Talk:Tifa Lockhart/Discussion on the love section

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Edit Of The Love Section

Why did someone remove the fact of Tifa being called a "Koibito" in Final Fantasy VII Reunion Files? I think that is a very important fact and should not be overlooked.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's a stated FACT by Tetsuya Nomura, not a LT debate view. And last time I checked, Wikipedia was about stating the FACTS only. And come on, the Reunion Files is more proof then those stupid Novellas.

Why in the world would they delete it? Hell, a quote from Tetsuya Nomura stating that Tifa IS Cloud's lover/sweetheart is more important then a long, worthless article about Aeris' "Personality". I thought Wikipedia was strictly "facts only". Looks like I was wrong. 68.43.65.255 02:21, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is "facts only", and while the fact remains that Nomura has referred to Tifa as a "mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle", a remark in a small paragraph in the Reunion Files is hardly an official statement on a matter.
If you like the Cloti pairing, support it yourself, by all means. I know I do. Interpret Nomura's remark however you wish. But don't bring original research into a Wikipedia article. -ryan-d 15:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Hardly and official statement? Oh I'm sorry. I thought that since Tifa was living with a man she loved, and raised two kids with him for two years, and then all of a sudden the director calls her a koibito in the Reunion Files would be conscidered an official statement. What does the size of the paragraph have to do with what he said? Someone sounds like they're in denial.
And how is the Reunion Files conscidered as an "unrealiable source"? Last time I checked, I posted the Koibito thing, AND had the exact page from the Reunion Files (which, by the way, was published by Square-Enix themselves) to back it up. There's your proof for you right there. You think anybody would have enough time on their hands or be pathetic enough to make a false/photoshopped page where Nomura calls Tifa a koibito?
Please explain yourself to me. I really don't know WHAT you're talking about.
RoseDincht 15:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
To quote another editor, there is a huge difference between synthesizing published material to advance a position and listing facts. Try this:
Fact - In the Reunion Files, Nomura comments that Tifa is a "mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle".
Not a fact - Nomura has made an official statement that Cloud and Tifa are FF7's canon couple.
-ryan-d 18:18, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's forget the fact that Tifa's in love with only one guy, and Nomura describes her as a koibito. Common sense, please? Who else's koibito (or GIRLFRIEND) would she be?

It's canon. It's a fact.

And ontop of that, sure, I described the picture a bit wrong. But WHY would you take down the Koibito information when I clearly stated "How deep the relationship goes remains unanswered, but a quote from Nomura gives us a hint", provided the quote, provided the Japanese text for koibito, and then explained what koibito meant? That was nothing but stated facts. I'm sorry a couple people here seem to have a hard time accepting that, but like you said, Wikipedia is FACTS ONLY.

And you still didn't answer the question. How is the Reunion Files an unrealiable source? RoseDincht 20:16, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The Reunion Files isn't unreliable; the presentation of Nomura's comment is. If the Reunion Files had an article explicitly stating that Tifa and Cloud were canon, that would be evidence enough. As it stands, however, all we have is a comment by Nomura that Tifa is a "sweetheart". Looking at the full statement, "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle", it is apparent that Nomura's intention wasn't even to confirm that Cloud and Tifa are together, but to illustrate the fact that she is a complex character.
Don't get me wrong. I'm a huge CloudxTifa fan - I think that they need each other and that they would be awesome together. And I would love for SE to make an official statement affirming that. But in all likelihood, something like that will never happen if SE wants to keep all their fans. While I agree (in a completely personal level) that it's fairly obvious that Cloud and Tifa are to some extent together, or will be in the near future (especially seeing as to how Aeris is quite dead and that Cloud doesn't hump dead girls), all that is original research, and as such can't be added to the article.
I'll admit that I was a bit harsh in removing the edit. It is a valid point and a fact that he said that; however, previous experience has shown that any potentially POV statements regarding the Clotiris love triangle only invites the pouring in of more POV, and a lot of OR. To avoid that, the section on "Love" is kept deliberately NPOV, favouring neither Tifa nor Aeris. Nomura calling Tifa a "koibito" would be better placed in an article discussing the FF7 Love Triangle and presenting views from both the Cloti and Cleris/Cloae camps, but such an article would be hell to maintain due to the high possibility of POV and OR.
So for now, I'm of the opinion that the statement should stay out of the article. We could always try to build consensus by requesting for comment on WP:FF, if you still feel otherwise. -ryan-d 05:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

So pretty much what you're saying is that we can't state a fact because a bunch of unhappy fanboys/fangirls (mostly from the Cloud/Aerith forums) will overrun the place? Well seeing that anybody and their mother can edit wikipedia to their liking, it is to be expected. If you want to delete original research, be my guest. But why would somebody delete a stated fact just because it won't make everybody happy? Facts have a tendency to do that. Open up your history book. Do you think Native Americans of today are happy about Columbus, Pizzaro, Cortes and Custer coming in, spreading disease, massacring their villages, converting them to Christianity and screwing them over? But wait, THAT would be wrong to just remove, wouldn't it? Because it's a recorded FACT.

