Talk:Tifa Lockhart/29 December 2005 - 24 October 2006

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Screen time...?

Ladies and gentlemen! A revert skirmish is going on. User:220.239.189.51 seems to want the following text removed...

Out of the original Final Fantasy VII cast, Tifa has the largest role after Cloud.

On following grounds, according to the edit comments: "having the most screentime does not mean she played the largest part!!!" User:Protofox reverted that with comment "true, but compared to the rest of the original ff7 cast (i.e. barret, cid, cait sith, yuffie, vincent, red xiii and aeris) she played the biggest role, behind cloud and ahead of vincent and aeris." after which 220.239.189.51 removed it with comment "It's screentime! She had the most SCREENTIME after Cloud!"

I'm with Protofox in this, anyone else? In either case, as the anonymous user appears to agree, a comment about Tifa having most screen time after Cloud, as a major character or not, should be included in either case and we can't just remove it - I think it's a notable fact then. =) --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 19:35, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Finally, a talk page discussion. Anyway, I would agree both ways - that Tifa has both the most screen time and the biggest role after Cloud. What I'm interested to know more about is User:220.239.189.51's argument that Tifa did not play the largest role out of the original Final Fantasy VII cast. -ryan-d 04:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey guys! Sorry if I caused too much of a commotion on this page. I really don't think Tifa played a big role, plot-wise. I also don't think that her role should be high-lighted as "the largest role after Cloud", because other characters too, such as Aerith and Zack, had pivotal roles. User:220.239.189.51
No much "commotion" - Just remember in the future if you have some big issues with the article, it's just best to discuss the things over in the talk page. Anyways, personally, Tifa definitely did play a major role, that's for certain; I'd even personally tilt to the viewpoint that she had the biggest role after Cloud, even when that's definitely debatable as most of the other characters have relatively minor roles. Exploring Tifa's relationship with Cloud forms a huge part of the storyline though... Zack had a relatively minor role in comparison. But Aerith's role being pretty big is a good point - though she has an, em, underlying role for most of the game. Which role is huger? --wwwwolf (barks/growls) 17:15, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Both Aerith's and Tifa's roles were as supporters of Cloud. I really think Aerith played a bigger role, as his "protectress" and "guardian angel", like with her Limit Break in the church. But let's not make that into a big deal.

At the beginning of this discussion, someone wrote that Tifa had teh largest role in FFVII after Cloud. I felt that to be untrue because she didn't really. Change FFVII to AVALANCHE, and keep it that way, I'd agree with you. User:220.239.189.51

First of all, AVALANCHE is a very ambiguous grouping. It could refer to the original group of Barret, Tifa, Biggs, Wedge and Jessie, or it could extend to include all nine playable characters. Secondly, I would agree with Wwwwolf that Aeris's role in the film is somewhat... "background". She makes a few cameo appearances in Mega Flares and stuff, but I thought the only appearance that truly felt like her was the last scene in the Lifestream, and later on in the church. Ultimately, though, the argument is a difficult one, as is anything related to the age-old Aeris vs Tifa war. Tifa fans will interpret things one way, and Aeris fans will interpret it another. --ryan-d 14:40, 3 January 2006 (UTC)


"AVALANCHE" isn't an ambiguous grouping at all. It's the title that's used for Barret's/Cloud's group throughout the entire game. Aerith even calls herself a member of AVALANCHE when she meets Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge in the Lifestream in Maiden Who Travels the Planet.

Ryu Kaze 04:55 February 4, 2006

May I ask why it matters who has the biggest screentime—because whether or not you all meant to, but it just fuels more amo in the Aerith vs. Tifa fan war. I don't think having more screentime exactly proves who had a more important role or anything of the such. Maybe in some plots, it does, but FFVII is more than just any plot of a story. And let's not include the fact that Tifa has 'a more important role' or anything related to that, because even a trivial issue like that is controversial and will raise the Aerith vs. Tifa war. The only character in FFVII I feel safe and non-controversial to mention who had the most screentime is Cloud.
Aerith and Tifa BOTH played important roles in FFVII. Done. It does NOT matter whether Aerith or Tifa played a more important role. They were both women who played an important in Cloud's life. How each woman played an important role in his life as well as the circumstances are different so I think there's no way to measure it equally or to say one is better than the other. Besides, wikipedia has a NPOV policy—to avoid the revert wars and clashes between Aerith/Clerith fans and Tifa/Cloti fans, can we PLEASE just write both women played an important role? —Mirlen 22:27, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Breast reduction

Should something be mentioned about her apparent breast reduction in Advent Children?

nah, I dont really see it as a reduction, more like making her proportional Spencer 16:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I think they did that to make her look more human.
I dont think its easily comparable. I personally dont see it worth mentioning. -- Psi edit 01:27, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Agreed; per Spencer and Psi edit. —Mirlen 22:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

"Tifa" derived from "Tifaret" or "Tiffany"?

