Talk:Tidus

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Contents

[edit] References

Does anyone else feel the page is oversaturated with references now? Does the average reader really need to know the word-for-word quote illustrating the entire character's history and growth? It really slows the whole article down, in my opinion.

King Zeal 15:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article on Paine

JarlaxleArtemis 02:10, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC) Can someone create an article for Paine?

 Why paine? that might be in the FFX-2 section ...

[edit] What in God's name??

Of course, if he does that, the dream will end and Tidus himself will disappear, which will suck the big one, but hey, who cares, the Fayth are getting tired of this shit. Go kill Sin, dawg. Seriously. Loser.

What is this? I don't know who wrote this, but we at Wikipedia hold ourselves to a far higher standard of quality! There are many peacock terms here... offensive and unprofessional writing... addressing the user... inaccurate and downright incorrect information... I will be doing some serious work on this article, yes indeed!PiccoloNamek 09:25, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

Ok then, I've fixed all of the really offensive errors, but it still needs a lot of work. I'm going to bed for tonight though.PiccoloNamek 09:41, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)


I don't know who it was, but someone was putting random cursing in the Trivia, too. I removed it. Does anybody want to look into whatever moron is doing this? Buster Sword

[edit] His Name

Because he is never directly referred to by name in any Final Fantasy games, the pronunciation of his name among fans is sometimes unclear, although based on the expected Japanese pronuciation it should be Teedus.

Actually, there is no "ti/tee" sound in Japanese, so we really can't say for sure how the Japanese would pronounce it. The only evidence of his name being "tee-dus" comes from young Wakka in Kingdom Hearts, but whether or not this is a reliable source is a questionable (since, if I'm not mistaken, KH and FFX were done by different groups of people within Squaresoft).

  • Since they pronounce it "teedah" in their own language, they would be like to pronounce it "teedah" or "teedus" in English. Kappa 22:17, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
    • I know, but I'm saying that ti/tee does not occur naturally in Japanese. However, because someone was nice enough to include the way his name is written in the original Japanese game (thanks, whoever you are), I see that it's written in katakana (which allows for unnatural Japanese sounds). Kakashi-sensei 03:48, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I started to play KHII and was startled to discover that Selphie pronounces his name "Tie-dus". I edited it yesterday to note the contradiction. --164.107.199.215 19:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I also have a question about his name. Japanese grammar is somewhat unknown to me, but as far as I can read, his name, in katakana, reads "Teiida" and not "Tiida" as written next to it in romaji. Now... am I just missing some grammatical detail (which wouldn't suprise me), or did everybody else just not notice this somehow? Cause if they did, "Tie-dus", and not "Tee-dus" sounds like a clear "winner" to me.

  • Hecko 01:30, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
The i character in his name is not a regular i (イ), but a small i (ィ). In katakana, te (テ) + small i = ti (ティ). Thus, we have "Tiida". If the developers were going for a "tie" sound, they would have used ta + i (タイ) instead. --Majin Izlude 03:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Oooooh, I see, thanks a bundle for the info, always good to now. Hecko 15:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

About the Japanese spelling thing. It's a Japanese game, so how come they didn't spell his name with the kana for "ti" (it exist in "Kunrei" or something, which, if I understand correctly, is widely used in Japan), instead of making it "te"+"i"? Seems kind of bothersome to me.
I think you might mean "chi", it's kind of the "japanese" way of Romanizing it, although it's still pronounced "chi". ティ dictates a "ti" sound as opposed to "chi".—ウルタプ 05:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
No no, I mean "ti". Like I said, "ti" exist in the Kunrei transcription system, based on Japanese phonetics. "Chi" is from the Hepburn one, which is based on English phonetics, so I know what I said. Another way I could have phrased my question is, since the game hails from Japan, then how can we be sure that they intend the names to be romanized using Hepburn and not Kunrei? With Tidus, it doesn't change pronounciation, but it would be spelled "T'îda" in stead. But if you go back to just FFIX, "Jitan" (Zidane) would become "Zitan" (and so on and so forth). I'm not sure if you get what I'm saying or if I'm just confusing you even more. --80.199.156.223 18:45, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I knew what I was talking about as well. o.o; It's only ROMANIZED as "ti"--it's still pronounced "chi". It's because ち is part of the "t" set of kana. It's like how ふ (fu) can be Romanized "hu", because it's part of the "h" set.—ウルタプ 00:24, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
In that case, if what you say is true, the Kunrei article is right. This part: "Additional complications appear with newer kana combinations such as ティーム(チーム) team. In Hepburn, these would be distinguished as different sounds and represented tīmu and chīmu respectively, giving better indications of the English pronunciations. For most Japanese speakers, however, the sounds ティ "t'i" and チ "ti" are the same phoneme", makes absolutely no sense to me... But basically, what you're saying is, even though they are romanized differently, pronounciation remains the same and is more similar to the Hepburn way of romanizing it than the Kunrei way (at least for a foreign speaker)? Like you said, "ti" is still pronounced "chi". --80.199.156.223 02:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hepburn pretty much caters to Western phonetics, so pretty much just pronounce it in the most obvious way. It's really why I like Hepburn so much, it's good and simple.—ウルタプ 05:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I think I get it now then. Thanks a lot for clearing that up for me ^_^ --80.199.156.223 12:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Full storyline?

The section that explains Tidus' role in the storyline appears to be relating the entire game's story in some detail. Although Tidus does play an important role throughout the whole game (being the main character), I think this seems a little much. Perhaps we could shorten it to just the basic premise of his story thread: i.e., being transported by Sin, eventually meeting Wakka etc., and becoming Yuna's guardian. Anything else should probably go in the game's main article.

Thoughts? — User:209.232.212.151

I don't agree. That would pretty much make this a generic character profile, which can be found on a few dozen fansites, rather than a more thorough explanation of the character, how the story relates to him, and some of the ideologies found within. I personally vote to keep it as-is. -King Zeal 13:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with reducing the amount of detail in this article, as it's basically a very long plot summary. There isn't really a need to describe how the party assaulted Sin, or how Yuna began to change, and the revelation of Yu Yevon being Sin. There isn't even that much detail in the story section of the FFX article, and it's just bulky. The article should focus more on Tidus' and not emcompass the entire plot of the game. Eowynjedi 00:12, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering if it might be an idea to put something in about the scene at lake macalania? where Tidus discovers that Yuna will die if she summons the final aeon. I know it'll lengthen it a bit, but just a sentence or two, because its kinda important-ish--Dyna Dude 10:36, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I think that's a good idea (actually I was kind of surprised that it was missing from the beheamoth summary that was there before) since it's a pretty important moment in both of their developments. Eowynjedi 15:02, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "resemblances"... foolish

