User talk:Tibetologist

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Hello, Tibetologist, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Wikipedia:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  -- Longhair\talk 08:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


Hello Tibetologist! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and stick around. If you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking Image:Wikisigbutton.png or using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. Below are some useful links. Happy editing! Mgm|(talk) 09:53, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Rolf A. Stein

Hi there
I don't know how long you've been around Wikipedia, so here's some tips for this article.

  1. It needs wikification. - Mgm|(talk) 09:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
  2. It doesn't really explain what makes him notable. You claim he's a great tibetologist, but you don't say what exactly he did.
  3. "perhaps the greatest Tibetologist of all time" is a phrase that violates WP:NPOV.
  4. Did you use the obituary to get information to write the article? If so, it should be in a references section, instead of the external links.

All in all a pretty good start, it just needs some polishing. Let me know if you need help with anything. I'll post a larger welcome message above with some more helpful links. - Mgm|(talk) 09:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

  • I rarely visit the Dutch Wikipedia. Just occasionally for translations. Once Thor Salden survives the deletion discussion, I might do a translation for the Dutch Wikipedia. Last time it was written there, he was deleted as not notable, but now it would be against policy to do so IMO. - Mgm|(talk) 10:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sambhota

Thank you for the history of that! rudy 17:04, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Songtsen Gampo

Just curious why you removed sourced information on the Songtsen Gampo page? That's not really a good Wikipedia practice... rudy 17:28, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Standard/Lhasa/Central

Thanks for your information on this subject. Unfortunately, I don't have access to complete articles on JSTOR. The thing that confuses me is that R. A. Miller in one section of an article[1] writes, "Perhaps the most striking isogloss separating the Central Tibetan koiné from the genuine Lhasa Tibetan is the correspondence of retroflex stops [ṭ, ṭ', ḍ] in the former with with retroflex affricates in the latter." (I assume that [ṭ, ṭ', ḍ] means [ ʈ ], [ ʈʰ ], and [ ɖ ] in IPA). Tournadre describes "Standard Tibetan" as having retroflex affricates [ ʈʂ ] and [ ʈʂʰ ]. Therefore, this apparently means that what Tournadre is describing is what Miller calls "Lhasa Tibetan", and that Miller believes it is not the lingua franca of Central Tibet.

"It would be nice though if someone wroe a book that just went through the whole literature and straightened it all out." Well, I guess you have your work cut out for you! Cheers, Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 23:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I double checked, and I was mistaken. Tournadre does describe his Standard Tibetan as having aspirated stops [ ʈ ] and [ ʈʰ ], although he does say that they are "slightly affricate". It is actually the Chinese government's Tibetan Pinyin system (which is usually identical to Tournadre's phonology) which lists affricates instead of stops.
I would be grateful to read anything you could send me. I haven't had anything interesting to read lately. I'm mostly interested in Tibetan phonology and dialect variation. You can contact me at Special:Emailuser/Nat_Krause or nathanielkrause@hotmail.com (I don't mind giving that e-mail out in public—I almost never use it and it already gets tons of spam). Cheers, Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 21:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Songsten Gampo

I noticed you have removed a lot of material (including a photo) from this page and given as your (unsourced) reasons that you believe that it is largely legendary and of "late medieval origins" and not "historical." When I wrote those notes I thought I had added quite a number of qualifiers to show where uncertainty existed. I will now rewrite them with even more qualifiers, but I must point out that your comments seem to have little or no real evidence to back them.

It should be noted that quite a number of early Tibetan traditions which were previously dismissed as later legends (for example, the famous religious debates in the late 8th century) have been, in fact, confirmed by archaeological finds from Dunhuang and elsewhere. Should this not give you some pause for dismissing such Tibetan traditions? Sure, they should be appropriately qualified - but not, I think, dismissed out of hand, unless you have really strong evidence to show they are untrue.

Please contact me if you have any queries - perhaps together we can make this a better, more accurate article. John Hill 11:00, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More on Songtsen Gampo

Many thanks for your encouraging remarks on my Talk page about the Songtsen (Songtsän) Gampo article. I still think it needs quite a lot of work and will, when I can spare the time, try to tidy it up.

Songtsen Gampo is certainly one of the most important figures in Tibetan history and, indeed, is a key figure in Asian history, so it would be a wonderful achievement if we could turn this into a really informative and first-class article. Perhaps together (and hopefully with the help of others) we can achieve this? My main problem is lack of time as I am well behind editing a book of mine for publication. Also, it has been many years since I made a study of this period and I am out of date and my notes are scattered and, most unfortunately, I don’t read Tibetan.