So in this case, Nomura refers to Tifa as a koibito, a girlfriend, pretty much making it clear that she's Cloud's girl, but Wikipedia takes it out of the article because the Anti-Cloud/Tifa fanboys/fangirls will get upset. I understand the whole being neutral thing, which is why I left it as "Nomura called her a koibito, which is only used when referring to a girlfriend or partner and that gives us a clue as to how deep their relationship may be" and posted nothing further. There was no "It's evident that she's a koibito because she lived with Cloud, raised two kids with him and then he smiled at her at the end of the movie and took a family portrait with her and the kids". Then THAT would be conscidered original research. If that was the case, then yes, I could understand if you deleted it. But the fact that you deleted a stated fact just because it wouldn't make everybody happy is just ridiculous.

RoseDincht 14:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is a fact that Nomura refers to Tifa as a "koibito". However, for all the reasons I stated in my previous post (that the comment does not explicitly state that Cloti is canon, nor is Nomura in that sentence saying anything other than the fact that Tifa is a complex character), it isn't very notable. Adding that statement to the article would condone hundreds of other "facts", that "give clues as to how deep their relationship may be":
  • In Advent Children, Cloud looks very distraught when he finds Tifa injured.
  • Nomura once said, "Let's kill Aerith and bring out Tifa."
  • Nomura has stated on numerous occasions that his favorite designs are Rinoa (who Nomura has dictated Tifa look more like in Advent Children) and Kaldea (from The Bouncer, who is similar to Tifa in facial features and physique).
While some, or even many of these might be verifiable and/or well-sourced, very few of these statements are notable enough for inclusion into the article - especially seeing as to how the subject of the article is Tifa Lockhart, not Final Fantasy VII Love Triangle. As you have been endlessly repeating over your past few posts, yes, Wikipedia is facts only, but that doesn't mean we include all facts. -ryand 16:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be conscidered an "FF7 Love Triangle" article if I said something like "Tifa is a Koibito, Aeris isn't". In fact, stating that "how far that relationship goes remains unanswered" is pretty much false. And sure, the comment doesn't state that Cloti is canon, but it DOES say that she's a girlfriend. What do girlfriends usually do? Love their boyfriend? Isn't that section of the article called "love"? All I did was stated in the article was that she was a koibito, not WHO'S koibito she was (minus the image's description, but that could've easily been edited without removing it).

You don't state all facts? Why is that? I thought Wikipedia's goal was to make the page as informational as possible. Or is this the whole "we don't want fanboys/fangirls to get upset and edit up the place with OR"? If that's the case, maybe the person who made this site should've thought about that before they designed the website in a way that allowed everyone and anyone to edit the site as they saw fitting.

Perhaps you're wording it wrong, but so far, it doesn't sound like you're being neutral about this. It sounds bias. And as we all know, nuetral is supposed to be free of bias. RoseDincht 18:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh facts, how we abuse thee. Yes, "koibito" is a fact. But her being "Cloud's koibito" isn't a fact. Do not mistake it for one. I can see where you would think it makes sense. However, that does not make it a FACT. It makes it an INFERENCE. It does not state that she is anyone's koibito in particular, and therefore nothing is canon. Besides, if Square-Enix wanted Cloud/Tifa to be canon, they would have made it known in "Advent Children". However, they did not. Please remember that in the FFVII Love Triangle, very little is actually "canon". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oddishness (talk • contribs) 16:21, 2 November 2006.
Well, I have added a request for comment on WP:FF. Maybe we can get some consensus on this. -ryand 08:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, people, what the heck. This is a pretty silly arguement. I'm actually going to agree that a sentence saying that Tifa is Cloud's girlfriend or whatever does not belong in the article. A sentence saying that "It is implied that they are in a relationship, as she lives with him and Nomura says that she is a "koibito", though it has never been conclusively stated one way or another." However, I suggest that you stop arguing over whether a video game character is in a relationship with another, and make it so her article is comprehensive and not written in an in-universe manner. --PresN 14:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea what you just said. Explain why you don't think it should be in the article more clearly. And we weren't talking about what relationship Tifa was in (until Oddishness came through), we were talking about why the koibito information should be added onto the site and how ridiculous Wikipedia is for not stating all the facts just because a bunch of obsessed fanboys/fangirls would get upset. Please read the arguements before you criticize it.

RoseDincht

Oddishness, look at it in this light. If Nomura said that Aeris was a koibito, how many Cloud/Aeris fans would jump all over that and use it for proof? Is it really so surprising that Cloud/Tifa fans used this for proof as well? I didn't know that we were abusing facts simply by stating them (although the people are the Cloud/Aerith forums seem to abuse them more by twisting them).

And as for Tifa being a koibito, but not Cloud's? Look at it this way: koibito = lover of a sexual/romantic kind. And Tifa is described as one. Aeris isn't. You can do this by process of elimination. I don't ever recall Tifa being romantic towards any other man in Advent Children or Final Fantasy VII. On the other hand, she IS romantic with Cloud (making promises under a shooting star, sleeping against him in the Highwind scene after they pour their feelings out to each other, catching her when she falls from the cliff, moving in with her and raising two kids, finding her wounded in the church and holding her, coming back to live with her and the kids, smiling at her at the end of the movie, ect). I think that proves who's koibito she is, and if the pairing is canon or not. Use common sense, please.

And if Wikipedia didn't want the people here to talk about Tifa's love life or list facts about it, then why the hell did they put a LOVE SECTION in Tifa's Article? Don't throw me that Love Triangle stuff either, because when I posted the koibito bit, that was about Tifa being a koibito and Nomura giving us a hint as to how deep her relationship with Cloud may be. There was NOTHING about Aeris mentioned there. Cloud/Tifa being mentioned but not Aeris = NO LOVE TRIANGLE BEING MENTIONED. I'm sorry you're just in denial.