I took it out, because it was nothing but fancruft speculation, and someone put it back in again, adding Cloud Strife to the list. I'm gonna take it out, again, because it doesn't belong there. Why is it possibly encyclopedic that someone thinks that one anime character looks like another? Sure, Tidus and Cloud have the same character designer. But that's as far as the resemblances go. As far as this designer's style goes, they look quite different. Their both being blond and caucasian is not enough for a resemblance. I hate it when fans put these bits on character pages. "this character bears a striking resemblance to this character from a completely unrelated series, so why am I bothering to mention this, since they're unrelated?" And I don't want to bother discussing the Digimon character there. God... They're from different companies, character designers, mediums... Tidus is a realistically-rendered teenager, and Takaishi is a super-deformed kid. As I said before, being blond and causasian (or asian, correctly) is NOT grounds for a resemblance. Certainly not for this article. --Marcg106 20:47, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Actally, many FF Character articles are starting to use it. The fact is Resemblance, in this case, deals with Tidus being compares to others with similar designs. And I though that the Takeru of Digimon's 2nd season had that resemblance. Also both Takeru is 3 fourths asian, while Tidus was full okinawan asian in design with bleached-hair and tanned skin.
    • They're only there because you're putting them there. Comparisons to COMPLETELY unrelated characters do not belong in these articles. See the discussions [[1]] [[2]] if you truly wish to argue this. Really, it doesn't help the articles. --Marcg106 23:27, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Final Fantasy X-2 info

For a character who barely appears in the game at all, Tidus doesn't require a FFX-2 section for him that's large enough to detail his role in the original game, especially when that section is full of non-notable info that includes fan-speculation, uncited sources of criticism that are possibly non-NPOV and potentially erroneous information all around. And, again, his role isn't that large in the game. He's more plot device than character in X-2. Ryu Kaze 00:16, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree The section needs to be condensed considering how minor a character he is. Perhaps it could be merged with the 'other appearances' section. Plebmonk 01:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overdrives

I removed the information about them (it was basically just how to execute them correctly and how he gained new techs) as per the [is not a strategy guide] policy. Eowynjedi 20:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tidus' name correction

sorry for making a new topic here. I'm a little in a rush right now. ok here it is.. there is no character "Ti" in japanese right? instead it is replaced by "Chi". the first character in Tidus' japanese name is that character. So maybe it's more correct to put "Chiida" inside those parentheses next to his name? Gimme your thoughts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 210.1.95.140 (talk) 17:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

No, that's not "chi" (チ). It's "ti" (ティ) alright. Japanese has several ways of conveying sounds from foreign languages. ティ ("te" and a small "i") is one of them.—ウルタプ 17:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

okay thanks I remember now. my excuses. we can delete this.

[edit] Hero

I understand that protagonist is more correct, but I wanted a win win situation for everyone, so I combined hero and protagonist. The reader can see a word that they are familiar with and click on the link to see what a protagonist is. (To be honest, I never heard of the word until I encountered a situation exactly like it on the Zelda page and I want to pass it around.) -Eileen- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.142.130.40 (talk) 02:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Fancruft

This line: More recently, this pronunciation was used by the narrator of the History of Final Fantasy featurette (included with Final Fantasy XII Collector's Edition) in the portion covering Final Fantasy X. In Kingdom Hearts II, however, Selphie Tilmitt pronounces his name "Tie-dus," which has led to more confusion amongst fans. Do we really want this line to stay, if fans are confused or not is not relevant to the article and it constitutes fancruft. If no one presents a jutified reason for it to stay I will chop it. -凶 14:33, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that perhaps the "controversy among fans" part should be cut, but the uncertainty of pronunciation is notable and should remain, as there has yet to be a definitive pronunciation. The pronunciation of a character's name is important and is typically given at the beginning of an article, but, unfortunately, without a definite answer from the creators, that wouldn't be possible in this case. Ctu2485 19:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:JAT.ogg

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BetacommandBot 02:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good article reassessment

This article was nominated for good article reassessment to determine whether or not it met the good article criteria and so can be listed as a good article. FightingStreet (talk) 22:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

This article was modified and kept as a good article. Please see the archived discussion for further information. PeterSymonds | talk 20:52, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tidus/Tidu

