion.narod.ru/prokopij/p_aed3.htm, which is electronic text of the book: Прокопий Кесарийский. Война с готами. О Постройках. - М.: Арктос - Вика-пресс, 1996. Перевод С.П. Кондратьева. Перевод дан по изданию Haury, Procopii Caesariensis Opera omnia, vol. III, 2. Lips., 1916.

"6. And then someone from Parthian kings has put as a king of Armenia his brother, by the name of Arzak, as the history of Armenia tells us about. Let nobody think, that Artaxiads are Armenian by birth. 7. In view of being related, they for five hundred years maintained peace among themselves."

3) From: "Всемирная история" Том 1. под ред. Ю.П. Францева, Государственное издательство политической литературы, 1953. http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000017/st060.shtml http://ancient.ru/topics/data/armenia/armenia_02.htm

"The population of the cities in Armenia was mixed: here lived Hellenic, Syrians, Jews, Persians. Armenians were far from forming dominant part of the cities' population [i.e., Armenians were in definite minority at least in the cities]. The inhabitants of cities alongside with craft and trade also concerned themselves with animal husbandry. Tigran, following the example of Assyrian and Urartean kings, used the mass driving away of the inhabitants of conquered Hellenic cities, resettling with them old and new cities....By Tigran's time, Armenian nobility was subjected/underwent strong Iranization, which begun as far back as Achamenid period; on this indicate, in particular, are the names of the kings from dynasty of Artaxiads: Artashes, Artavazd, Tigran."

This is very similar to what we read in the other academic source, Редакционная коллегия. Закавказье и сопредельные страны в период эллинизма./История Древнего мира. Расцвет Древних обществ.- М.:Знание, 1983 - с.399-414, http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000002/st21.shtml

4) I don't want to go into translating Movses of Khorene, episcope Sebeos and catholicos Hovaness Draskhanakertci, among other ancient Armenian historians, but they all clearly say that the Arsacids (of which Tigran was a descendant) were Parthian (sometime they confuse Parthian with Persian - a typical error, and one that is noted as an error by Armenian historians, including from this edition that I use, by G.Sarkisyan, C.Arevshatyan, Yerevan, 1990). --AdilBaguirov 10:56, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's an English language source which once again concurs with all the Armenian, Jewish and Byzantin and Soviet sources, both primary and modern, about Tigranes II Great and his dynasty being Parthian (it's from: http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0370.html, note that it makes it clear that there is a general confusion of readers with names of those dynasties, and some conflicting info about who ruled when and who was legitimate ruler and who was not, (also note that they bring my point that "King of Armenia" is imprecise, and means Kings in Armenia, not "ethnically Armenian kings"):

"The expression "kings of Armenia" is in many instances vague, and leads to erroneous conclusions, especially with regard to the Arsacidae. The trans­actions of the Romans with Armenia will present much less difficulties if the student will remember that he has to do with kings in Armenia, and kings of Armenian origin reigning in countries beyond the limits of Armenia. The history of the Arsa­cidae cannot be well understood without a previous knowledge of the other dynasties before and after that of the Arsacidae; for Armenian kings were known to the Greeks long before the accession of the Arsacidae ; and the annals of the Eastern em­pire mention many important transactions with kings of Armenia, belonging to those dynasties, which reigned in this country during a period of almost a thousand years after the fall of the Arsa­cidae. But as any detailed account would be out of place here, we can give only a short sketch.

I. Dynasty of Hai'g, founded by Hai'g, the son of Gathlas, who is said to have lived b. c. 2107. Fifty-nine kings belong to this dynasty, and among them Zarmai'r, who, according to the Ar­menian historians, assisted the Trojans at the siege of their city, where he commanded a body of As­syrians ; Dikran or Tigranes, a prince mentioned by Xenophon (Cyrop. iii. 1, v. 1, 3, viii. 3, 4); and Wane, the last of his house, who fell in a battle with Alexander the Great in b. c. 328. The names of the fifty-nine kings, the duration of their reigns, and some other historical facts, mixed up with fabulous accounts, are given by the Ar­menian historians.

II. Seven Governors appointed by Alexander, and after his death by the Seleucidae, during the period from 328 to 149 b. c.

III. Dynasty of the Arsacidae, from b. c. 149 to a. d. 428. See below.

IV. Persian Governors, from a. d. 428 to 625.

V. Greek and Arabian governors, from A. d. 632 to 855.

VI. Dynasty of the Pagratidae, from 855 to 1079. The Pagratidae, a noble family of Jewish origin, settled in Armenia in b. c. 600, according to the Armenian historians."

Then on: http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0371.html :

"On the other hand the Romans, with all the pride and haughtiness of conquerors, consider their instruments or allies alone as the legitimate kings, and they generally speak of the Arsacidae as a family imposed upon Armenia by the Parthians. As to the origin. of the Armenian Arsacidae, both the Romans and Armenians agree, that they were descended from the dynasty of the Parthian Arsacidae, an opinion which was so generally established, that Procopius (De Aedificiis Justi?iiam9 iii. 1) says, that nobody had the slightest doubt on the fact."

From: Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, page 362. --AdilBaguirov 19:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not Parthian, but Orontid origin ?

Note in this argument, I am just trying to find the truth and definitely to do not want to get involved more than what I have said, since I like both the caucus Azerbaijanis and caucus Armenians as my brothers. Also recently I have befriended both of you guys and I think in any entery what matters the most is ultimately the truth.