And I loved that little comment you made about me on CxA. Very mature. Honestly, are the people at the CxA forums THAT threatened by Cloud/Tifa being canon? Weren't you also the group who told the CLoud/Tifa fans that they didn't have any proof to support Cloud/Tifa, but now that we have some you get all defensive? Nice one. RoseDincht 14:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm just going to say a few things before I stop replying to this discussion:
  • Wikipedia is not a CxT vs. CxA battleground. Cloud and Tifa won't automatically become canon because it says so on a Wikipedia article. Please, take your pointless nine-year-old war back to your forums.
  • It would also help your credibility if you didn't have to snipe at the Aeris article/CxA fans/other Wikipedian editors in every other sentence to prove your point.
  • Like anyone else, you are free to make edits to the article. Policies do exist on Wikipedia, however, and any edits that are determined to be in conflict with these policies will be reverted.
That's all I have to say, really. Bye. -ryand 15:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Does it look like I really care if Cloud/Tifa is canon or not? I like Tai/Sora from Digimon and it's not canon. I'm sorry I'm not THAT obsessive. I just find it ridiculous that you try to cover up the truth just because it'll make Cloud/Aeris members upset. Pointless nine-year-old war? I hope that's directed at Oddishness, because I didn't start any war. I was having a DEBATE, and guess what? It wasn't even over a Love Triangle to begin with. But seeing that you've been consistantly missing the points I've been making in this debate, I suppose that must've slipped your mind.
As for my credibility? I guess Wikipedia isn't used to honesty. They don't like to point out "all the facts" after all. Personally, I find it funny how Tifa being called a koibito went from being labeled as "original research" to being labeled as "a fact that can't be posted because not ALL facts are posted on wikipedia". Now how does that make YOUR credibility look?
And please, by all means, post the policies here. I'd like to see where it says "WE DON'T POST ALL FACTS BECAUSE IT'LL MAKE PEOPLE SAD". The truth hurts sometimes. Sorry that a couple people who take their fandom way too seriously can't deal with it and resort to hiding the truth and going into denial rather then accepting it and continue to love their fandom regardless of what is canon or not.

RoseDincht 17:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

She's not 9-years old, so don't pointlessly generalize like that. Lastly, no one ever said Cloud and Tifa would become 'canon' just because she edited a questionable wikipedia love article about her character. If other people can edit it to their liking without even considering the facts, then why can't she? She had every right to. She felt like editing it a bit because the info wasn't entirely accurate and it was outdated. Afterall, Nomura NEVER said a thing about being afraid about losing his fanbase if he stated which couple was 'canon'. You see? I cannot find him stating such a thing anywhere and yet you allow that on there and when Nomura actually says something, you want to be all sensitive and keep it out. Original research my BUTT... Maybe he thinks we're smart enough to use our heads, just like how he didn't need to state that Tidus and Yuna is canon or that Rinoa and Squall is canon, y'know? Also, She posted the Nomura quote because Nomura is the only one who can shed light on this sort of stuff everyone's going rabid about. And honestly, who said you had to be a rabid fan to state facts about the character and who said character's love interest is?
And don't tell us of forums. Apparently some group of people CxA were threatened at the fact that Rose edited her love section. I'm almost positive they check that love section every day because they're so threatened. *snicker* —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Narutokun37 (talk • contribs) 00:38, 3 November 2006.


And for those who just tuned in, this was the post I made:

A quote from Tetsuya Nomura in the Final Fantasy VII Reunion Files gives us a clue as to how deep the relationship between Cloud and Tifa may be:

"There are many dimensions to Tifa's Character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle."

However, the bolded "sweetheart" is written as 恋人 koibito, a word that is only used when referring to a lover or girlfriend.

So for those who argue that "Sweetheart doesn't mean lover", KOIBITO does. I don't see how this is conscidered Original Research or POV, so those who are claiming that it is, PLEASE explain why. Just what is SO wrong about this stated fact that it can't added to Tifa's article, other then it will make a couple fans have a hissyfit? Because honestly, deleting the koibito part because it'll make fans upset is just as ridiculous as someone deleting the "Aeris said that she was jealous in the Maiden Who Walks the Planet" just because "it was just stupid". RoseDincht 21:25, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

RoseDincht, you don't need to be so angry about this. I believe that the koibito information SHOULD be in the wiki article, however, I don't believe that it should say that she was Cloud's koibito. That was it. Although I can see where it would make sense to believe that, it is still only an inference. The wiki article should be strictly facts. I'm sorry that you couldn't pull that out of my original post. That was all I neant. Please understand. On a seperate note, Aeris was not jealous of Tifa in the sense that the article had implied. That was why it was removed.
By the way, my posts are my own business. Funny, my idea of maturity does not entail trolling forums of a pairing that you don't even like. I would like to end this argument now, for this is not the time nor the place. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oddishness (talk • contribs) 08:35, 3 November 2006.

I didn't SAY she was Cloud's koibito in the article. Read it over if you want. Where does it say "Tifa is Cloud's Koibito" in that written piece? And no matter what way you look at it, it IS a fact that Nomura called Tifa a koibito. It's written right there in kanji on the Reunion File page. It says "TIFA IS A KOIBITO". That's strictly facts. I'm sorry you're just in denial.

Also worth saying that you're really not one to remove content from the article. Aeris said it herself in the Maiden: "I'm a little jealous of you but, do take care of Cloud and the upper world."