You don't get it. In Japan, the name is spelled "Tidus" in alphabet (just like in the States), and pronounced "tīda" (according to the kana spelling). So, yes, the final "S" (of the alphabet spelling) is apparently silent (and don't tell me that they don't have silent "S"s in Japanese, because we're not even talking about a classical Japanese name, here, so that's irrelevant... they don't have "ti" sounds either, if you go there). Now, I realize the final "S" is indeed pronounced in the English version of "Kingdom Hearts". It isn't in the Japanese version. Why did they change the pronounciation in the English version? Who knows? You'd have to ask the localization team. Maybe they thought the silent "S" was a bit too weird for English-speaking players? Or maybe they simply didn't know about it in the first place? Considering they weren't even consistent for the pronounciation of the beginning of the name, I wouldn't assume they thought the whole thing through anyway, myself... Anyway, I bought the Ultimania Omega when it was released. same thing for the other Final Fantasy X (and X-2) Ultimania guides. They don't say anything about the name being spelled "Tidu" in alphabet. Because it was never spelled like that. Ever. The alphabet spelling is "Tidus", even in Japan. I wasn't removing information, I was correcting a mistake. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I have my doubts about you actually owning FINAL FANTASY X Ultimania Omega. Because if you check the page I gave as a source, you will see that it's clearly spelled out there: "TIDU (ティーダ)". Also, you won't find any Squaresoft-based Japanese sources containing the name "Tidus" before the North American was released - especially not in conjunction with the Katakana form of the name. In fact, they still avoid making a connection between these two to this day (with Ultimania Omega being just one example). If you find a credible Squaresoft source long before the NA release (before the localization process had begun) that actually claims that his Japanese name was always written Tidus and pronounced with a silent s, I will gladly believe you. I will move this discussion to the talk page for the article Tidus so that other people can participate. Thanks in advance. Prime Blue (talk) 22:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for doubting me, but I do have the book, and I've read it. Are you referring to these pages where they discuss the graffiti found here and there in the game? Because those wouldn't really be the best source for official alpahabet spellings, you know... They're easter eggs, nothing more. Anyway, I really wonder how you managed to miss the spelling "Tidus" on Japanese merchandise... Yes, it was spelled "Tidus" in alphabet and "tīda" in kana well before the American release of the game. They never "avoided" the connection between "Tidus" and "tīda", far from it. I wish I could simply show you the Japanese official PlayOnline site from back then, but it's gone (and the Wayback Machine doesn't archive flash). Still, a quick Google search, and I already have this: http://www.colawp.com/topics/2001/0401_ffx.html (April 2001, months before 'both the Japanese and US releases). And here's the Gamespot article about the opening of the Japanese official site (January 16, 2001): http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/rpg/finalfantasy10/news.html?sid=2674767&mode=all . They call the characters "Tidus" and "Yuna". Why? Check the screenshots. "Tidus CG Model" and "Yuna CG Model". Those were directly taken from the Japanese official site on its opening day. Sorry, but I'm afraid you simply don't know what you're talking about, here... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
More evidence here: http://www.rpgamer.com/news/Q1-2001/011601b.html . They even mention the silent "S" and the fact the alphabet spelling "Tidus" could be found on the Japanese official site. Indeed, prior to the opening of the Japanese site, we had no official alphabet spelling for that name. All we had until then was the kana spelling "tīda", as seen on the menu screen of the first "Final Fantasy X" video ever released to the public, back in early 2000: http://uk.ps2.ign.com/dor/ps2/14008/images/ff10_5.html . 88.161.129.43 (talk) 00:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
That looks like sufficient evidence to me. However, I think the current listing of the name properly conveys it in both English and Japanese. But additional information, like the silent "s", should be included along with the common pronunciations. Does that sound like a happy medium to everyone? (Guyinblack25 talk 14:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC))
I would also like to add that in the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character Book published by Square Enix, in Page 328 and 329, they spelled Tidus' name as "Tidus". Of course the Kana is still "tīda". But there you have it. — Blue。 18:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd be okay with the current form if there were some real pointers to it actually being a silent s.
Regarding the avoidance of showing the name Tidus next to the Katakana form: The original character screenshot site is still archived and only shows "ティーダ" (the 'names of the files'-argument is moot, this isn't like showing the two names next to each other, furthermore, they spell "sphere" as "sphia" and "Kimahri" as "Kimari"), despite the North American name "Tidus" being widely known back then.
The name "Tidus" was unveiled on January 16th, 2001 - in an English press release from Squaresoft that was sent to major American news outlets. Now, that would have been the perfect source (as this was, as has been stated before, half a year prior to the release of FFX), if the Gaming-Age article on it didn't include English quotes from the game. If you check these, you'll recognize that the sentences are uttered in the final English release without much changes (at least not enough changes to ensure that Gaming-Age translated these themselves). This proves that the localization team was already up and running by that time and had already started translating the game as well as the character names and is also undermined by the fact that they claim Tidus was renamed from Tida.
Not to mention Rikku's name - I just don't think you can equate an "i" to "yu" (リュック Ryukku).
Also, please stop making comments that try to make me look like an idiot, this just seems as if you want to argue rather than discuss something. :-) Prime Blue (talk) 20:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, chances are I would have been more pleasant if you hadn't implied I was lying about owning the book... Anyway, I don't know why you're still arguing, here... The PlayOnline site? As official and Japanese as it gets. You asked for an example, and I gave you one (well, two, actually... there was also the flash movie). And no, the "original screenshot" didn't just have "tīda" in kana. It was "Tidus CG Model", just as I've shown you. Your screenshot? Not the same, simple as that. Yours was taken from another version of the site, quite a bit later. An English press release? Not as far as I remember. Besides, you can find the same news on Japanese websites, on the same day. So... Source? The "English quotes"? How can you tell they were translated by Square themselves? Again, source? I, for one, remember reading those in Japanese (on PlayOnline), back then. "Not enough changes to ensure that Gaming-Age translated these themselves"? Er... What's "enough", exactly? I could just as well say that they're "not similar enough" to ensure that they're from the Square localization team... You didn't prove anything, here: you merely stated the possibility that these English quotes originated directly from Square... Then, Bluerfn added that the name was spelled "Tidus" in another Ultimania guide. And I'm not home right now so I can't check, but I wouldn't exactly be shocked if the Japanese instructions manual did the same thing, really... And no, the "names of the files" argument isn't quite as moot as you'd want it to be. "Kimari" and "Sphia" are misspellings indeed, but they're "likely" misspellings for Japanese people, as it's "kimari" and "sufia" in kana. But how the hell would they get "tidus" from "tīda"? Now, that's either one hell of a misspelling and one hell of a coincidence, or... well, you know. As for Rikku's name, I don't know why you'd mention that... Neither "Tidus" nor "Rikku" are "Earth names", so I'm not sure what kind of phonetic system you expect them to conform to... They could be called "Bono" and "Bozo", pronounced "Tom" and "Jerry", and that would be that: Square's prerogative, Square's weird names from some other world, far far away. But while they do choose "weird" spellings quite often (compared to the intended pronunciation, I mean), fortunately, they don't really go that far... And the "ri" being pronounced "ryu" isn't that weird either, actually. If you're familiar with Greek mythology, for example... "Hypnos"? That would be "hyupunos" in kana. "Charybdis"? "Karyubudisu". And so on... But just in case, I'll say it now: the guys at Squaresoft have always spelled her name "Rikku" in alphabet, in official releases. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
By the way, thank you for finding the archives of the HTML version of the Japanese official site, but you apparently "skipped" (?) this page. A big "Tidus" jpeg. On the official Japanese page. But maybe that "doesn't count" either? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I finally got the chance to check my Japanese intructions manual and... well, the names of the main characters are all listed both in alphabet and in kana, and sure enough, it says "TIDUS ティーダ". Between that and the Japanese official site, if Square really are "avoiding the connection" between the two spellings, you could say they're doing an absolutely terrible job at it... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 19:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
By stating that the name was never spelled Tidu and by completely ignoring the page I cited - as you did in your original post - I was led to the impression that you don't have book. Sorry for any inconvenience caused, but as you strongly avoided the issue I was bringing up, I truly thought you don't own it. Also, I'd better split up the post in order to make it easier to read for everyone. :-)
1. You still haven't got the point I was trying to make: The name was not always Tidus, and the source I gave confirms this 100%. See 4.
Sorry, but that source doesn't confirm anything of the sort. That one isolated "TIDU" could just as well be a misspelling, really. Because, once again... When the official alphabet spelling of the name was revealed, it was already "Tidus". When the official site went up, it was still "Tidus". When the game was released, it was still "Tidus" (Japanese instructions booklet). And according to the latest Ultimania, it still is "Tidus". 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
As you said earlier, this would be "one hell of a coincidence". A "wrong spelling" that is a fitting transliteration of the Katakana form in the actual game + picked up later + a pronunciation change for the North American release? I just don't think so. Prime Blue (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Would "Tidu" be a "more fitting" spelling, based on the kana? "More fitting", that's not for me to say, as I didn't create the character. More intuitive to most people, yes, probably. Does that indicate it's not a misspelling though? Not quite. It could very well still be a mere misspelling. One could argue that whoever wrote the name on the door misspelled it "TIDU" simply because he/she was familiar with the kana spelling and didn't know about the silent "S". That would work, too. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