I'm bringing up this line of discussion in relation to this part of the Trivia section of the article:

"Some fans believe that Tifa's name is derived from Tiferet, an aspect of the Kabbalah tree of life. This theory, however, has been debunked by FF7 Dismantling, which states that 'Tifa' is nothing more than a shortened form of the name 'Tiffany'."

I own the Final Fantasy 7 Dismantling book and have not been able to find anywhere in the book that mentions this. On the character profile pages for most of the main characters, it gives the origins of their names (for Barret, Aerith, Red XIII, Cait Sith, Sephiroth, and Yuffie), but not for Vincent, Cid, Cloud, or Tifa. Further, I haven't seen anything of this nature in the interviews with Nomura, Kitase, or any of the other creators. At this point, I'm a bit skeptical about it actually being in there at all.

On the other hand, the idea that the name comes from "Tifaret" is supported by quite a few things, all of which are brought up in this fan-made plot analysis:

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html

Follow that link and do a ctrl+f search for "Analyzing the Storyline of Final Fantasy VII Based on Its Symbolism" to see what I mean.

Basically, I think that this information should be struck from the Trivia section of the article if it can't be supported with either a scan of the page in question, or at the very least a reference to which page it is on in the book, which I could then verify (which I would do with a scan of the page and a translation of it).

Here's hoping to someone responding to this.

Ryu Kaze February 5, 2006

I wrote that section based on information I found on an in-depth Tifa website [1], which I assumed to be true. As far as I know, two versions of FFVII Dismantling are available - the 1997 edition and the updated, 2000 edition. I'm not sure which version you own, but trying the other version might yield some results. Personally, I'm skeptical about the whole "Tiferet" thing - I've read a few analyses of FF7 that reference a lot of Jewish mythology, and a lot of it looks like overanalysis to me. -ryan-d 15:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The only differences between the two editions of the book are that the second one has an additional 9 pages of information concerning the International version of the game, with an index updated accordingly (and a variant cover, a green one with Aerith's face instead of a blue one with Cloud's face). Otherwise, they're the same beast.

As for that Tifa fansite, it is a really good site and has a lot of good information, but the thing to keep in mind there is that -- as the site owner theirself says in the site's FAQ -- she doesn't own FF7 Dismantling herself and what's posted on the site is merely second-hand information from others added to her own assumptions based on playing the North American version of the game. Some information there is even incorrect, such as the timeline which cites the Cetra as being from offworld, a common misconception among people who have played only the English version of the game. In all fairness, it's an understandable mistake, but one that could have been compensated for on a second playthrough or a reading of the game's script, which states quite clearly that the Cetra were born on that planet and that they return to their Promised Land at the end of their journey (an obvious allusion to the return to the Lifestream, confirmed by the Maiden Who Travels the Planet novella in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide).

As convincing as the site sounds, being that the information is second-hand to begin with and that I personally have never seen this informationg regarding the name "Tiffany" anywhere in the book to begin with -- and I've had it for years -- I'm a bit skeptical. Especially since the origin of Tifa's name is not listed on her profile page the way the origins of Cait Sith, Yuffie, Barret, Aerith, Sephiroth, and Red XIII's names are. All indication that I have seen so far is that the origin of Cloud, Tifa, Vincent, and Cid's names are completely left out, and intentionally so.

Given that the profiles for these characters goes to the extent to describe their clothing and why they wear those particular clothes, it stands to reason that they would mention the origins of the names of these characters there as well if such information was intended to be imparted. Especially with the other six characters' profiles being written that way.