The Parthian origin is not accepted by the most updated sources. But another Iranian origin is probable [1]. I am very persistent on using the latest available information and research and updated research usually is given preference over materials from 30 or 50 or 100 years ago. Old sources like Moses of Khoren have many wrong information and it is up to scholars of today to decide their veracity. Nevertheless, many of the kings of Armenia and Cacausian Albania were of Iranian origin and at the same time they were Armenian and Albanians. Also many kings of Iran or Persia were of Turkic origin (Qajars or Safavids), but they were also Iranians. So I am not sure what the argument is here. I think the phrase King of Armenia and also of Iranian origin could be included. Are we talking about an area or ethnicity. But the validity of Parthian I find improbable in the latest sources. Perhaps we should just let the above Iranica article speak for itself. --Ali doostzadeh 22:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It can be included in regards to Artaxias I and in the Artaxiad Dynasty page, ie: the names were of probable Iranic origin. Not in Tigran's page. The names Artaxias and Zariadres are of 100% Iranian origin but not Parthian, which of course doesn't mean that they were not Armenian. In the post Median/Achaemenid period many Anatolians, Greeks and Armenians had Iranian names. In addition Artaxias caimed descent from the Orontids in the border stones left by him.--Eupator 22:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Ali, there is no disagreement with methods, and thank you for noting an additional credible source, but one Iranica cannot and does not disprove all the sources I've cited -- Movses might have gotten it wrong (and mixing up Persians with Parthians is easy, it happens in many authors), but what about Flavius, who lived just a century after Tigranes? Or what about Procopius? They often didn't know about each other. And what about all those other modern books? A compromise language can be: "...either of Parthian or Iranian ethnicity" (not origin, but ethnicity) in relation to Tigranes II Great and the whole dynasty and each and every single king from that dynasty. Of course, all those kings would still be Armenian via being kings of Armenia -- no one ever questioned that, or their belonging to the history of Armenia and its people. Indeed, I don't know why was this made into such an argument. --AdilBaguirov 09:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Unacceptable. Google scholarship is not for an encyclopedia.--Eupator 11:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Personally I also feel the thing is being discussed in the wrong place; all these questions should be treated in the article Artaxiad Dynasty, since the discussed themes involve ALL kings of the dynasty, not just Tigranes.--Aldux 12:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


Hi Adil, I did not find anything yet in Flavius (The Jewish War) that can be considered sound on this matter. Here is the actual book: [2]. The only title I see from Flavius is Tigranes, king of Armenia, but I was not able to find anything on Parthian descent that matches historical reality. I think this article explains it better: [3]. Tigran had a treacherous son (an ally of Parthians and a son in law of the Parthian King), and this son was probably the one that is called by Flavius as a Parthian, simply because he was the son in law of the Parthian king (which means he was considered Parthian royalty as well). Since this son was also a son in law of the Parthian king and also an ally of Parthians, this might explain Flavius's statement. On Procopius, here is the exact address: At one time, one of the kings of the Parthians appointed his brother, Arsaces by name, King of the Armenians, as the history of the Armenians declares. I say this lest anyone think the descendants of Arsaces are Armenians. 7At least peace continued between them for these five hundred years because of the kinship. p1818And the King of the Armenians had his seat in Greater Armenia, as it was called, being subject to the Roman Emperor from an early period; but at a later time two sons were born to a certain Arsaces, King of Armenia, Tigranes and Arsaces by name. 9When this king was about to reach the end of his life, he made a will in which he made both of the boys his successors in the kingdom, not assigning an equal weight of power to each of them, but leaving to Tigranes a four-fold portion.[4]
First off, let me thank you Ali for conducting such good research. The English translations done in those books and that done by myself are very close and identical, if anything.
On Flavius: here's how I translated the relevant passage (I did do it above) and how the translator of the book did it, from Flavius Josephus (37-100 AD), "War of the Jews", Book I, Chapter 18, http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2850.
Translated from Russian by A.B.: "After a certain time, Anthony appeared from Parthian march, he carried with himself the captured [POW] son of Tigran, Artavazd, as a gift to Cleopatra, so along that with all the treasure and the whole bounty to her, the Parthian was also given."
Translated by William Whiston: "Now it was not long after this that Antony was come back from Parthia, and led with him Artabazes, Tigranes's son, captive, as a present for Cleopatra; for this Parthian was presently given her, with his money, and all the prey that was taken with him."
Thus, as I said, multiple different chroniclers said the same thing, with Flavius' account being most important (along with Father of Armenian history, Movses of Khorene) because he lived a century after Tigranes and actually was born right about the time when Tigranes' dynasty was replaced. --AdilBaguirov 21:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