2. You claimed that the s is "apparently silent". And as of now, there were no published sources let alone any good arguments shown to support that claim.
Of course there is: the kana spelling. If the final "S" wasn't silent, it would show (and it would be heard in the Japanese version of "Kingdom Hearts", for example). 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not arguing about the Katakana form, I think that silent "s" in the transliterated Japanese name isn't even there in the first place, it's never been specified as a silent "s" by Squaresoft or Square Enix, so this is your assumption, not fact. Prime Blue (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Again, when the official alphabet spelling of the name was officially revealed, it was "Tidus". Now, you can argue that it wasn't always that way during development, but 1) it's just a theory (and the only possible evidence you have is that inscription on the door), and 2) even if you were right, and it was spelled "Tidu" (or anything else other than "Tidus", really) at some point during development, I'm afraid it simply wouldn't be relevant anyway, here. His official name spelling has always been "Tidus". Unofficially, it might have been something else at some point (heck, it's actually pretty likely, as this kind of name changes happen all the time, during development), but that's another problem, really. We were discussing the official alphabet spelling of the name in Japan, and that's "Tidus". You're arguing that it isn't based on a tiny inscription on a door in-game, and I'm arguing that it is based on the Japanese official site, the Japanese intstructions manual, and the Japanese Ultimania guides. Sorry, but those are pretty good sources, right there. So the official alphabet spelling has a final "S", and there's no "S" sound to be found in the kana spelling. What does that mean? Silent "S". 88.161.129.43 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
3. The pronunciation change argument itself is very far-fetched: The Japanese name was always pronounced Tīda, so why should they change the North American pronunciation if it was always spelled Tidus to begin with? The most official pronunciation of the North American pronunciation of Tidus is probably "Tidas", as James Arnold Taylor uttered it in an interview and there's not really any reason why they should tell him the wrong way to say it.
Of course they changed the pronunciation. In the original Japanese version, it's "tīda", i.e. "tee-dah" (then again, the Japanese "da" might stand for "duh", here). In the US version of "Kingdom Hearts", they pronounce the final "S". That's clearly a change. Was it done on purpose? Heck if I know. But it's there. As for James Arnold Taylor, he thought the narrator of the game was Tidus several years in the future and nobody stopped him from recording his lines with an older voice, so I wouldn't assume he's that well-informed, really... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Exact same issue as in 2. I'm not questioning the change of pronunciation (why would I?), I'm questioning the change of pronunciation in regard to that alleged silent "s" you insist on. Prime Blue (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
4. Let's look at the source I gave: An actual in-game mentioning of the romanized form of ティーダ. You can find it in the Auroch's locker room at the stadium in Luca. For easier reference, I uploaded a picture of that specific scene. What you see here is Tidus opening his very own locker, with his name being written on it in Spira letters. Now this is most definitely written "TIDU", without the alleged silent s you thump so much.
So that's what I thought: you were talking about the "graffiti section"... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not just graffiti, these are the Spira letters found all over the world of FINAL FANTASY X. That's how the people of Spira write. Prime Blue (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
You know what I meant... And in the end, it doesn't matter that much (not as much as what the official site, the instructions manual and the official guides tell us, anyway). They're easter eggs. Heck, after all the trouble Square went through to keep the characters from uttering the main character's name just so the player could change it at will, you have to wonder how much attention went into that tiny door plate that technically ruins everything in that regard. ;þ 88.161.129.43 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
So, as we stand right now, I have an official in-game appearance in Roman letters in addition to an official guide book making a direct connection between the Katakana and the Roman form. Prime Blue (talk) 19:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
The name of the main character was spelled "TIDU" in that one (tiny) place in the game, and the guidebook simply pointed that out with a screenshot. That's just one source, in the end. And a pretty obscure one at that. One has to wonder why you'd focus so much on that one occurrence when the official site, the instructions manual and the Ultimania guides repeatedly spelled the name "Tidus" in far more obvious and relevant fashion. Whoever put that on the door got it wrong, that's all... Congratulations on finding a misspelling of "Tidus", I guess? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
The misspelling claim is definitely a stretch. As claimed above, that'd be "one hell of a coincidence". For the other argument, see below, in response to Guyinblack25. :-) Prime Blue (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
It being a misspelling is admittedly just a theory, but it's certainly not as much of a stretch as you claiming that this, a door plate barely seen in-game, tells us that the official alphabet spelling for Japan is "Tidu", despite "Tidus" being prominently and consistently used on the official site, the instructions manual, and... God, I'm boring myself to tears with this. ^^; 88.161.129.43 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Wow, this is starting to turn into an Aerith/Aeris debate.
Something I don't think that has been stated in any of this is what does each party want the lead to state. There has been plenty of evidence from each side, however, without knowing what each side is aiming for, this discussion is a bit difficult to follow. So if you could both do that, I think it'll be easier to proceed. Does that sound reasonable? (Guyinblack25 talk 19:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC))
Basically, "Tidus (ティーダ Tīda?)" is correct. As for the pronunciation... Well, in the Japanese version, it's obvious: "tee-dah". Why is the final "S" of the alphabet spelling silent? Probably for the same reasons Zell Dincht (Final Fantasy VIII)'s family name is pronounced "din": because Square said so. After all, those are imaginary names from imaginary worlds, so it's their prerogative... As for the Japanese "da" sound, it could also actually stand for an English-sounding "duh": that would give us "tee-duh", which wouldn't be that removed from the "Tidus" spelling (except for the silent "S", once again). In English-speaking countries, however, things weren't that obvious, since the character's name was never pronounced during the game, and alphabet spellings logically aren't as telling as kana (phonetic) spellings. Hence the debates. When the name "Tidus" was (finally) pronounced in a Square game (was it the first or the second "Kingdom Hearts"? I don't remember), I believe it was pronounced "tee-dus" (maybe "tie-dus" sometimes?). So they didn't keep the original pronunciation. Maybe because they simply didn't know about it, maybe because they didn't really care about it and went for something a bit more intuitive for English speakers. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
So you're saying you wouldn't change any of the text that is currently in the article? (Guyinblack25 talk 02:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
I think the very first line is fine as it is. However, the article should probably mention that the "official US pronunciation" (if there is only one... I didn't play the English version of "Kingdom Hearts", but I seem to remember reading somewhere that they weren't quite consistent in that regard *sigh*) differs from the original Japanese one, according to which the final "S" is actually silent. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 03:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
You are correct, the English version of Kingdom Hearts calls him Tidus with an "s".
And how do you want the phrasing to be Prime? (Guyinblack25 talk 14:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
I can see how that might a bit confusing for non-participants, so I'll gladly sum up the discussion. :-)
I'd be glad if we could keep it as "Tidus, known as Tidu (ティーダ Tīda?) in the Japanese version,[1]". I gave an officially sanctioned source which picked up a spelling that even appeared in the game (see above).
The argument of 88.161.129.43 is based on his assumption that the "s" in Tidus is silent and that Squaresoft and Square Enix use the name Tidus even in Japanese published materials and pages. So far, no good explanation, let alone an officially published source, has been given for the alleged silent "s". Furthermore, Square Enix has a tendency of showing the North American names in Japanese materials and pages, as can be seen in Mog's profile on the official FINAL FANTASY VI ADVANCE website. They show the North American name of the race, "Moogle", although the Japanese name "モーグリ" (Mōguri) is on the same page. But that doesn't make "Moogle" the official transliterated spelling of "モーグリ".
If we hadn't got such a substantiated source, I wouldn't insist on including the spelling in the article (after all, Auron and Rikku's names also seem to have been changed, but there's no possibility and also no need to change it there because we don't have a transliteration anywhere).
That should sum it up quite nicely. :-) Prime Blue (talk) 16:54, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
My argument that the official alphabet spelling of that name in Japan is "Tidus" (just as in the States) isn't at all based on "my assumption that the "S" in Tidus in silent". It's simply based on the Japanese official site, the Japanese instructions manual, the Ultimania guides, etc. They all spell the name "Tidus". The thing about the silent "S" is just a (logical) observation based on that fact, not the other way around. And yes, sometimes, Square does use North American names in Japanese materials. It happens, indeed. Like you said, they use "Moogle" on that site, whereas they were using "Moghlie" (or was it "Moglie"? it's been a while) back during the promotion of Final Fantasy VII. Here, however, we never had another official alphabet spelling for the name before the "Tidus" name reveal back in January 2001, and "Tidus" has been consistently and prominently used on Japanese material ever since. Was the US localization team responsible for that spelling? Maybe, maybe not. You appear to be convinced it is, whereas I'm doubtful (do you think they're also the ones who came up with "Auron", then? not exactly an intuitive alphabet spelling for English speakers, considering the kana spelling tells us the name is basically supposed to be pronounced "Aaron"...). In the end, it doesn't matter either way, as the fact remains that it's the only official alphabet spelling there ever was in Japan. Your "TIDU" door plate could be a hint at a former name spelling abandoned in development, but that would be it, sorry. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arbitrary section break