But that's "just stupid", right? I guess it is. But hey, Square-Enix didn't seem to think so since THEY WROTE IT. Nice one.

And you're posts about ME are MY business as well. You obviously have no maturity since you posted something as childish as this:

"YOU. ARE. STUUUUUUUUPID. IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU. HELL, IT'S KILLING ME. TRY NOT TO STABYOURSELF IN THE EYE WITH A FORK THE NEXT TIME YOU TRY TO EAT.

I wish these people would realize that YES, "koibito" is a fact. NO "Cloud's koibito" is NOT a fact. I can see where you would think it makes sense. However, that does not make it a FACT. I makes it an INFERENCE. Dumbasses."

Don't talk to me about maturity. Ever. RoseDincht 01:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not exactly a logged-in member, but I just want to say some things about this subject. Recently, I've discovered that various other profiles of characters from other animes/movies/etc. (as well as FFVII) have lacked the romance section it once had. First of all, I am wholly a CloTi fan, but over some time I've realized that you cannot rush pairings and that others won't necessarily agree to stated facts unless they were actually made obvious or noticeable in any movie or interview. Of course there have been numerous amounts of evidence that support the CloTi pairing, but in order to avoid any pairing wars between people (which is....no offense, but quite absurd) people should not make any alleged statements. I truly am not referring to anyone in particular, but fighting over pairings is extremely unnecessary...and somewhat annoying (as it causes others to lose interest in a pairing they once loved...yes, and unhappy=negativity= :( ). I think that controversial topics such as this one should be fairly explanatory or informational to the farthest extent without arousing wanton insults. Perhaps this section should be slightly evasive in certain spots ^^; I do acknowledge the fact that the koibito information is significant and should be pieced together along with the rest of the section, but it is preferable that the part {she is Cloud's koibito} is only implied instead of made canon. I've decided that I will regret this later, but it seemed interesting to take part in this. 71.196.56.79 03:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)KT

I think that has to be the only intelligent thing that has been posted in this entire discussion. 204.39.88.159 13:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. RoseDincht 20:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I concur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oddishness (talk • contribs)

Hey, Oddishness. I would just like to ask you something. You said here:

I wish these people would realize that YES, "koibito" is a fact. NO "Cloud's koibito" is NOT a fact. I can see where you would think it makes sense. However, that does not make it a FACT. I makes it an INFERENCE. Dumbasses.

Are you sure you got the meaning of inference right? Because it seems to me like you're confusing yourself about what it really is. Here's the definition:

inference:The process of drawing a conclusion from given evidence. To reach a decision by reasoning.

Or, in other words, an educated guess based on logic and reasoning. So because Tifa is described as someone's girlfriend/lover, would it not be a wise and educated guess to think that she's the girlfriend/lover of the only man she's ever liked in FF7, the man she now raises kids with, and the man she cares about? Because that's what I got out of your statement. So basically, that would make it a fact as well.

I don't see what's to argue about that?

narutokun37


I don't want to step into this discussion — the big hate war between Cloti fans and Clerith fans has placed me in a staunch neutral position in which I keep out of the LTD forums and topics — but I feel that recent edits to both Tifa's and Aerith's articles are in need of attention.
Admittedly both characters' articles need work, along with a OOU perspective rehual according to WP:WAF. I have to agree with ryan-d that the both characters' Love section constitutes as original research. On a closer look on the Maiden novella analysis of Aerith Gainsborough's page and the whole "koibito" analysis of Tifa Lockhart's page contain unpublished analysis only "supported" by official texts or statements that do not really offer a confirmed analysis of Square-Enix.
In short, this is what Wikipedia calls "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position":

Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research.

Before the Cloti fans (or Clerith fans if they're here) start attacking me, I beg them to hear me out and stay cool by temporarily muting fanatism devoted to each persons' LTD views. I will first state that the following section in Tifa's article can stay:

Nomura states that there are many different ways to freely interpret her status and encourages the fans to think about it freely. While he explains the idea that Tifa and Sephiroth parallel what each respective being could represent (i.e. light vs. darkness) is a possible view, he also gives another interpretation in which Tifa could possibly be an inhabitant of Radiant Garden.

Why? What makes that excerpt any different from what is written with the whole koibito issue? After all, both comments are stated by Nomura — why shouldn't it be considered encyclopedic? Though the different may be subtle, it is quite significant. For Tifa's role in Kingdom Hearts II, Nomura clearly gives two interpretations and I have quoted him in his exact words from the interview:
  1. "'If Cloud’s darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light'; in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn’t really human."
  2. "Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion..."
The following two interpretations are published analysis and is more clear and obvious in nature as opposed to being vague, open-ended, and only is implicative in nature. Indeed we are expressing the two analyses Nomura believes is legitimate, and hence is encyclopedic.
The koibito issue, however, is different in the fact that Nomura doesn't offer interpretations. The statement he made in the Reunion files are more like "inferences", to quote Oddishness, and as PresN has said, "it is implied." I'm going to repost the sentence RoseDincht has kindly posted:

"There are many dimensions to Tifa's character. She's like a mother, a sweetheart, and a close ally in battle."