I agree with you about the limitations of the Yeshe de project but I was unable find my copy of the Old Tibetan Chronicle MS, translated by Jacques Bacot, et al., Documents de Touen-houang relatifs à l’histoire de Tibet. Imprimerie Nationale, Paris. 1940-46, (which is probably stored in a box here somewhere) and had to finish off what I was doing in a hurry. I, unfortunately, don’t have access to Hugh Richardson’s work (and am at least 2,500 km from the nearest library which might contain it - possibly one in Sydney or Canberra has a copy). I think you are probably the person who has added references to the OTA in the text of the article. If so, would you possibly be able to insert the references so they show up in the reference section, please? Also, if you have access to a scanner, would there be any chance of you sending me a copy??? I would be most happy to pay you for it. My email address is: wynhill@bigpond.com .

As to my references to, and quotes from, the Tangshu: I agree that Pelliot’s translation is likely more accurate and trustworthy than Bushell’s in general (after all, Pelliot is often referred to as the greatest Western sinologist ever, and was an unusually brilliant and very diligent scholar), plus he had Bushell’s translation as a guide and access to more than 80 extra years of research. However, the passages I quoted from Bushell differ very little from Pelliot’s version (I have his translations here too) and have the important advantage for our readers of being in readable English. I also have another translation in English: The History of Early Relations between China and Tibet from the Chiu t’ang-shu, a documentary survey, by Don Y. Lee. Eastern Press. Bloomington, Indiana. 1981, but it is a bit “clunky” to read and I have some questions about the accuracy of certain passages, and I don’t have the Chinese text here to check them.

Finally, I would appreciate your advice on how we can obtain a consistent approach to the transliteration of Tibetan names. I am certainly no expert in this area and, like most laypeople, find the plethora of systems most difficult to follow. It would be useful if we could avoid diacritics as far as possible (especially as this makes it difficult to search for names in the Wikipedia) and also try to make sure we are consistent with those used in other articles on Tibetan history. I notice the heading of the article has “Songtsen Gampo” whereas you tend to use “Songtsän Gampo” – which is possibly more correct technically. I wonder if you would have a think about this problem and, if you can, make some suggestions on how best to handle it?

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I am hoping we can work together to make this a really excellent article. Thank you in advance for any help you may be able to give. Sincerely, John Hill 23:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Once more on Songtsän Gampo

Hi again! Glad to see you have taken an interest so quickly in the editing I did today. I take your point about the uncertainty about Songtsän Gampo's age when he took the throne and have rewritten the two sections - please have a look at the revised versions and tell me what you think.

I am sorry to have to disagree with you, but as regards to Nepal - I don't think there can be much doubt as the Tang histories refer to it many times as 泥婆羅 Nipoluo and place it usually to the south of Tibet (and once to the west). Bushell in his note 31 on pages 529-530, translates a general passage on the country from the Tangshu (which repeats the story about the young king taking refuge in Tibet and being placed on the throne by the Tibetans and, thus, being "subject" to them). If you wish, I could scan this passage in and email it to you. In any case, I have rewritten this passage in the article with more references added.

Do have a look at it please and tell me if you still object.

PS. Do you feel brave enough to move the article so it is headed by Songtsän Gampo or, better yet, under Wylie's transcription (with, of course, adding proper redirects)? I feel you are more qualified than me to talk about the various transcription systems - though I would be happy to back you up if there is any further flack. Cheers and best wishes, John Hill 11:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply to your note on my Talk page

Hi!

Thank you for your follow-up note. It has led me to check matters further in my collection of books on Tibet and related subjects and, I think it has, fairly convincingly resolved (that is - unless you can find substantial counter-arguments somewhere)this whole matter of Nipoluo = Nepal(?) and even has led to pretty well-established dates for the king the Tibetans are said to have put on the throne of Nipoluo.

First, I should say that I have been "quietly confident" all along that the "Nepalese" king mentioned in the Tangshu who was placed on his throne by the Tibetans, and is called, “Naling deva” in Bushell’s translation, was actually Narendradeva, a king of the Licchavi dynasty which ruled mainly in the Kathmandu valley and surrounds for hundreds of years. Now, the dating of Narendradeva’s reign has been fairly firmly fixed at circa 643- circa 679 from a series of inscriptions - and, as far as I know, there has been no serious questioning of these dates.

The fullest account that I have found of it all so far is in David Snellgrove’s Indo-Tibetan Buddhism: Indian Buddhists & Their Tibetan Successors, 2 Vols., Shambhala, Boston, 1987, Vol. II, pp. 369-372. (If you wish, I can scan and email these pages to you). Snellgrove also contains an English version of Lèvi’s French translation of the same passage on Nipoluo that I had previously quoted from Bushell, and he identifies the Nipoluo king as Narendradeva.

Gedun Choephel in The White Annals, Library of Tibetan Works & Archives, 1977, pp. 63-65, transcribes his name from ‘Scroll Ka’ as “Nariba” and his father as “Yusna Kug-te” and he discusses the relationship of these names to king Narendradeva and his father, which is given in the list below as: Bhi-ma-rjunadeva / Vis*n*ugupta, who reigned only briefly circa 640-641 until he was (according to the Tibetan accounts) usurped by a brother (or, at least, an uncle of Narendradeva).

For a list of the various Licchavi kings and their attributed dates, see: “A Kushan-period Sculpture from the reign of Jaya Varma-, A.D. 184/185. Kathmandu, Nepal.” by Kashinath Tamot and Ian Alsop © the authors and Asian Arts at: http://www.asianart.com/articles/jaya/kings.html

For a statue and inscription of a much earlier king from the Kathmandu Valley (and the names of the authors, etc), see: http://www.asianart.com/articles/jaya/index01_12.html

As soon as I can I will have another attempt at correcting and updating the article on Songtsen Gampo, and would appreciate any comments you might have then.

Cheers, John Hill 03:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] For the love of Tibet

Hi there Tibetologist. Glad to see we share a fascination with Tibet. I was the one who added the interior sections to Potala and Tashilhunpo and created Shalu Monastery and Ramoche Temple and also Tibetology article!!. I have just added a lot of work on Lhasa which has imporved considerably. Is there some kind of WikiProject Tibet? or something? or is this considered too nationalist? I would willingly be a part of it if it was. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 12:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Please help out the recently started Wikipedia:WikiProject Tibet which I proposed and got the green light by joining. THanks ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "I've been expecting you" 15:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Just wondering if you were born in the 7th century and was there in Lhasa until it suddenly came into existence in the 15th century. I know it is difficult that Tibetan history is often word of mouth but surely there is some near factual knowledge pre 15th century? I also wish you would reply to me and consider it quite rude that you don't. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Expecting you" "S.P.E.C.T.R.E" 14:31, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] J. W. de Jong

Thanks for your note on the discussion page of the J. W. de Jong article. You were right, I was reading a faulty obituary which said he was born in Canberra: http://www.dharmaavenue.com/faces-lives/j-w-de-jong.htm

I was able to confirm from another obituary, which I will list in the citations, that he was in fact born in Leiden.

Thanks again! Lotus 22:21, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tanguts and Songstän Gampo

Hi! Thanks for your note - I am rushing at the moment so I don't have time to check on the Tangut connection - but I do remember it was just a "translation" of the Chinese ethnic name Dangxian - I will check on all that later and change it if necessary - sometimes translators are pretty loose with these ethnic connections, as I'm sure you are well aware (for example, Qiang is often translated as "Tibetan"). As to getting rid of the weird transcriptions of Songstän Gampo, I couldn't agree more. Could you do this, please, as I think you know more about systems of romanising Tibetan than I do. Many thanks for checking first, though. Cheers and best wishes. John Hill 05:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

HI Tibetologist. HI sorry about my bitching - I thought you wre purposely ignoring me and thought it was out of disrespect you wouldn't reply and removed info. I too have a very keen interest in Tibet and I know as your name might suggest you have signficant expertise in this area. Forgive me but you can see why I might have thought this. However in the Lhasa article I will find the source but I have stressed now that it is debatable because of the fact Tibetan history was often passed down by word of mouth. I really do think there needs to be some reference to Jokhang and Sngsten Gampo even if all those details that were there beofre about the tribes in the Yarlung valley may not be true. From what I gather the area was governed as the Yarlung valley until the middle ages when Lhasa as a town rose to prominanece. Even if it mentions the early history which is debatable I think it is better than the history begining in the fiftenneth century. I too would like everything to completely sourced and true as well but I really think some early briefing is neeed on Lhasa however primitive. THanks ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Expecting you" "S.P.E.C.T.R.E" 11:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course many of the sites which provide information on Lhasa are Chinese and it is difficult to assess what is reliable because they are often not Tibetan sources. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Expecting you" "S.P.E.C.T.R.E" 11:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The source is here

I invite you to join Wikipedia:WikiProject Tibet. I'd like to see far better Tibetan articles on wikipedia some are very poor indeed and even missing and if you became part of the project it can surely only help. I have just created Category:Languages of Tibet also . All the best ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Expecting you" "S.P.E.C.T.R.E" 12:13, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


Welcome to the project my friend. I am very glad you have joined amd I hope we can develop a good understanding of each other. I hope we can work together and develop some great articles. Ifd you have any ideas for which articles are core and are in most serious need of development please creation a section on the main project page for project priorities and any proposals you might have regarding this in the project or my talk page. Encantado de conocerla!!! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ "Expecting you" Contribs 21:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you very much for your posting on my talk page

I would very much appreciate if you would send me the PDFs as per your kind offer. Your assistance is sincerely appreciated.
Email: <deleted email address> NB: 0 = zero = shunyata
Blót: blessings in blood
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 02:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Losar

Losar is currenting happening, how may I ensure that it is flagged as a current event? Is there a News Wiki article that this Wikipedia article can interwiki? How may I progress this? Is there anything else you recommend?
Thank you again for the four articles.
Blessings in the mindstream
B9 hummingbird hovering (talk • contribs) 06:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of Tibet

Gimme danger is looking for editors to improve the History of Tibet to Good Article status. Since you've contributed so much to the article in the past, I hope you'll be able to participate. (talk) 00:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)