Now this statement by Procopius is not reliable simply because Arsaces was not the father nor brother of Tigranes and we can see how after 500-600 years, historians garbled up the genology of different kings. The Parthian theory as far as I know is not reliable and this is mentioned in the recent resources (Britannica, and two Iranica articles). The fact we must remeber about Moses of Khoren and Propicius is that they were about 500-600 years more recent than the actual Tigran and by that time, the Parthian royal families did control the area and such a mistake is likely. I have a friend who is an expert in Parthian history in Oxford and I can ask him more about this, but in the recent books published on Parthians, like Wolski, such a fact is not mentioned as far I have checked. Also I am not sure how valid it is to refer to a book from 1870 (Smith). As the statemet in the other Iranica article says: The Armenian historical tradition (found chiefly in Ps.-Movsês Xorenac'i) represented the earlier, national Artaxiads as also a branch of the Iranian Arsacids, and the Armenian Arsacids as their direct continuation, creating thus an imbroglio from the effects of which Armenian historiography has only recently succeeded in freeing itself.
For example Al-Yaqubi, one of the Arab historians claims that Daniel the Prophet was the uncle of Cyrus the Great. But such statements are not regarded seriously by historians. The following are closer to the actual dates of Tigran II (Strabo, XI, 14, 15; Justin, XXXVIII, 3, 1; Plutarch, Lucullus, 14, 15) and they mention him as an ally of Mithrades but an enemy of Parthia/Rome. Also see the following website which is the most academic website on Parthians: [5] as well as Frye's heritage of Persia. The website [6] is run by experts in the history of Parthians and they have listed Parthian kings and the latest accepted geneologies. The best proof we probably have the king was not Parthian, but of Ortonid origin, is the an inscription from Artaxias I himself. Professor Russel, an expert in Armenian-Iranian and Pahlavi history from University of Harvard remarks (See Encyclopedia Iranica, Artaxias I, p 659): Although Artaxias had overthrown Orontes, he based his legitimacy on his persumed Ortinid lineage; this attitude accords at one both Iranian and Armenian conceptions; certain status was inherited by blood, but could not be acquired..
You make very good points -- of course one has to be careful and cross-check and think logically when using such ancient texts. But that's what I did by invoking several ancient along with modern and not so old sources. We cannot dismiss Procopius only because he made such a small error as not know who Tigranes was in relation to the preceeding king(s) - son or nephew to Arsaces. I think no one knows definitively and I think this issue is not settled to this day. What is clear is that Tigranes was not an ethnic Armenian and that's the only thing that matters here. Of course it's known that many kings, Tigranes not an exception, claimed to be descendants of some previous royal house - just like Muslim dynasties, such as the Shirvanshah's, falsified their geneologies and pretended to descend from prophet's families or sultan Mahmud Ghaznevi engaging in similar activities, same with ruling dynasties of Armenia -- they all wanted to be descendants of Orontids and of mythical Hayk himself. Meanwhile, Procopius stresses his point, he is not mentioning it casually, but emphasizes it, thus showing us that he know what he is talking about. That's why I do not think we can leave this out, and a language in the encyclopedia should reflect both of those. What is sure is that this fact should be reflected in the Tigranes' page individually as well. Also, I saw only one relevant Iranica article, didn't see another one and one from Britannica, did I miss anything? --AdilBaguirov 21:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The three Iranica articles so far by three authors are: Shahbazi(Arsacid Dynasty of Armenia), Russel(Artaxias), Nigosian(Tigran II). These are very new sources and the authors are experts in their field. Russel for example is very well known Professor: [7]. Besides the Iranica and Encyclopedia Britannica, I mentioned the book about Parthians written by Joseph Wolsky, which is one of the most recent and comprehensive books on Parthian history. Also the very updated and academic [www.parthica.com]. The fact is that new materials does not reflect Parthian (Iranic) ancestery. Procopius did not make a small mistake but actually his statement about Tigran's son and father was wrong. That is a large mistake and by calling Tigran's father, the typical name Arsaces, he mixed up the geneology of Tigran II and that is why his statement is actually useless in this account. It is not suprising though, since he lived 600 years after Tigran II and by that time, the Parthian nobles did control the area and as you said many different dynasties have falsified their roots. (Ghaznavids claimed Sassanid, Shirvanshah claimed Bahram Chubin the Sassanid general and also the Prophet, the Safavid claimed the Prophet,..), the Buwayids claimed Sassanid... For example many Muslim historians have even mixed up Abraham and Zoroaster and one can not rely on these books, without extensive look at details, specially when other history books contradict it. For example Safavids call the Ottomans, "Romans". Whereas we know Ottomans where not Romans.. Sometimes the chronicles mistook different Iranic groups: Parthians/Persians/Medes. So is the case for the Parthian account, which is not accepted by modern scholars, one must look beyond one or two quotes and actually do analysis of all the texts as well coin analysis and archeological analysis and etc. --Ali doostzadeh 01:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


I think the Parthian is not acceptable, but what I did find in this research the Ortinid origin. The Eruandid theory needs to be given a more detailed look and perhaps a seperate article on the Artaxid would be useful.
All the best to everyone including Adil, Europator, Aldux..
--Ali doostzadeh 14:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I already added it to the article when I created it: Artaxiad Dynasty:
In these inscriptions Artaxias claims descent from the Orontid Dynasty: King Artaxias, the son of Orontid Zariadres.
PS: You really think adil has genuine interest in this? Please...--Eupator 15:43, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the article on [Artaxiad]. I think the Iranica article is also good and can be added as a source. Since, I am not perfect, I won't judge. But I hope we all come to an understanding. --Ali doostzadeh 16:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
what matters, eupator, is that Adil does not suppress information and try every dirty move in the bag to disallow the appearance of this information, which certainly deserves to be in, represents huge interest to the public and explains things well, puts history of the region in a context, as Parthians ruled a lot of lands at the time and our obligation to history is to accurately portray those facts. --AdilBaguirov 22:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
We shouldn't add this since there are numerous theories on his origins i found Kurdish too, but it obviously is not clear there's no reason to edit war because of this, if you really want to do good Adil leave the article alone. Artaxiad 21:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origins

You guys talking about me? :)

Anyway. Just to clarify some points. Tigran II was from Armenian king Artaxias' dynasty. Artaxias ruled from 200 BC, --at that time Parthians were no were near Armenia (seleukeans were), so there is no way Artaxians could be Parthian. Artaxias himself claimed origin from prior Armenian dynasty--Orontids. Now, some have claimed that Orontid kings had married women from Achemenid persian dynasty. So, from female line, it's possible that Orontids were related to Achemenids. But in general, they are considered Armenians. One of the last Greek kings married Spanish princless Sophia. Doesn't mean Greek kings were spanish.

In sum, there is no reliable evidence that Tigran was Parthian, and such info cannot be included on Wiki--TigranTheGreat 22:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Source:
http://www.amazon.com/Kurds-Mehrdad-Izady/dp/0844817279/ref=pd_ecc_rvi_2/102-7882212-8056940
Historian Prof Mehrdad R. Izady (Harvard University): Armenian King Tigran II was of kurdish origin --LACongress 06:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Izady is Kurdish and his radical fringe hypothesis not supported by anyone belong in a looney bin no in an encyclopedia.--Eupator 04:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


Hi and welcome to the discussion. I think the following article

is useful for everyone to read: ::[8]

Best way is to save it and then read it. Mainly up to 423 we have a lot of information. Note the above article also rejects the Parthian theory and I think by now, we can definitely say Tigran II was not a Parthian. I Would like your opinion after reading the above article and also the three Iranica articles mentioned on the Orontid origin, or at least mentinoing artaxiad dynasty in the article:
[http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/ashkanian/arsacid_armenia.htm]
[9]
[10]
Do you have any other very modern sources within the last 10-20 years or so?
--Ali doostzadeh 04:09, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotecting

There has been no discussion for a couple of weeks Unprotecting. --Tony Sidaway 18:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Greek name

I don't know if the editors of this article think it's relevant or not, but the Greek name for Tigranes the Great is Τιγράνης ο Μέγας (Tigranes o Megas). I didn't want to add it outright because I understand why some people may find it objectionable.--Domitius 00:46, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm Armenian and I don't find adding the Greek name objectionable. ROOB323 07:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll add it then.--Domitius 11:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Constant reverts by users Eupator and Nareklm (Artaxiad)