If Nomura bluntly said, "Tifa is Cloud's sweetheart," then we can consider it a fact. But he did not mention that this was what SE thought, he did not even give out any interpretation in which fans could interpret as he had for Kingdom Hearts II. It is one of the vague, irritating comments that clever Nomura, Nojima, and the rest of FFVII staff make to dodge the LTD debate (not that anyone can blame them, given the rapid nature of the fans). Anyway, there are two ways to interpret the sentence:
  1. Tifa is Cloud's sweetheart because the kanji used for sweetheart is koibito, a word commonly referred to lovers in Japanese.
  2. Because "mother", "sweetheart", and "ally" refer back to the "many dimensions of Tifa's character", they are traits describing Tifa's nature/character towards Cloud, as opposed to explaining their relationship since Cloud's POV is not given.
The love section in Tifa's article (as well as the love section in Aerith's article), as I see it, is synthesing published material that serves to advance a position." I will repost what that section states for the readers' benefit one more time:

Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C.

Case of synthesising: (directly quoting a revert of a previous version of the article which started this discussion in the first place)
  • A) "On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa — written by Final Fantasy VII and Advent Children scenario writer, Kazushige Nojima — Tifa asks Cloud if he loves her, but quickly changes the question...The nature of an answer to Tifa's original question is left unexplored...and while it is apparent that Tifa and Cloud share a relationship that transcends basic friendship, the question of just how deep that relationship goes remains unanswered..."
  • B) "Yet one quote from Tetsuya Nomura in the Final Fantasy VII: Reunion Files does give the fans a clue....The bolded sweetheart in the Reunion Files was spelt as 恋人 or Koibito, which translates as "lover" and is often used when referring to a girlfriend/partner."
  • C) The romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa is confirmed; they are a canon couple
Even the statement in B admits that the statement involving "koibito" is a "clue." It isn't an outright, blunt, clear-cut statement — an undeniable fact — it is merely a clue that may or may not imply the mutual romantic feelings between the two characters.
I do have a compromise and I will go into this in more detail later and see if I can write a sample paragraph of how the wording of the article could go. —Mirlen 03:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I think Mirlen has put it better than I ever could have. RoseDincht, what do you think? -ryand 05:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I thought you were going to stop replying to this discussion. But other then that:

I still believe that you people are lacking any common sense. Like our lovable Cleriths stated, "Nomura said she IS a koibito, but not CLOUD'S koibito". Then who's is she? Barret's? Is that why she's living with Cloud, raising kids with him, making promises with him under shooting stars and sleeping against him on the Highwind? 'Cause she's Barret's koibito? Love you're logic there.

So now it went from "Koibito is original research" to "We don't post all facts because it hurts other fans feelings", and now it's "it's a clue, not an undeniable fact". What you people seemed to be missing is that it might not be a literal, canon fact that is written in black and white for those without common sense that Tifa is Cloud's koibito. However, it IS a written in black and white and literal fact that Tetsuya Nomura called Tifa Lockheart a koibito. You're proof is on the reunion page. Koibito = Lover. Lover usually = Love. Love section is on Tifa's article. Therefore it should probably go there.

If you don't want to tie it in with "Oh it gives us a clue as to how close Cloud/Tifa are" then fine. But state the fact that she IS a koibito anyway because it's a fact straight from Nomura's mouth and gives us a clue that she's SOMEONE'S girlfriend.

Will that make you happy? or does the fact that Tifa is SOMEONE'S koibito still upset a few rabid fans? RoseDincht 13:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I only replied because Mirlen left a note on my talk page requesting that I give my opinion. Anyway, to make things clear, I'm going to restate my stand:
  1. Yes, it is a fact that Nomura referred to Tifa as a koibito.
  2. However, to quote WP:NOT, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. More specificially, "that something is 100% true does not mean it is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia."
  3. If you have been reading my posts or Mirlen's post, you should know that our contention is not that "Tifa is a koibito, just not Cloud's koibito". Our contention is that Nomura's comment is phrased in a such a way so as to be inconclusive in determining the nature of Cloud and Tifa's relationship.
  4. From points 2 and 3, I am of the opinion that, as such, Nomura's comment is entirely too vague to be "suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia". This is because of my belief (which you seem to have constantly misintepreted as fear of rabid Clerith fans) that there are other, more blatant and hence more deserving statements (many also by Nomura) which, were we to allow the koibito comment, should also be added. I feel that to avoid the pointless POV and OR that would occur if we were to expand the Love section, we should add none of these statements (except an official statement from SE explicitly describing the relationship between Cloud and Tifa).
  5. However, I am willing to see Mirlen's sample paragraph of how the wording could go, and perhaps come to a compromise on the issue.
On another note, you seem to be making statements to provoke people. While I understand that this issue might be very important to you, we are all here to try to improve the article, and it would aid this discussion immeasurably if we would all be civil. -ryand 16:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I seem to be? Don't be afraid to state the facts. I am. I'm a sarcastic and to-the-point person. I post sarcastic and to-the-point things. Like this for example:

Fact: Tifa loves Cloud Fact: Tifa is someone's lover Fact: Cloud and Tifa made promises to always be together Fact: Cloud and Tifa raise kids Fact: Cloud says he can only live and be happy by Tifa's side Fact: Tifa was made to complement Cloud, not some other lover Fact: Seventh heaven = Cloud's home

....but she can't be Cloud's lover. Nah, that's just ridiculous.

So anyways, here's my comments on you're statement:

1 - No kidding. Took you long enough to realize that one.