Ok, there appears to be conflicting information from reliable sources. The Final Fantasy X Ultimania Ω and RPGamer article suggest that this "s" was originally not meant to be there and was maybe added in localization. However, the Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 1: Character Book and Cola article suggest the official romanized name is Tidus.

Given that the RPGamer and Cola articles are third-party sources, I'm tempted to go with what they say. But ignoring official names would be foolish. It seems that the only place that Tidu has ever appeared is in the game on his locker, and in the FFX Ultimania Ω. The other thing is that Tidu is from an almost non-recognizable, in-game graphic found in only one location, and is a translation of a fictional alphabet based on the English alphabet created by a Japanese staff. Also, given that practically every other Japanese source uses Tidus, it seem that Tidu is not widely used and should not be mentioned as his Japanese equivalent as it would be confusing to a general reader.

I suggest keeping it as Tidus (ティーダ, Tīda) in the first sentence, as that gives the official English name along with the official Japanese name. Mentioning Tidu could confuse readers. I think it should be mentioned somewhere in the article. Perhaps the next sentence or after the pronunciation. I have no idea how it should be worded though. Does that seem reasonable to the both of you? (Guyinblack25 talk 17:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC))

I don't have a problem with the "TIDU" door plate being mentioned somewhere in the article, as long as it's not used as "evidence" that "Tidu" is the official alphabet spelling of the name in Japan. I'm not sure what could be said about that door plate though... Misspelling or hint at a previous name spelling abandoned during development? I don't think we can tell for sure either way... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 18:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Aside from mentioning it appears in the game as Tidu, everything else is technically original research. Let's see what Prime thinks about the suggestion. (Guyinblack25 talk 19:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
I'm okay with only a mentioning in the article, either at the end of the first paragraph or in the character design section - the only passages where it'd be fitting. Here it is:
"Tidus' name plate on one of the Auroch's lockers at the stadium in Luca shows the phrase "Tidu" written in Spira letters, an artificial script based on the Latin alphabet and conceived by Squaresoft. Referencing this scene, Ultimania Ω hints at the transliteration of Tidus' name written in katakana being Tidu (ティーダ?).[2]"
100% factual and no original research included. :-) Hope that seals the deal! ^_^ Prime Blue (talk) 20:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
That's pretty good, though "hints" is a weasel word that implies original research. Without looking at the original source material, I don't know what to offer as an alternative. Does it explicitly state "hints at the transliteration"? (Guyinblack25 talk 21:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
I wrote "hints" as I didn't want to use strong words like "confirms", in order not to break the conditions of 88.161.129.43. Also, I posted the source material a few paragraphs above, but you can also see it here (Ultimania Ω), here (in-game) and here (just the plate). Feel free to replace the "hints" with something more appropriate. Prime Blue (talk) 21:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
How about: "The Final Fantasy X Ultimania Ω depicts the transliteration of Tidus' name as Tidu in a screen shot of his name plate on an Auroch locker at the Luca stadium. The name plate displays 'Tidu' written in Spira letters, an artificial script based on the Latin alphabet and conceived by Squaresoft." (Guyinblack25 talk 16:47, April 9, 2008 (UTC))
I'm not sure it's necessary to mention the guide, here, is it? After all, we're talking about something that's in the game itself in the first place. We could just say something like "Tidus's name (or "the name of the main character", in order to avoid the "Tidus'" / "Tidus's" question? ^_^; ) is spelled as 'Tidu' (written in Spira (Spiran?) letters, a script based on the Latin alphabet and conceived by Square) on his locker at the Luca Stadium." 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:56, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
(un-indent) That sounds fine. How's this: "Final Fantasy X depicts the transliteration of Tidus' name as Tidu on his locker's name plate at the Luca stadium. The name plate displays 'Tidu' written in Spira letters, an artificial script based on the Latin alphabet created by Squaresoft." (Guyinblack25 talk 22:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
It's fine, but I'm not entirely sure about the "transliteration" bit, here... That may be because English isn't my first language, but it sounds a bit... I don't know, "vague"? What does "the transliteration of Tidus' name" mean, exactly? "Transliteration" implies (at least) two different writing systems, and the sentence doesn't elaborate on that... Which is why I'd probably go with a simple "spelled as "Tidu" on the locker door". It just seems... well, adequate, simple and to the point. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
How about this: "Final Fantasy X depicts the transliteration of Tidus' Japanese name as Tidu on his..." (Guyinblack25 talk 23:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC))
But what's the "Japanese name"? "Does Tidus have two different names?" is a question that might pop in the readers' head. Sorry if I'm nitpicking, but it looks like a lot of people get easily confused when it comes to terms such as "Japanese names"... Sometimes that refers to the actual kana spelling, sometimes to the Hepburn romanization, sometimes to the official alphabet spelling used in Japan... Again, I think it would be for the best if we kept that as simple as possible. The name of the main character can be seen spelled as "Tidu" on his locker in-game, despite being spelled as "Tidus" the rest of the time (both in Japan and in the States). Maybe we should make it clear that we're talking about Roman alphabet spellings in both cases (well... a Roman alphabet-based Spiran alphabet for the former...), but I don't think we need to be more specific than that. In fact, considering we don't really know for sure why it's spelled as "Tidu" there, we probably shouldn't try and be too specific, in my opinion... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
With the English and Japanese names established in the first sentence, it shouldn't be too big of a problem. It can also state, "Final Fantasy X depicts the transliteration of Tidus' Japanese name (ティーダ, Tīda) as Tidu on his..." (Guyinblack25 talk 01:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC))
If by "Japanese name", you mean "kana spelling", yes. But like I said, "Japanese name" could mean many things... And by saying the door spells the transliteration of ティーダ as "Tidu", you're not necessarily saying it's a proper transliteration (which is a good thing, as "Tidu" could be a simple misspelling, for all we know), but you're assuming the character was already named "ティーダ" in Japanese when that door plate was designed... which is admittedly likely but not absolutely certain. Which is why I would be in favor of a simple "spelled as 'Tidu' on the door plate" without any reference to the Japanese name/kana spelling: that would be a simple and accurate description without any assumption. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 01:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The initial scenarios Nojima gave Nomura to create the character designs had the character names included, so yes, his name was ティーダ before the door was ever made. Stating "spelled" sounds like a safe wording though. Let's see what Prime thinks about it. (Guyinblack25 talk 02:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC))
Good point, I had forgotten about that... I still think we should keep things as simple and safely worded as possible though... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I still think that the original wording captured the whole issue pretty well, it's factual and not confusing. I've thought before that 88.161.129.43 will have a problem with saying "Tidus' Japanese name", that's why I used "written in katakana" in the first place. It was already very compromising to put it somewhere in the article, not to mention the liberal wording. How about that:
"Tidus' name plate on one of the Auroch's lockers at the stadium in Luca shows the phrase "Tidu" written in Spira letters, an artificial script based on the Latin alphabet and conceived by Squaresoft. Referencing this scene, Ultimania Ω depicts the transliteration of Tidus' name written in katakana as Tidu (ティーダ?).[3]"
Sorry, but it's not "very compromising" considering the overwhelming evidence that the official alphabet spelling for Japan has always been "Tidus". And again, you're misinterpreting the guide, here. They're simply pointing out the fact that the plate name says "Tidu" and "translating" that in kana for the readers (just like they do for "ITEM" on the same scan). They're not saying that "ティーダ" -> "Tidu": it's the other way around, here. Let's not put words in their collective mouth... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Ultimania Ω should be mentioned - after all, the whole paragraph is useless without it. Yes, I know that you strongly object to the inclusion of the phrase "transliteration", 88.161.129.43, but please consider how much compromises I've already offered here, now it's your turn. Prime Blue (talk) 04:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Mentioning the guide is entirely superfluous, considering the source is the game itself, here. The only detail the guide provides/confirms is the connection "Tidu" / name of the main character (which was obvious anyway). As for me objecting to the term "transliteration", that's simply for the reason mentioned above: to keep the sentence as simple as possible. If you go and use "transliteration", you also have to mention the kana spelling "ティーダ" at some point, which is superfluous to begin with since we already know we're talking about the name of the main character, here. Wikipedia readers aren't necessarily familiar with the Japanese language, so why complicate matters when there's no need to? Finally, sorry, but I don't think one is supposed to make compromises simply on principle alone... Really, I think that's a lot of fuss for something that's barely visible in-game and could be nothing more than a staff member having a little bit of fun. Again, let's not forget Square went trough the trouble of keeping the other characters from uttering Tidus's name just so the player could change it at will at the beginning of the game... The name "Tidu" being written on his locker door technically ruins all that, so I wouldn't assume a lot of attention went into that door plate, really... 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I also don’t see a problem since the English and Japanese names were established in the first sentence. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 06:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Again, I'm just concerned about the clarity of the sentence, here. "Japanese name" can be pretty ambiguous, as it could refer to the kanji/kana spelling (ティーダ), a Hepburn romanization of the kanji/kana spelling (tīda), or the official alphabet spelling used in Japan (Tidus)... So why go through all that trouble by saying that "his Japanese name is spelled "Tidu" in alphabet on the door" (possibly ambiguous) or "ティーダ is spelled "Tidu" in alphabet on the door" (unclear for readers who aren't familiar with the Japanese language) when we could simply say "his name is spelled "Tidu" in alphabet on the door"? It amounts to the same thing, in the end, doesn't it? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 07:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Technically, the kanji/kana spelling and Hepburn romanization amount to the same thing to a general reader; they are the same word spelled with different language scripts. And "Tidus" is established as the English language version of the name in the introduction. Though your concerns have merit, I believe the amount of readers that may get confused is a small minority.