Users Eupator and Artaxiad (Nareklm) constantly revert the article, in order to supress the fully-sourced, reliable, verifiable and authoritative fact about Tigranes the Great, his Artaxiad Dynasty, and the dynasty preceeding his, the Orontids, being of Iranian origin, specifically, of Persian origin (and according to classical Armenian, Jewish, Byzantine sources, of Parthian origin). The modern English-language sources have been repeatedly provided, both by Armenian researchers -- one by Dr. Garsoian for Encyclopedia Iranica [11], and one by Dr. Kouymjian for his Armenian Studies Program at California State University in Fresno, with a grant from The Bertha and John Garabedian Charitable Foundation [12]. Don't remove this, it's the last time I say this before I start reporting you. --AdilBaguirov 03:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

It says that they claimed Persian descent, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they were in fact direct descendants of Persians. Regardless, your second source doesn't talk about Tigranes himself. Thus, you don't have any credible sources to support your claims here. Besides, a discussion about this has already been held before. -- Davo88 04:58, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
You might wanna clean-up your monitor screen, as well as understand that when one speaks of a dynasty, it includes all the representatives of that dynasty -- in which case if Orontid's and Artaxiad's were Persian, that automatically means that Tigranes the Great was Persian too. Also, since the latest Enc. Iranica article, authored by an Armenian researcher, says it very clearly: "TIGRAN II, THE GREAT, king of Armenia (r. 95-55 BCE). Tigran (Tigranes) II was the most distinguished member of the so-called Artaæe@sid/Artaxiad dynasty, which has now been identified as a branch of the earlier Eruandid dynasty of Iranian origin attested as ruling in Armenia from at least the 5th century B.C.E" [13].
This is re-inforced by Dr. Kouymjian, and indeed, as you noticed, by a MASSIVE number of relevant quotes that have been presented above. This is an established fact, and there is no way to supress it or oppose it. Do not engage in revart wars and do not try to oppose the inclusion of this important fact just for the sake of opposing. Refrain from counter-productive activity. --AdilBaguirov 06:30, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Read my response in the talk page of the article about the Orontids, and I also suggest you to reread the debate that took place a while ago about Tigranes' origins. -- Davo88 02:51, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I was the one that was discussing this "a while ago" on this page, so don't need to re-read it, whilst you were not present in the debates, so would benefit from reading it. Also, there is nothing in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Orontid_Dynasty that denies and counters the fact that Orontids, and Artaxiad's such as Tigranes, were of Persian/Iranian origin. Everyone wrote about it, including Father of Armenian history, Movses of Khorene. So there is nothing to deny the fact that the above two dynasties and all their representatives were of Iranian origin. --AdilBaguirov 06:00, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

There is also a reference from the Jewish Encyclopedia [14] which mentions that Tigranes the Great's family origin was Parthian: "When Vagharshak, brother of the Parthian king Mithridates I., and the founder of the Arshak dynasty, ascended the throne of Armenia 150 B.C." --AdilBaguirov 10:08, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

You shouldn't tell me what to do and not to do, Adil. Although Tigranes was taken hostage to Parthia, he was of Armenian origin. A simple search through google would take you through many sites that state that he was an Armenian emperor, and his conquest of regions like Syria and Lebanon are considered periods of Armenian rule. Britannica, for example, calls him an Armenian. [15] As such, I shall proceed by removing your distortions. -- Davo88 23:20, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Do that, and I will report you for vandalism -- my sources are clearly cited, presented, and verifiable, so you cannot remove them, and you certainly cannot accuse me of "distortions" (as if I published this info, or I am Tigrane's parent). Meanwhile, calling him "Armenian king/ruler/emperor/stratego/etc" has no ethnic connotation. This is further evidenced from Britannica's own article on Tigranes, where it never even once calls Armenian, but instead, king of Armenia [16]. And by the way, your Freudian slip above -- "he wasn't of Armenian origin" -- is best proof that you are engaging in edit warring and disruptive editing. --AdilBaguirov 02:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Do You think you gain super powers when you accuse people of vandalism? Artaxiad 02:17, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Good one Artaxiad. It's A Bird, It's A Plane, It's Adil accusing you of vandalism. [17] Vartanm 02:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
No, Adil. It is you who has branched out of articles related to past Armeno-Azeri conflicts and started to disrupively edit articles directly related to Armenians and Armenian history, rather than sticking to those related to Armenians and Azeris (such as Nagorno-Karabakh or Shushi). Your distortion of information related to Armenian emperors clearly shows that you are attempting to undermine Armenian history and presence in the region, and that you obviously have designs on quite a few Armenian-related articles (and I can cite further examples). So AdiliarBaguirov (how's that for a Freudian slip?), stop nitpicking and leave this article alone. Wikipedia administrators can now tell/warn/scold me to assume good faith. Happy edit warring, Hakob 02:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Adil, Britannica and many other sources clearly state that he was an Armenian king. By the way, you shouldn't blatantly take advantage of a mistake that I did while typing. Even if you ran out of arguments, try sticking to the topic instead of resorting to ad hominem for a change. -- Davo88 03:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you referring to this [[18]] the one he tried to change with Tabib. Vartanm 03:09, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Look at all this activity -- suddenly, so many editors appear, all making very "factual" arguments -- that is, not a single one of them cites any academic sources that disputes the Iranian origin of Tigranes the Great and his Artaxiad dynasty (which is because it's simply impossible to deny the truth). Instead, they do reverts. Insulting and attacking me, as well as revert warring, is not going to help any one of ideologically motivated editors. None of you can suppress the evidence, and it will be in the article as it should be. --AdilBaguirov 04:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In summary