2 - So pretty much anything about Tifa being a koibito that is put in her Love Section means that it's automatically going to be assumed that she is Cloud's koibito, and you don't want people to think that because the quote is too vague". Okay. Know how to fix that problem? Take it out of the "Love Section" and put it in the "Characteristics Section" where it says "Nomura describes her as a mother, koibito, and close ally in battle". There. Tifa's character is described, koibito is in, no more drama unless people think koibito is still something to cry/whine about.

Does that sound better? RoseDincht 16:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

What the Cleriths as well Clotis think is unimportant. We're not here to discuss whose sweetheart Tifa is — Wikipedia isn't a forum. We're here to discuss whether or not the content of the love section is encyclopedic.
Tifa, Cloud, AND Barret live together in Edge and take care of the kids. Marlene is Barret's daughter after all. As for the promise, you're referring to this scene, correct?

Tifa: "Sephiroth… The Great Sephiroth. Isn't it hard to join SOLDIER?"
Cloud: "…I probably won't be able to come back to this town for a while…huh?"
Tifa: "Will you be in the newspapers if you do well?"
Cloud: "I'll try."
Tifa: "Hey, why don't we make a promise? Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind…… You came save me, all right?"
Cloud: "What?"
Tifa: "Whenever I’m in trouble, my hero will come and rescue me. I want to at least experience that once."
Cloud: "What?"
Tifa: "Come on—! Promise me—!"
Cloud: "All right... I promise."

I'll leave the readers who are unfamiliar with FFVII to "interpret if freely", to quote Nomura. The scene speaks for itself perfectly and please note that I have not implemented any viewpoint of this scene, merely what is scripted in the game. As for Scene 136 - Understanding, leaning against a character's shoulder hardly constitutes a romantic relationship. It's the dialogue that matters, and the dialogue differs depending on the choices a player makes in raising affection levels of either Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, and Barret. Any scene that is affected by the date mechanics that is non-linear in a game whose plot is linear in nature can hardly be considered at the same level of canoncity as scenes that aren't affected by the answer choices a player chooses and is automatically the default version. However, I won't go any further into that because we're not here to discuss whether or not the game portrays Cloud and Tifa as the canon couple.
To add on to ryan-d's second point, it has not gone from "'Koibito is original research' to 'We don't post all facts because it hurts other fans feelings', and now it's 'it's a clue, not an undeniable fact,'" to quote you, RoseDincht. Not once have we mentioned about being worried about offending other fans. If we were concerned with that, ryan-d, PresN, Oddishness, and I wouldn't have allowed the paragraph about Tifa representing light as a non-human being for Cloud or is a regular inhabitant of Radiant Garden. But we didn't, and we recognized it as something that didn't violate OR because those were interpretations given by Nomura. If you have read the link I provided earlier (and I will do so again: "Synthesis of published material serving to advance a position"), you'll note that synthesising published material to advance a material goes under original research. So in conclusion, we've steadily maintained that the information written in the Love section is original research. Also by "clue", I did not mean to affirm that Nomura implied that there was a mutual romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa, I meant that it was a clue/idea/notion that may or may not imply the mutual feelings between the two.

"Koibito = Lover. Lover usually = Love. Love section is on Tifa's article. Therefore it should probably go there."

Hm, correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that the literal defintion of a word is what gives meaning of the sentence, regardless of whatever context it's in. Take a look at this sentence: "...in the latter part of twentieth century, the noted director Steven Spielberg often employed the notions of flight in his films." Let's apply the same logic to this sentence with the word 'employed'. Employed = to hire. Hiring usually = jobs. Therefore, this means Spielberg hired the notions of flight in his films. Is this analysis correct? No. Even though employed means to hire, in this context, employed means to use. Now you might be wondering what the heck that example has to anything with this issue. The whole purpose of giving that example was to refute that the interpretation that the words "mother", "sweetheart", and "ally" refers to the "many dimensions of her character" — and that those with this viewpoint needs "common sense." The second interpretation is not at all illogical. By "her character", Nomura seems to use the word "character" in the sense of one's personality, not one's status as a fictional character. However, because you have stated that it could also belong in Tifa's characteristics section, I will withdraw from further comments in this area unless forced.
I think you have to understand, RoseDincht, that we are in no way attacking your Cloti beliefs. I do have to point out, however, that all the "facts" you pointed out are merely opinions. We are merely questioning your support of the inclusion of the "koibito" analysis as encyclopedic. The "koibito" analysis constitutes under original research, regardless of whether or not reliable sources are used — you seem to be taking bits and pieces to advance your belief that Cloud and Tifa are a canon couple (or in another words, synthesising published materials to advance a position).

"Know how to fix that problem? Take it out of the "Love Section" and put it in the "Characteristics Section" where it says "Nomura describes her as a mother, koibito, and close ally in battle". There. Tifa's character is described, koibito is in, no more drama unless people think koibito is still something to cry/whine about."