As far as mentioning the guide, being used as the source is enough. Since the guide depicts a screenshot of the game, it is best to mention the appearance in the game. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:32, 10 April 2008 (UTC))
Er... I'll just pretend I'm not pissing any of you off with my constant nitpicking already (I'm so sorry! ^^;; ), and explain why I'm still a bit concerned about the clarity of the sentence you're proposing...
Like you said, the kanji/kana spelling and the Hepburn romanization pretty much amount to the same thing, indeed (I'm not sure that's obvious for every Wikipedia reader out there, but, well, yeah ^_^; ). And "Tidus" is indeed established as the English version of the name at the beginning of the article. But if you're referring to "the Japanese name of Tidus", will readers immediately understand that you're referring to the kanji/kana spelling (or Hepburn romanization)? Sometimes, the alphabet spelling of a character's name will change from one version to another, and the Japanese version might be called "the Japanese name" (a Final Fantasy-related example could be "Salamander Coral", which became "Amarant Coral" in the US version... and a less radical one would be "Barett Wallace", which became "Barret Wallace" in the States). I think there's a risk some readers will understand that whereas "Tidus" is the US alphabet spelling of the name, there is actually another alphabet spelling (not a systematical romanization) being used in Japan.
One of the main reasons I think there's such a risk is the confusion that surroundered the name of the main character for a whole year. Like I mentioned earlier, when the game was first shown, all we had was the kana spelling of his name (i.e. ティーダ / tīda), and we didn't get an official alphabet spelling ("Tidus") from Square until the following year. So during that time, all kinds of tentative spellings ("guess work", to be blunt) based on the kana spelling were used on gaming sites and forums. "Tida" was (logically enough) quite popular, if memory serves (heck, I just tried typing "Tida" and it redirects to the "Tidus" article! ^_^; ). So I could very well imagine a reader remembering that "Tida", confusing it with what you would actually mean by "Japanese name", i.e. the Hepburn romanization "tīda" (the fact some people argue that ""ti" can't be correct as there's no "ti" sound in Japanese!" wouldn't help, here), and assuming the alphabet spelling of the name was changed from "Tida" in Japan to "Tidus" in the States... Which would be... well, off.
Of course, if you're familiar with the nihongo template, know a bit about the Japanese language and realize what "transliteration" implies here, given the context (i.e. if "Tidu" is written in alphabet (... or close enough) and is said to be a transliteration, it has to be a transliteration from kanji/kana), it won't be a problem. Otherwise... I'm afraid there might be some confusion.
Now, maybe I'm being waaaay too cautious, here, indeed, but I just took a look at the state of affairs concerning the Aerith/Aeris debate (since you had mentioned it in passing earlier), and I was a bit disheartened to see that the name origin that was (apparently?) agreed upon was that "Earisu" (the kana spelling) was actually a "non-standard Japanese transliteration of the English word "Earth"". What. The. Hell. The only Japanese transliteration I can think of for "Earth" would be "āsu", so yeah, that one would be quite "non-standard", indeed! They were talking about the alphabet spelling. The alphabet spelling "Aerith" is based on the English word "Earth" (it's almost an anagram). This has been on the "Aerith" article for quite a while, from what I can tell... And two years ago, it was even worse, as it was saying that ""Aerith" —and, consequently, "Aeris"— is a Japanese transliteration of the English word "Earth"". "Aerith" doesn't quite look like it could be Hepburn or anything like that, but hey! ^_^;; And that version stayed long enough, too... I'd just like to avoid another unfortunate misunderstanding. ^^; 88.161.129.43 (talk) 16:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
88.161.129.43: Haven't we been beyond proving "who's right and who's wrong" now? I thought consensus has been reached that both sides have good arguments and we're not discussing that issue (you: "the Japanese name has always been Tidus" or me: "the Japanese name is different and transliterated as Tidu") anymore as seemingly, it's a dead end (it doesn't seem like any of the two parties will change their POVs). Right now, I think that the whole issue is really just a matter of personal preference that the individual readers have to make up for themselves and we achieve that by giving them hard facts and by not leaving out information.
I'm convinced of the opposite regarding the paragraph: Just mentioning the in-game spelling Tidu without the transliteration connection made by the Ultimania Ω (which could look something like "Tidus name is spelled Tidu on his locker in the Auroch's room at Luca stadium." in the article) would be extremely confusing to readers (they might think "why did they mention that?") and implies that it's a misspelling (which would be biased). The version of the paragraph I posted doesn't confirm the transliteration as fact, nor does it confirm a misspelling - readers can make up their own minds about the issue. Also, there seems to be a misunderstanding: I don't want the paragraph to say "Tidus' Japanese name" (as that implies that the names are indeed different and hence would be biased), but "Tidus' name written in katakana being Tidu (ティーダ?)". If you think that alone might be too confusing for readers without any knowledge of the Japanese language/writing system altogether, we can also extend it to Tidu (ティーダ Tīda?), thus including the Hepburn romanization. So I suggest the following paragraph as a liberal compromise for both parties, due to the above mentioned reasons:
"Tidus' name plate on one of the Auroch's lockers at the stadium in Luca shows the phrase "Tidu" written in Spira letters, an artificial script based on the Latin alphabet and conceived by Squaresoft. Referencing this scene, Ultimania Ω depicts the transliteration of Tidus' name written in katakana as Tidu (ティーダ Tīda?).[4]"
Prime Blue (talk) 16:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but no, I still don't think your arguments are any good. Pointing out the fact that Square (Japan) sometimes "forget" their own official alphabet spellings and suddenly start using the US ones (your "Moogle" example, indeed, or "Zack Fair", more recently) would have been relevant if they had officially used a spelling other than "Tidus" at some point. But that's not the case, as it was "Tidus" from day one (the day of the official reveal of the two main characters, back in January 2001), and that didn't change since then. You can't honestly argue that one tiny "Tidu" door plate that probably shoudn't even be there in the first place (as Square sure did their best not to mention the main character's name in-game) trumps the evidence in favor of "Tidus". Please keep the context in mind in both cases, and it should be obvious.
But it looks like you simply can't accept that spelling for the Japan version. Remember when you said "you won't find any Squaresoft-based Japanese sources containing the name "Tidus" before the North American was released - especially not in conjunction with the Katakana form of the name"? Didn't I do just that? Several times? Weren't my examples (the character sections of the official site and the instructions manual) somewhat solid? And yet, you're not convinced. Why? Is a silent "S" really that unthinkable? Why assume these names should conform to English phonetics (or any real world phonetics, for that matter, technically)? Don't we already have many other names in these games that have rather unintuitive/weird official alphabet spellings, compared to the kana? I already mentioned "Zell Dincht", pronounced "zell din", right? And in the same game, the name "Loire" is also... oddly pronounced.
You said that we should mention the "transliteration connection made by the guide". But all the guide does is put Japanese translations/equivalents of the "alphabet" words found in the game in parenthesis. Here, "Tidu" is obviously meant to designate the main character (the name looks familiar, and, well, it's his locker, after all), so of course, they put the main character's name in kana inside the brackets. If anything, your argument is that they didn't go out of their way to point out that "Tidu" isn't the alphabet spelling commonly used for the character's name, so "that must mean" that it's the proper spelling. Sorry, but that's a bit weak, especially considering the Ultimania guides always use the spelling "Tidus" in their character sections.
something like "Tidus name is spelled Tidu on his locker in the Auroch's room at Luca stadium." in the article) would be extremely confusing to readers (they might think "why did they mention that?") Why indeed... I don't think it's really noteworthy, myself...
and implies that it's a misspelling (which would be biased). I don't think it implies anything. But yeah, if the name is spelled "Tidus" everywhere else and "Tidu" there, some people might come to the conclusion that it's a misspelling. I sure wouldn't blame them. Some other people might also think it's another spelling that was considered at some point during production, which is indeed a possibility. If you have a problem with that, I guess that means you'd want the article to evoke a third possibility: that this one "Tidu" is actually the proper spelling, and all the "Tidus" that could be found (and can still be found) on official Japanese materials are wrong. And I just can't agree with that, sorry. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, this really needs to stop. The discussion has basically digressed to what it began as. Why don't you both provide an example sentence, again. No explanations for now—for the sake of brevity—and let's work from there. I'd really rather not involve the backlogged third opinion, request for comments, or dispute resolution venues for something that as small as this that we should be able to work out. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:35, 10 April 2008 (UTC))