In case anyone is interested why Mr. Baguirov is edit warring, please read the entire page and my comments as all this text in discussion page is regarding the same thing. Pay particular attention to Adil's personal attacks.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 04:08, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I have the same message to everyone -- see how a bunch of otherwise silent editors suddenly all appear at once, and place rubbish on Talk pages, do reverts to remove sourced verifiable information, and insult (see Hakob's "Adiliar" comment above). --AdilBaguirov 04:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Maybe, just maybe if you left Armenian articles alone you wouldn't get the attention of otherwise silent editors. I'm sure if I were to go and edit Azeri article which had nothing to do with Armenia, I would get the same response from otherwise silent Azeri users. Vartanm 06:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
First of all, neither you, nor other editors own these articles. Secondly, you and them constantly do edit Azerbaijan-related articles. Third, page about Tigranes the Great, as about Orontides, is very much relevant to Azerbaijan -- after all, Tigran conquered Atropatena briefly, and otherwise had some of the Azerbaijani lands as part of his empire and under the administration of Orontid satraps. Yet most importantly is that all my edits are 100% backed up by verifiable, academic sources -- which you try to suppress for some reason and engage in disruptive editing. --AdilBaguirov 06:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Because I made a comment about his dubious and often disruptive "contributions" I am deemed an otherwise silent editor and disruptive editor. Great.
Adil, you are a liar, and frankly, I don't like you, and I don't like what you have been doing to Armenia and Armenian-related articles (I remember you started with Koryun). So would you stop vandalizing these articles and calling other editors disruptive because they object to your often ridiculous changes?
I have tried to assume good faith, but your behavior and edits just prove you to be a pain in the neck. Happy editing, Hakob 07:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I never claimed anybody owns this or any other article. I just explained to you why an "otherwise silent user" would start contributing in a disrupted article. Secondly you just accused me of editing Azeri article. Please provide proof to your claim. Thirdly are those the same academic sources that you tried to change? Vartanm 07:41, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AdilBaguirov, Eupator, Vartanm, Davo88 et al and this article

He's been trying to change it since may 31 2006 First time "contributed" the article got locked in 10 days

  1. (cur) (last) 13:33, June 10, 2006 KimvdLinde (Talk | contribs) m (Protected Tigranes the Great: revert war [edit=sysop:move=sysop])
  2. (cur) (last) 13:23, June 10, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rvv)
  3. (cur) (last) 11:25, June 10, 2006 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (rvv)
  4. (cur) (last) 04:52, June 10, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rvv)
  5. (cur) (last) 23:50, June 9, 2006 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (Last warning to user Eupator -- do not vandalize and remove legitimate, fully cited and clear references.)
  6. (cur) (last) 19:31, June 9, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rvv, this is your last warning stop adding nonsense)
  7. (cur) (last) 16:02, June 9, 2006 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (Eupator, stop vandalizing by reverting and deleting legitimate reference of Tigranes II Great being Parthian!)
  8. (cur) (last) 14:43, June 9, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rvv)
  9. (cur) (last) 13:49, June 9, 2006 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (rv. - vandalism by User:Eupator. See Talk page.)
  10. (cur) (last) 03:39, June 9, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (vandalism)
  11. (cur) (last) 21:46, June 8, 2006 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (rv. -- all sources coincide and admit the same, Tigranes II Great, and his whole dynasty, were ethnic Parthians.)
  12. (cur) (last) 09:50, June 8, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (there is no such thing, cite your sources on the discussion page or look at Artaxiad Dynasty)
  13. (cur) (last) 09:48, June 8, 2006 Grandmaster (Talk | contribs) (Why are you removing verifiable info?)
  14. (cur) (last) 04:13, June 8, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (absolutely not)
  15. (cur) (last) 19:35, June 7, 2006 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (In addition to ALL relevant Armenian authors, others confirm it too -- such as Byzantin Procopius of Caesarea among others. Tigranes II Great's Parthian ethnicity is taught even in Armenian schools.)
  16. (cur) (last) 03:46, June 7, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (a medieval source attempting to connect Arshakunis to older Artashesians is INVALID)
  17. (cur) (last) 19:59, June 6, 2006 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (rv. It's not a legend, but confirmed by everyone starting from Movses of Khorene. It's well known that both Arsacids/Arshakuni and Artashesids dynasties were Parthian and so was Tigranes II Great)
  18. (cur) (last) 04:22, June 1, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (that's a legend fabricated to connext the later Arshakunis with earlier Kings)
  19. (cur) (last) 22:47, May 31, 2006 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (Tigran II was ethnic Parthian, as was his dynasty and kings of Armenia before and after him.)
  20. (cur) (last) 10:12, May 14, 2006 Eupator (Talk | contribs) m

Second mini revert war

  1. (cur) (last) 10:14, January 27, 2007 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rvv)
  2. (cur) (last) 10:02, January 27, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (rvv)
  3. (cur) (last) 09:49, January 27, 2007 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rvv)
  4. (cur) (last) 09:41, January 27, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) m
  5. (cur) (last) 14:44, January 23, 2007 Artaxiad (Talk | contrib

s) (rvv)

Third and the lates edit war started Feb 20

  1. (cur) (last) 08:37, February 20, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (added back Parthian or Persian origin of Tigranes and his whole family and dynasty)

Stop complaining about others, it is you who starts the edit wars. Thats why I reverted Vartanm 08:43, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice try, but this reveals that yourself and a few other ideologically motivated editors are supressing verifiable, academic and fully-sourced quotes from this page, as well as Koryun and Orontid Dynasty. If you want to stop a revert war and disruptive editing -- look in the mirror, as you guys have been in violation of the spirit and rules of Wikipedia. Let's add the "third mini revert war" as you dubbed it to this wonderful display of suppression of facts by you:
  1. (cur) (last) 07:50, March 2, 2007 Vartanm (Talk | contribs) (Back to last version of Euprator. It was discussed and agreement was never reached. AdilBaguirov don't engage in disruptive editing and revert warring!)
  2. (cur) (last) 06:45, March 2, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (back to the last version by Rayis --- Eupator, do not remove sourced, verifiable and discussed information, and don't engage in disruptive editing and revert warring!))
  3. (cur) (last) 04:02, March 2, 2007 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rv, per talk)
  4. (cur) (last) 01:43, March 2, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (rv. to the last version by Rayis --- Davo88, do not remove sourced, verifiable and discussed information, and don't engage in disruptive editing and revert warring!)
  5. (cur) (last) 23:23, March 1, 2007 Davo88 (Talk | contribs)
  6. (cur) (last) 18:55, March 1, 2007 Rayis (Talk | contribs) (Link fixing using AWB)
  7. (cur) (last) 03:45, February 28, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (Don't remove the well-sourced reference by Armenian researcher Garsoian in Encyclopedia Iranica that Tigranes and his dynasty was of Iranian origin. It's also supported by Dr. Kouymjian of FresnoSU)
  8. (cur) (last) 21:02, February 20, 2007 Artaxiad (Talk | contribs) (←Undid revision 109633501 by AdilBaguirov (talk))
  9. (cur) (last) 20:17, February 20, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (not true, no one did that, in fact one, Ali Dooszadeh, gave several references on the Persian origin of Tigranes and his dynasty. ONCE MORE - DON'T REMOVE SOURCED INFO, DON'T SUPRESS INFO!)
  10. (cur) (last) 20:14, February 20, 2007 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rvv, several users rebuffed your allegations as propaganda)
  11. (cur) (last) 20:04, February 20, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (exactly, see Talk page, exhaustive crucial evidence was presented per ethnic origin of Tigranes and his dynasty, don't remove that, instead, let's add more from Khorenatsi and other chroniclers.)
  12. (cur) (last) 18:20, February 20, 2007 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rvv per talk)
  13. (cur) (last) 16:51, February 20, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (Tigran, stop the aggressive behavior and removal of cited and sourced (see extensive discussions on Talk page), well-known info. Don't remove this info -- my warning to you.)
  14. (cur) (last) 16:38, February 20, 2007 Eupator (Talk | contribs) (rv vandalism and disruption, last warning Baguirov)
  15. (cur) (last) 16:37, February 20, 2007 AdilBaguirov (Talk | contribs) (added back Parthian or Persian origin of Tigranes and his whole family and dynasty)
  16. (cur) (last) 23:34, February 19, 2007 Aivazovsky (Talk | contribs) (→Conqueror of the Seleucid Empire)

--AdilBaguirov 15:32, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Why hasn't anyone supported your malicious disruption then? Even third party users such as Aldux rebutted your anti-Armenian propaganda, even Iranian users such as Ali rebutted your propaganda. What is this? The world against Adil?-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:38, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
"rebutted"? Ali has provided the Enc. Iranica link that I've placed into the article and you have removed! You and others in pack do not make the "world" -- and involving others like you do is against the Wikipedia rules. You are removing academic, fully-sourced verifiable facts from the article, which only means they will be put back and more administrators will start getting involved, all the way to arbitration. --AdilBaguirov 15:42, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
It's no use. There's no reasoning with you. You see evil Armenains everywhere. Btw, much of the article is derived from Iranica.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 15:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
If it's so, then Ali and my addition about the true ethnic origin of Tigranes from Iranica should not be supressed by you and a handful of other biased editors. --AdilBaguirov 16:31, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I have no desire to repeat myself and rehash the same thing. Also, Ali agrees with me not you. -- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 16:39, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Really? Interesting, if you think so, then I will show you what Ali said, and what you said in response: [19]

As you see, it was Ali who provided the link to the Iranica article [20], which I included into the article (along with other sources, all attesting Iranian origin of Tigranes). And your response? "It can be included in regards to Artaxias I and in the Artaxiad Dynasty page" and "In addition Artaxias caimed descent from the Orontids in the border stones left by him" (of course, Orontids were also ethnically Persian, as is known). Don't resist it, this is a fact, and accepted by Armenian scholars, as is clear from Garsoian et al. --AdilBaguirov 05:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Guys Thankfully I have never been involved in edit warring in any Azerbaijan-Armenia issue and have kept my civility in 99% of articles I have edited (I thank my parents and God for that without being prideful). Due to nature of Armenia-Azerbaijan conflicts raging through many many enteries and given that admins are watching these articles, please excuse my absence and lack of any comments since almost 8 months in the talk-page in this article until Arbcomm is finished. This creature of God, or in Persian Bandeyeh-e-Khoda that is Ali Doostzadeh, is saying that he is not involved in the current articles where Armenians and Azerbaijanis are debating since he has no interest whatsoever to be in arbcomm. We all can pray for that, Azerbaijan-Armenia issue will be solved peacefully in the real world. --alidoostzadeh 01:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I hope too, we want peace. Artaxiad 19:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Thats the spirit. Here is a song for you in Azeri, Armenian and Persian: [21]. Thats my last comment on this entry. --alidoostzadeh 02:44, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tigranes, an Armenian King (of Iranic descent)

Trusted websites and unbiased academic sources call Tigranes the Great an Armenian King. This doesn't simply refer to his nationality, because he was an Artaxiad, a royal family which was also of Armenian origin. A source from the Académie de Droit International de la Haye (La Haye Academy of International Law La Haye), for example, clearly states "noir sur blanc" that the Artaxiads in general and Tigranes in particular were Armenians.[22] Moreover, Encarta Encyclopedia and many other websites and books call him an Armenian.[23][24][25] The researches about Halley's comment call him Armenian king as well.[26][27] Adil, you are creating a debate for nothing, one that doesn't even exist. You cannot simply base yourself on Iranica; you should hereby find more sources to support your edits (if you still believe in your allegations). -- Davo88 16:57, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Do not accuse me of being ideologically motivated either. I don't know about you, but my only motivation is to expose the Truth to the general public. -- Davo88 17:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Very good information but theres no need Adil will reject this since he found out some evidence about other Armenian origins I bet he was so happy so he will pursue this, but guess what it doesn't matter he was an "Armenian king" that was his title its self explanatory if he wasn't we would know, lets hope Adil makes a comment on this. Artaxiad 00:20, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
As already said to you, none of your sources say he was ethnically Armenian, or of Armenian origin/heritage/descent/birth/etc. Meanwhile, all mine do. Moreover, my sources are newer, and surely far more authoritative than article at archaeologynews.org or arxiv.org, and do not contain the POV of Ronald Grigor Suny, the ethnic Armenian author of Encarta's article you have provided. Hague 1968 book is not written by historians, but lawyers, and again, there is no dispute about Iranian origin of Tigranes, his dynasty, or the preceeding dynasty (and even following dynasty). The other two books also say "Armenian king" which is just a variation of a more precise "king of Armenia". As you might know, Catherine the Great was a "Russian empress", even though she was 100% ethnic German and spoke Russian with a German accent. Likewise, Armenia was ruled by Jews, Aropatenians, Georgians, Parthians, and Persians (am I forgetting anyone?), yet of course they were all kings of Armenia, and "Armenian" kings. So once more, you should not remvoe the correct, authoritative and verifiable sources that's most recent scholarship and attests that Tigranes the Great, his dynasty, and the Orontid Dynasty, were of Iranian origin, specifically, Persian origin (and Parthian origin in classical sources). --AdilBaguirov 05:58, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
That is only your erroneous interpretation of those sources, I do not have to abide by them. -- Davo88 06:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Adilbaguirov Although Artaxias had overthrown Orontes, he based his claim to legitimacy on his ‘’’presumed’’’ Orontid lineage; this attitude accords at once both Iranian and Armenian conceptions; certain status was inherited by blood, but could not be acquired’. Artaxiad 22:38, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Supression of fully-sourced, reliable, verifiable and authoritative facts about Tigranes the Great, his Artaxiad Dynasty, and the dynasty preceeding his, the Orontids, being of Iranian origin, specifically, of Persian origin (and according to classical Armenian, Jewish, Byzantine sources, of Parthian origin), should not go on. The modern English-language sources have been repeatedly provided, both by Armenian researchers -- one by Dr. Garsoian for Encyclopedia Iranica [29], and one by Dr. Kouymjian for his Armenian Studies Program at California State University in Fresno, with a grant from The Bertha and John Garabedian Charitable Foundation [30].