You do realize that merely cutting and pasting the same content under a different section will not make it any less unencyclopedic, because rewording will be necessary. But perhaps I have assumed things too much.
What I find sad, though, there are twice as much edits to the Love section that there is to the overall content in TIfa's article. It seems to me that the only noteworthy attributes fans give Tifa and Aerith are by their love for Cloud. Tifa and Aerith are wonderful characters not because they have romantic feelings for Cloud, but because of their personality, their role in the story, and the concept and creation behind them. The reason why I avoid FFVII forums and its users is because many of them seem to have forgotten to look at the bigger picture of what makes the game and the characters legendary. And when this fanatism embodies in Wikipedians when editing articles, the result isn't pleasant, beause editors forget the purpose of what topics are important and what topics are not. If we were to rate Tifa and Aerith's love lives by WP:1.0 importance scale, which nearly all of the WikiProjects have adopted, it would rate of low-importance. The plot of FFVII won't be hindered nor would the players be missing much if the romance factor was taken out of the game. Romance, in FFVII, is merely a sidetrip for the story, it doesn't embody the main idea of FFVII. This is why I'm for 100% removal of the Love section without any sort of mentions because I frankly don't want Wikipedia to turn into a battleground between Cloti and Clerith fans. However, I am willing to make a compromise. And I want your word, RoseDincht, that you will at least listen to a sample rewording of that section instead of reasserting your personal analyses that Tifa is Cloud's koibito. I can't guarantee that I'll be able to immediately to type it up. I have the wording in my head, I just need to find sources for to back it up, so that'll take some time. I need your word, because I don't want to type up a compromise that'll automatically be rejected without even being considered.
If this conflict can't be resolved, then the best course of action is getting comments for request from non-SE-knowledgeable Wikipedians and if necessary, take it up with the Arbitration Committee, in which a binding solution can be instituted. However, I hope the conflict won't go that far and that we may find an appeasing solution (realize that both sides will have to sacrifice some parts of their beliefs in order to find a compromise that will settle this debate.) —Mirlen 21:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

First off, nobody in their right mind would have expected anybody to read all of that shit. Jesus Christ, did you have to write THAT much? I'd prefer it if you were just blunt. Fancy words, long editorials and spiffy vocabulary is nice, but conscidering that I'm sick and distracted by pretty things, I can't concentrate completely on that. I can't even believe that I managed to read all of that without skimming through. I guess it was just for your sake. Be honored. Normally I would've said "too long, didn't bother reading" (Hey, people are saying I look "unprofessional" anyway, what's the difference?)

And don't give me that Steven Speilberg shit. You KNOW what I was referring to. There was a love section in Tifa's article, that was most likely where the "GIRLFRIEND" part should've been. You don't need to write a big novel to figure that one out. But if it'll stop everyone's bitching, put it in the Characteristics thing. You seemed to like that idea.

As for the head resting on the shoulder hardly contributing to a romantic relationship? Would YOU sleep against a girl (or guy, depending on what you are, or what you're sexuality is) that you had no interest in all night long, wake up, but then let him/her sleep against you a little longer? Have you been in many relationships? That stuff counts. Common sense please.

I didn't read you're link, by the way. You post way too much shit as it is. I didn't feel like reading more.

And how would it be unencyclopedic? Who gives a shit? It talks about her character. It belongs in characteristics. I don't see what needs to be reworded.

And if my word is that important to you, by all means, write it up. I'm curious. I'd like to see what you're going to write. And for christ sake if ANYBODY responds to this make it less then a paragraph long and be blunt about it. Fuck looking professional. Be fucking blunt. It'll be easier to read. RoseDincht 01:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for making my response rather lengthy; however, if one had read through all of it carefully, one would note that my responses were pretty straightforward. I'll try my best to tighten my wording, and since you asked for blunt, I'll try this style...see if it's readable.

"I guess it was just for your sake. Be honored. Normally I would've said "too long, didn't bother reading" (Hey, people are saying I look "unprofessional" anyway, what's the difference?)"

Thank you for taking time to read my response, I really appreciate it. I know my responses tend to unbearably long, so thanks again. :) And RoseDincht, I assure you, whether or not your prose style is written in an unprofessional style isn't the problem — it's your support, or previous support rather now that you're wiling to comrpromise, in including an unpublished analysis that consitutes as OR. Even if you're unprofessional in your responses, the first four sentences of your last post were entertaining to read — they made me laugh (or LOL, if you prefer). :D

"And don't give me that Steven Speilberg shit. You KNOW what I was referring to."

*grins* Ah, forgive me, I was merely refuting your argument that the other intrepreations besides the "Tifa and Cloud are a canon couple" in regards to the koibito was just as plausible and in one's perspective, could validly be seen with "common sense."

"But if it'll stop everyone's bitching, put it in the Characteristics thing. You seemed to like that idea."

Yes, it's my second-choice option.

"As for the head resting on the shoulder hardly contributing to a romantic relationship? Would YOU sleep against a girl (or guy, depending on what you are, or what you're sexuality is) that you had no interest in all night long, wake up, but then let him/her sleep against you a little longer?"

As much as I am tempted to argue with you on this, I won't because we're not here to debate whether or not Cloud is romantically in love with Tifa. (And nope, this isn't my way of admitting defeat.)

"I didn't read you're link, by the way. You post way too much shit as it is. I didn't feel like reading more."

That's why you didn't know that "synthesising published materials to advance a position" falls under OR. Makes sense.

"And how would it be unencyclopedic?"

To get that answer, m'dear, you'd have to reread through all of the posts of the following users: ryan-d, PresN, Oddishness, and myself. If I explained this again, then I would have to repost my arguments, and you wouldn't want to go through the excruciating experience of rereading the same hash, now would you? ;)

"I don't see what needs to be reworded."

The reason we opposed the Love section, was not the section itself, but the content within it. If we merely cut and pasted the original content in the Love section and simply put it under the Characteristics, then we'd might as well leave it under the Love section.

"And if my word is that important to you, by all means, write it up. I'm curious. I'd like to see what you're going to write."

Don't get so cocky now, I'm not writing the compromise because your word is crucial to me. I'm writing it for the sake of maintaining a peace and stopping the reverting conflict that had been going on between ryan-d and you as well other IP users. (Blunt enough for you? Just as a note, I'm not trying to attack you.)
Don't expect me the compromise to turn up anytime soon though, I tend to be slow in writing things when I'm not driven by my fickle muse, who takes utter delight in disappearing at the worst of times and leaving me with writer's block.

"And for christ sake if ANYBODY responds to this make it less then a paragraph long and be blunt about it. Fuck looking professional. Be fucking blunt. It'll be easier to read."

Oh dear. It's still long, but my responses are short. Plus, all the information within blockquotes don't count because I was merely quoting you. Hopefully it's still readable. I still prefer being professional in manner, but I'll try to be blunt and listen-able at the same time. —Mirlen 02:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

While the english translation of Reunion Files say's "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character" Which leads many to believe that Nomura is only talking about her character or personality traits is wrong.

Nomura never says anything about tifa's character or personality in the japanese text.What he does talk about is the various roles/positions she has in AC and then in a series of connected statements says what they are,she is like a mother,she is a lover/girlfriend and she's an ally in battle.

The fact that Nomura used the word "koibito" is very telling because it has only one specific meaning and is never used to describe a person's character. - Premadonna 05:55, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

They're not going to listen to what you have to say. But thanks for trying anyway. :D I can't beleive people don't understand the meaning of koibito. It's RIGHT there.

And judging by what Tetsuya Nomura has said right there, wouldn't you infer that they're in a romantic relationship? As of now, they're canon. What, are their pixels going to go and cheat with other pixels? Real intelligent.

Original research my ass. Nomura said it so I'm inclined to beleive him, since he IS the creator and all. Don't like it? Suck it up. Infact, if you'd like other people's opinions who are neutral to this whole LTD mess, they're tell you the exact same thing. Try [[ryu kaze

Oh, and whoever said, "There's more to Tifa and Aeris than their love lives." Well, okay, who said that there wasn't? They're important aspects of their characters though, and Tifa's revolves largely around Cloud, a thing that even a retard CAN'T deny. We're not here to shove our Cloti fangirl beleifs on you guys or what-have-you. We simply want to state the facts. narutokun37

Maybe it would be easier to believe that you aren't here to "shove your Cloti fangirl beliefs on us" if you hadn't vandalized the article repeatedly and made personal attacks on other pages despite repeated warnings.
But let's disregard that and address your point. I'm going to assume you haven't read WP:OR yet, because you seem to misunderstand the meaning of "original research". To quote:

"And judging by what Tetsuya Nomura has said right there, wouldn't you infer that they're in a romantic relationship?"

The problem with that is that one has to infer the romantic relationship. It isn't stated. To go from "Nomura refers to Tifa as a koibito" to "As of now, [Tifa and Cloud] are canon" is, to quote WP:OR, "personal analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position the editor may hold".
I am hesitant to bring more editors into the conflict and make this dispute messier than it already is. However, since you feel it will help the discussion, I've left a message on Ryu Kaze's talk page. -ryand 14:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Until that koibito/love section thing is typed up, I'm not gonna post here. But for the record, I wasn't referring to the ENTIRE love section being switched to Characteristics. Just the koibito quote.

And yes, it was easier to read this time around. Thank you. RoseDincht 15:36, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

*sigh* Just when I thought the conversation was ending on civil and peaceful terms, new users pop up to add into the conflict after staying silent for a time (within perfect rights to speak up again, of course), though I hoped to wrap up this discussion because it's 54 kb long and needs archiving...Ah well, it couldn't be hoped.
Anyway, I remember the little dispute Ryu Kaze and I had over the Love section in Aerith's article way back then (we were both sort of new to Wikipedia)...I partially grin when I think about it and thankfully, we ended on good terms. The best part of it all I felt was the fact that we were able to overcome our differences despite our differing opinions on some aspects of the LTD material. By the way Ryu, if you're reading this, I wanted to say that your Maiden novella analysis was well-written (see the WP:FF talk page for details), but now that I look upon it as an older editor, however reasonable it seemed, it was unpublished analysis.
RoseDincht: I'm glad it was easier to read. :) —Mirlen 01:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


Correct me if I'm wrong but anyone(whether their new users or not)can freely contribute to the discussion if they want to. And if so,then for you(Mirlen)to suggest that my post or anyone else's is just an attempt to spur on the conflict is completely unwarrented and unfair on your part.

My previous post was,however,an attempt to clear up a common misconception people have about Nomura's actual quote and speaking of which,I think the appropriate place to put the now infamous(atleast to some)"koibito" description along with the other two is in the advent children section because as I said before Nomura is talking about what positions/roles tifa has in the movie. -Premadonna 06:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh dear, I'm afraid you've misunderstood me. I dislike conflict immensely, you understand, and I was merely expressing that I had hoped to wrap it up and settle it on peaceful terms. HOWEVER, I did say that both of you were "within perfect rights to speak up again, of course", to quote my previous post. I never said anyone here couldn't contribute to the discussion — I did say that you were certainly entitled to speak up — I just merely wanted the little debate to end. And if I gave you the impression that I was accusing you of spurring the conflict on purpose, I apologize, Premadonna. I didn't mean for it to come out that way, so I wanted to make that clear this time.
I won't argue on what with anyone on what the interpretation could mean any more than I have to, but I will say that both interpretations/sides could be argued quite well either way. —Mirlen 16:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)