Another fault I have with the site -- though this one's of an altogether different nature -- is that it doesn't cite its information very extensively. Obviously asking for a scan of every relevant passage cited would be a bit excessive, but I don't feel like asking for at least the approximate location of hotly debatable information.

As far as the analysis of the game based on Judaism goes, there are, indeed, plenty of essays that dig way too deep, but I personally find the analysis that I linked to above to be a decent essay that makes few assumptions that aren't made extremely obvious given the nature of the concepts involved. The only exception I can think is this matter of "Tifaret," and as there's a claim present here that challenges that, I'm interested in examining the matter. Especially since I've owned the cited source material for years without seeing as much as a hint of the claim being made.

I'm going to look into other means of confirming this. I'll get back to you on how it goes.

Ryu Kaze 5:37 February 9, 2006


I was able to get a message to Jennifer (the owner of that Tifa site) through somebody else to ask about it. The response I got is that neither she nor a friend of hers that owns the book are able to supply a page reference or a section reference at this time. Not sure what all that entails, but her friend only suggested Googling for "Tifanny," "Lockhart," and "Tifa" in Japanese. She said that confirmation could be found on an old Japanese Wiki and maybe some Japanese forums/fansites too, though the Wiki site that was mentioned no longer has a host server, and there were no relevant results to be found after extensive -- though possibly not completely comprehensive; tried as best I could -- searching.
To be honest, I remain skeptical about the idea. Both I and my friend who got my request to Jennifer own FF7 Dismantling, so I'm not sure why we were being directed to run "ティファニーロックハートティファ" through Google and look for dead fansites when the proof is supposed to be in the book. He's still willing to give the idea the benefit of the doubt and suggested that, perhaps, it's in a different book, and asked Jennifer to contact him later if she is able to get some verification. As things stand right now, though, there's no evidence. Even when Googling in Japanese, I wasn't able to turn up anything on it, and, of course, an encyclopedia can't go on the benefit of the doubt. Feel free to try to contact her yourself if you're not satisfied with this response.
Anyway, I suggest that the claim that FF7 Dismantling debunks the theory of "Tifaret" remain out of the article until some actual proof (meaning a scan from an officially published or officially licensed book) can be provided. For now, I'm going to leave the message as it reads: That some fans think "Tifaret" is the origin and others think "Tiffany." NPOV and true. Ryu Kaze 08:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Trivia Sources

Is there a source available for some of the things mentioned in the trivia section? Namley this one:

Originally, Aerith had not only her own role, but Tifa's role as Cloud's "childhood friend". This was later dropped from Aerith's character and added to Tifa's. Kamina 17:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I know many people believe that was the case and that allegedly the production crew decided to change things and kill her after one of a crewmembers wife died or something like that.

Personally ive never read anything like that and if no one can find a source it should probably be removed.

Leon Evelake 04:37, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Damn, I'm sure I've seen a source for this. (An interview, if I recall correctly.) But I can't seem to find it. But I have to agree, without a source this shouldn't be inculded. --JiFish(Talk/Contrib) 15:54, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The actual [invalid] rumor surrounding the idea for Aerith's death was that Hironobu Sakaguchi's mother had died during the production of Final Fantasy VI and that prompted him to have Aerith die in Final Fantasy VII. In actuality, she died during the production of Final Fantasy III, way before Final Fantasy VII's production, and this merely prompted Sakaguchi to being implementing more spiritual themes in his games until it got to the point it is now.
The truth about Aerith's death is that Tetsuya Nomura came up with it and talked to Yoshinori Kitase about it, and after a long conversation on how it would work, and Nomura suggesting putting Tifa into the story (his personal favorite between Aerith and Tifa, and one of his favorite designs, and actually his original design for Aerith), they went with it. Nomura said he got the idea to do that because he was tired of cliches in movies and games where people make some meaningful sacrifice for some grand, dramatic purpose, and wanted to have a death that seemed utterly pointless and wasn't actually a sacrifice at all.
So, with that, they had Aerith be murdered while calling Holy, successful in calling the spell by only a moment. Her death seemed pointless at the time because you don't find out about Holy for a long time, and even at the end of the game, with Holy failing, it begins to look like she risked her life for nothing, but then she guides the Lifestream to the planet's surface and gives Holy room to work and everyone's saved. So in the end, her death had meaning, but still wasn't a sacrifice, and Nomura and Kitase were quite happy with it. Kitase also said they didn't like the idea of a cliche ressurrection, so Aerith was staying dead forevermore. This all comes from an issue of EDGE magazine, by the way. It's brought up in that plot analysis by Glenn Morrow:
http://faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html


So yeah there you go in case you were wondering. Ryu Kaze 21:27, 2 March 2006 (UTC)


That article is full of Advent Children spoilers, next time please warn everyone. Anyway thanks now that there is a source the article can be adjusted with the proper info.

Leon Evelake 01:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Biography

"When Tifa missed her footing on a rope bridge leading into the mountain, he ran to save her but was too late, and both of them fell into the gorge below.

Cloud survived the accident while suffering no more than scraped knees, but Tifa was in a coma for a week. Tifa's father held Cloud responsible for the incident[3], and his relationship with Tifa remained distant. Cloud blamed himself for the mishap as well and felt that he had been unable to save Tifa because of his own weakness. His self-reproach led to anger toward himself, which then led to him into fights with others."

I don't recall this story in FF VII. I recall this story as being between Locke and Rachel in FF VI. Is this accurate?

  • It is indeed very much accurate. Sjalvastefan

Xenogears poster

I move that we get rid of the image. It's blurry and terrible looking, and doesn't accomplish too much. urutapu 01:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

  • Do as you want, that is the idea of Wikipedia. It was I who put in the picture, mostly to people wanting to look at it. The reason it is blurry and terrible looking is that the picture itself is a really small part of the actuall screen in Xenogears, so I had to go real close with my Z800i to take the picture, with the size of 1028. I'm proud of the outcome, I can't make it better myself. So, if you want, take it away, but remember that is may be funny to watch and it only takes a small space of the page. Sjalvastefan
...funny to watch? What?—urutapu 22:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Bad way of describing it, okay? To me is is good to watch things that I have missed. The Tifa-poster in Xenogears is a very small piece of the game, and easly overlooked. Now everyone can se how the Tifa picture looks like. Thats the "fun" part of it.
  • I have removed the image in question for all the reasons urutapu gave. I would really like to see a better screenshot of it, though. -ryan-d 05:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Cameo Appearences

I don't know why it even stated this under cameo appearences, but for some reason Tifa's first appearence was KH2 now? Um. Yeah. So I changed it a bit, considering her first cameo appearence was technically in Ehrgeiz because it came out years before KH2 was even developed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.69.4.81 (talk • contribs) 04:48, 29 August 2006.

Quote - "Fans debate over whether or not Tifa actually exists as human: Only Sephiroth, Cloud, Leon, Yuffie, Sora & co. actually see her. Fans state she is rather a physical manifestation of Cloud's light, as Sephiroth is of Cloud's darkness, and Sora is just witnessing Cloud's internal struggle. Neither Tifa nor Sephiroth are "nobodies", but rather "spirits of light and darkness" taking the form of human bodies. Nomura states this as a possibilty."
In Advent children other than the regular gang, Marlene, Denzel and Loz could definitely see her, Loz wasn't fighting himself in the church. It should also be noted that Kingdom Hearts isn't necessarily included as canon in the FF universe. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 61.69.225.107 (talk • contribs) 15:57, 12 October 2006.

The Design Thing

So why did you take out the thing about the design? It had FACTS stated in that article about Tifa's design. How stupid. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.39.88.246 (talk • contribs) 00:54, 24 October 2006.

"Characteristics" section

Is it just me, or does this seem like POV/OR?

Because of her revealing clothing and large breasts, many assume that Tifa is the sex symbol of Final Fantasy VII. While that may be true, she takes a more original role as being more than just eye-candy. Throughout the game, the players realize that Tifa does have a past, intelligence, feelings and emotions, rather than being the giddy and brainless bimbo with a large chest. In contrast to the stereotyped characters that serve as sex symbols, she appears as a shy and somber character rather then a woman who would flaunt herself while clinging to the male caracters. All things considered, Tifa may be looked upon as a sex symbol, yet Tifa herself is not very self-aware of her own beauty, or at least does not boast about it.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ryajinor (talk • contribs) 11:48, 31 October 2006.

Yes. Yes, actually. It has been annoying me for awhile, and it is neither encyclopedic nor does it cite its sources. I shall remove it. -ryan-d 05:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)