Specifically, the latest Enc. Iranica article, authored by an Armenian researcher, says it very clearly: "TIGRAN II, THE GREAT, king of Armenia (r. 95-55 BCE). Tigran (Tigranes) II was the most distinguished member of the so-called Artaæe@sid/Artaxiad dynasty, which has now been identified as a branch of the earlier Eruandid dynasty of Iranian origin attested as ruling in Armenia from at least the 5th century B.C.E" [31].

There is also a reference from the Jewish Encyclopedia [32] which mentions that Tigranes the Great's family origin was Parthian: "When Vagharshak, brother of the Parthian king Mithridates I., and the founder of the Arshak dynasty, ascended the throne of Armenia 150 B.C." --adil 07:40, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

So? it says dynasty not Parthian himself, you can't base it on that. Artaxiad 11:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Let him waste precious bytes with this tripe. Take it as entertainment.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 12:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Your bad faith is noted, but read the evidence again, you should not supress these facts. --adil 17:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Good faith was thrown out of the window when you decided to recycle propaganda and distrubing Armenian wiki articles instead of discussing the modern academic rebuttals.-- Ευπάτωρ Talk!! 18:14, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I am the only one here who presents "modern academic" sources, not to mention primary sources. All you do is engage in personal attacks, insults and run around the circle. Tigranes was of Iranian origin and that must be correctly portrayed. --adil 07:15, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Try to take a look at the sources I provided earlier, which clearly state that Tigranes was an Armenian. -- Davo88 13:31, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I did, and as already said to you, none of your sources say he was ethnically Armenian, or of Armenian origin/heritage/descent/birth/etc. Meanwhile, all mine do. Moreover, my sources are newer, and surely far more authoritative than article at archaeologynews.org or arxiv.org, and do not contain the POV of Ronald Grigor Suny, the ethnic Armenian author of Encarta's article you have provided. Hague 1968 book is not written by historians, but lawyers, and again, there is no dispute about Iranian origin of Tigranes, his dynasty, or the preceeding dynasty (and even following dynasty). The other two books also say "Armenian king" which is just a variation of a more precise "king of Armenia". As you might know, Catherine the Great was a "Russian empress", even though she was 100% ethnic German and spoke Russian with a German accent. Likewise, Armenia was ruled by Jews, Aropatenians, Georgians, Parthians, and Persians (am I forgetting anyone?), yet of course they were all kings of Armenia, and "Armenian" kings. So once more, you should not remvoe the correct, authoritative and verifiable sources that's most recent scholarship and attests that Tigranes the Great, his dynasty, and the Orontid Dynasty, were of Iranian origin, specifically, Persian origin (and Parthian origin in classical sources). --adil 07:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, so all of your sources do say that he was ethnically Armenian? Very well then.
It doesn't matter if your sources are new, especially if they spout lies and revisionism. As I said before, you are falsely interpreting those sources, by saying that he wasn't Armenian. Yet it is clearly written that he is! Please try looking at them in a more objective manner. -- Davo88 12:33, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Such tactics won't get you anywhere. The sources are clear, they are objective and authoritative, and leave no doubt that Tigranes was of Iranian origin. --adil 07:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

2 sources aren't enough, Adil. -- Davo88 11:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

First, it's not 2 sources, but much more. And second, according to whom? None of your sources deny his Iranic origin. --adil 02:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Supression of fully-sourced, reliable, verifiable and authoritative facts about Tigranes the Great, his Artaxiad Dynasty, and the dynasty preceeding his, the Orontids, being of Iranian origin, specifically, of Persian origin (and according to classical Armenian, Jewish, Byzantine sources, of Parthian origin), should not go on. The modern English-language sources have been repeatedly provided, both by Armenian researchers -- one by Dr. Garsoian for Encyclopedia Iranica [33], and one by Dr. Kouymjian for his Armenian Studies Program at California State University in Fresno, with a grant from The Bertha and John Garabedian Charitable Foundation [34].

Specifically, the latest Enc. Iranica article, authored by an Armenian researcher, says it very clearly: "TIGRAN II, THE GREAT, king of Armenia (r. 95-55 BCE). Tigran (Tigranes) II was the most distinguished member of the so-called Artaæe@sid/Artaxiad dynasty, which has now been identified as a branch of the earlier Eruandid dynasty of Iranian origin attested as ruling in Armenia from at least the 5th century B.C.E" [35].

There is also a reference from the Jewish Encyclopedia [36] which mentions that Tigranes the Great's family origin was Parthian: "When Vagharshak, brother of the Parthian king Mithridates I., and the founder of the Arshak dynasty, ascended the throne of Armenia 150 B.C." --adil 20:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You're repeating yourself for nothing. As I said before, 2 sources aren't enough. -- Davo88 22:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

What you said before is not very relevant, since you can't dispute any of the academic and verifiable evidences, and are obviously contradicting Wikipedia's policy, and are actively attempting to supress information. Also, as another proof that you are not interested in the facts and only in supression of information, you didn't seem to notice several more sources already posted, such as:

1) Flavius Josephus (37-100 AD), "Jewish War", Book I, Chapter 18.

"After a certain time, Anthony appeared from Parthian march, he carried with himself the captured [POW] son of Tigran, Artavazd, as a gift to Cleopatra, so along that with all the treasure and the whole bounty to her, the Parthian was also given."

The Armenian website (http://www.armenianchurchyouth.com/heritage/history/vartan/events.html) estimates that date being 34BC: "55-34 B.C. Reign of Artavazd II in Armenia fights as an ally of Parthians, is captured and exiled by Mark Anthony."

Obviously, if the son of Tigran II Great was Parthian (of Iranian origin), so was his father. Next:

2) Procopius Caesarea's "De Aedificiis" ("On Buildings"), Book III, taken from http://www.miriobiblion.narod.ru/prokopij/p_aed3.htm, which is electronic text of the book: Прокопий Кесарийский. Война с готами. О Постройках. - М.: Арктос - Вика-пресс, 1996. Перевод С.П. Кондратьева. Перевод дан по изданию Haury, Procopii Caesariensis Opera omnia, vol. III, 2. Lips., 1916.

"6. And then someone from Parthian kings has put as a king of Armenia his brother, by the name of Arzak, as the history of Armenia tells us about. Let nobody think, that Artaxiads are Armenian by birth. 7. In view of being related, they for five hundred years maintained peace among themselves."

3) From: "Всемирная история" Том 1. под ред. Ю.П. Францева, Государственное издательство политической литературы, 1953. http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000017/st060.shtml http://ancient.ru/topics/data/armenia/armenia_02.htm

"The population of the cities in Armenia was mixed: here lived Hellenic, Syrians, Jews, Persians. Armenians were far from forming dominant part of the cities' population [i.e., Armenians were in definite minority at least in the cities]. The inhabitants of cities alongside with craft and trade also concerned themselves with animal husbandry. Tigran, following the example of Assyrian and Urartean kings, used the mass driving away of the inhabitants of conquered Hellenic cities, resettling with them old and new cities....By Tigran's time, Armenian nobility was subjected/underwent strong Iranization, which begun as far back as Achamenid period; on this indicate, in particular, are the names of the kings from dynasty of Artaxiads: Artashes, Artavazd, Tigran."

This is very similar to what we read in the other academic source, Редакционная коллегия. Закавказье и сопредельные страны в период эллинизма./История Древнего мира. Расцвет Древних обществ.- М.:Знание, 1983 - с.399-414, http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000002/st21.shtml

4) I don't want to go into translating Movses of Khorene, episcope Sebeos and catholicos Hovaness Draskhanakertci, among other ancient Armenian historians, but they all clearly say that the Arsacids (of which Tigran was a descendant) were Parthian

5) Here's an English language source which once again concurs with all the Armenian, Jewish and Byzantin and Soviet sources, both primary and modern, about Tigranes II Great and his dynasty being Parthian (it's from: http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0370.html, note that it makes it clear that there is a general confusion of readers with names of those dynasties, and some conflicting info about who ruled when and who was legitimate ruler and who was not, (also note that they bring my point that "King of Armenia" is imprecise, and means Kings in Armenia, not "ethnically Armenian kings"):

"The expression "kings of Armenia" is in many instances vague, and leads to erroneous conclusions, especially with regard to the Arsacidae. The trans­actions of the Romans with Armenia will present much less difficulties if the student will remember that he has to do with kings in Armenia, and kings of Armenian origin reigning in countries beyond the limits of Armenia. The history of the Arsa­cidae cannot be well understood without a previous knowledge of the other dynasties before and after that of the Arsacidae; for Armenian kings were known to the Greeks long before the accession of the Arsacidae ; and the annals of the Eastern em­pire mention many important transactions with kings of Armenia, belonging to those dynasties, which reigned in this country during a period of almost a thousand years after the fall of the Arsa­cidae. But as any detailed account would be out of place here, we can give only a short sketch.

I. Dynasty of Hai'g, founded by Hai'g, the son of Gathlas, who is said to have lived b. c. 2107. Fifty-nine kings belong to this dynasty, and among them Zarmai'r, who, according to the Ar­menian historians, assisted the Trojans at the siege of their city, where he commanded a body of As­syrians ; Dikran or Tigranes, a prince mentioned by Xenophon (Cyrop. iii. 1, v. 1, 3, viii. 3, 4); and Wane, the last of his house, who fell in a battle with Alexander the Great in b. c. 328. The names of the fifty-nine kings, the duration of their reigns, and some other historical facts, mixed up with fabulous accounts, are given by the Ar­menian historians.

II. Seven Governors appointed by Alexander, and after his death by the Seleucidae, during the period from 328 to 149 b. c.

III. Dynasty of the Arsacidae, from b. c. 149 to a. d. 428. See below.

IV. Persian Governors, from a. d. 428 to 625.

V. Greek and Arabian governors, from A. d. 632 to 855.

VI. Dynasty of the Pagratidae, from 855 to 1079. The Pagratidae, a noble family of Jewish origin, settled in Armenia in b. c. 600, according to the Armenian historians."

Then on: http://www.ancientlibrary.com/smith-bio/0371.html :

"On the other hand the Romans, with all the pride and haughtiness of conquerors, consider their instruments or allies alone as the legitimate kings, and they generally speak of the Arsacidae as a family imposed upon Armenia by the Parthians. As to the origin. of the Armenian Arsacidae, both the Romans and Armenians agree, that they were descended from the dynasty of the Parthian Arsacidae, an opinion which was so generally established, that Procopius (De Aedificiis Justi?iiam9 iii. 1) says, that nobody had the slightest doubt on the fact." From: Smith, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology, page 362.

so as you see, Davo88, it's not 2 sources, although even one of the above sources is enough. --adil 02:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Per all the exhaustive and definitive evidence above, I've reverted back to the version of the page that mentiones the proud ethnic heritage of Tigranes. --adil 07:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Adil, all of this evidence is based on your original research and personal interpretations. I'm reverting this article to its earlier version. -- Aivazovsky 16:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)