"Tidus' name plate on one of the Auroch's lockers at the stadium in Luca shows the phrase "Tidu" written in Spira letters, an artificial script based on the Latin alphabet and conceived by Squaresoft. Referencing this scene, Ultimania Ω depicts the transliteration of Tidus' name written in katakana as Tidu (ティーダ Tīda?).[5]" Prime Blue (talk) 20:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Come on, that's not what the guide does, in that section... That's like saying that this section of the guide is telling readers that "アイテム" is transliterated as "ITEM". They're just pointing out alphabet words in the game and then translating them in Japanese for the readers. It's the other way around, basically. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, I don't even think this bit about the locker is really noteworthy. Things like that happen quite often in video games and are generally (and often improperly) called "Engrish" and forgotten... But if you want to mention it, I would go with something like "the character's name is spelled as "Tidu" (in Spira letters, an artificial script based on the Latin alphabet and conceived by Square) on his locker at the Luca stadium." Of course, my English skills being what they are, feel free to fix any issue. ^^;
I'd use "the character's" over "Tidus'" or "Tidus's", just to circumvent the whole "final S" issue altogether. I'd probably use "Square" rather than "Squaresoft", as that's (well, that was) the name of the Japanese section (I believe?), but this is all pretty trivial, I guess.
As for where such a note would fit in the article, I really don't know. I think putting it somewhere next to the whole "what's his name and how is it pronounced?" bit would imply some kind of relevance, and I'd like to avoid that (since we don't know for sure why it's spelled like that, here). So maybe we could actually mention that while saying that the name is never pronounced during the game so that the player could change it at the beginning of the game? "His name is never mentioned by the other characters but it can actually be found there"? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 20:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Not that you have a proof for that assumption about the transliteration order in Ultimania Ω, but I've rephrased the paragraph to exclude that point you had a problem with:
"Tidus' name plate on one of the Auroch's lockers at the stadium in Luca shows the phrase Tidu written in Spira letters, an artificial script based on the Latin alphabet and conceived by Squaresoft. Referencing this scene, Ultimania Ω mentions that spelling in connection with Tidus' name written in katakana (ティーダ Tīda?).[6]" Prime Blue (talk) 21:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't need to provide "proof", you need to actually read that section of the guide and realize what it is and what it does. It's not about transliterations from kana to alphabet. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Those are somewhat longer responses I was hoping for. Regardless, it shows that this issue will probably stay divided. Given that some of this is bordering on original research/synthesis, I think stripping it down to the bare bone information would be the easiest and best compromise. What we know is that the word "Tidu" appears in the game in the Spira script. Everything else has been argued beyond what it needs to be. I suggest adding the info in the creation section as:
"Tidus is never directly referred to by name during audible dialogue—due to the player having the option to change his default name. The only in-game appearance of his name is on a name plate on an Auroch locker in the Luca stadium as "Tidu" in the fictional script used in Spira. Because his name never pronounced, the pronunciation of his name among fans is sometimes unclear."
I hope that is satisfactory to both parties as this discussion has gone on for far too long given the subject matter. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC))
I think that's quite satisfactory, thank you. Maybe just one detail: the pronunciation of his name among Japanese fans wasn't unclear (due to the phonetic nature of kana spellings). And the same could probably be said for some other countries... Then again, one could argue you somewhat covered that one with the "sometimes", in a way. ^_^; 88.161.129.43 (talk) 21:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I see no need to stipulate the region of fans. Fans in either Japan, North America, or Europe are still fans. And as you've stated, that is covered by the word "sometimes". (Guyinblack25 talk 21:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC))
That's good. Maybe a small rephrasing to make some sections sound less awkward, plus the reference:
"Due to the player having the option to change his default name, Tidus is never directly referred to by name during audible dialogue. The only in-game appearance of his name is on a name plate on an Auroch locker in the Luca stadium as "Tidu", written in the fictional script used in Spira.[7] Because his name is never spoken out loud, the pronunciation of his name among fans is sometimes unclear." Prime Blue (talk) 22:00, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I will probably kick myself for asking this, but any objections? (Guyinblack25 talk 22:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC))
'Seems fine to me, don't worry. I just don't see any need for the Ultimania Ω mention, here, since we're talking about something that's in the game. 88.161.129.43 (talk) 22:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, "phew". Still, aside from the Ultimania Omega reference that bothers me a little (we could reference the guide for the fictional script though, as that's something that's explained in the guide... but that would be on page 238, not 243), I think we may have a problem (or a couple of them) with the rest of the paragraph:
"Because his name is never spoken out loud, the pronunciation of his name among fans is sometimes unclear. His name as featured in Final Fantasy X is pronounced "Tee-dus", due to Wakka's accent. This was confirmed in dialogue from Kingdom Hearts—which featured the character in a cameo—and by interviews with James Arnold Taylor, Tidus' English voice actor."
One sentence says that the name is never spoken out-loud during the game, and the next seems to tell us otherwise (and I have absolutely no idea as to why Wakka's accent is mentioned, here). How about this (or something like this, if my English skills fail me):
"Because his name is never spoken out loud, its intended pronunciation is sometimes a subject of debate among fans, but according to interviews with James Arnold Taylor, Tidus' English voice actor (ref goes here), and spoken dialogue from the English version of Kingdom Hearts—which featured the character in a cameo—, it would be "tee-dus"."
Maybe too long a sentence? I specified we were talking about the English version of Kingdom Hearts, as the Japanese version would tell another story (maybe we should mention the Japanese pronunciation, at that point, actually?)...
But like I said earlier, I remember reading somewhere that both "tee-dus" and "tie-dus" could be heard, in that game? Any truth to this? And if that's indeed correct, could that explain the mention about "Wakka's accent"? An attempt to rationalize the inconsistency (i.e. original research, unless Square themselves said something about that)? 88.161.129.43 (talk) 23:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed that Wakka sentence and wasn't sure what to make of it, but couldn't verify it at the time. Your proposed wording sounds fine. I remember hearing "teedus" in Kingdom Hearts, and "tiedus" in Kingdom Hearts II. But between the first KH and the James Taylor interview it should be fine. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC))

[edit] Wikiproject Video Game assessment

A request was placed for the article to be assessed with a view to upgrading it to A-class. I've looked at the article hoping to support this, but can't do so until the last remaining unreferenced paragraphs are dealt with. Suggestions:

  • The last paragraph of Appearances > Final Fantasy X is completely unreferenced.
  • Ditto Appearances > Final Fantasy X-2. It's those two which are the reasons I didn't sign up for A class.
  • "and spoken dialogue from the English version of Kingdom Hearts—which featured the character in a cameo—portray it as "tee-dus" (IPA: /tiːdəs/) whereas one instance in the English version of Kingdom Hearts 2 exists in which the character's name is uttered "tie-dus" (IPA: /taɪdəs/)." unreferenced.
  • "Because his name is never spoken out loud in Final Fantasy X, its intended pronunciation has been a subject of debate among fans." could use a citation, anything relating to fiction can be discussed to death by fans, but it doesn't necessarily make it a big issue in the encyclopedia's terms.
  • Image:Tidus art.jpg has no fair use rationale, ditto Tidus_Kingdom_Hearts.jpg.
  • Greg Kasavin has his own article, but is not linked in the reference (ref 19).

That's it, if you can find some references for those two paragraphs (they could already be used within the games' articles, or obtained from strategy guides) then I'd support A-class. Please re-submit to assessment when they're nailed down, and consider peer review. Thanks for building the article up to such a high standard. Someoneanother 07:56, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try to address this later today. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC))